Refute this OSAS argument for me

[theoldman]

theoldman in Christ,

You are making an assumption about these disciples that you cannot prove by way of scripture.

We can, however, prove by scripture that Judas was a believer and that he met all of the criteria for OSAS before losing his salvation.

John 17:12 which says Notice the reference to Judas. Judas is in the same group given to Jesus by the Father. This is the same language used in John 10:29 where it says, While no one can be snatched from the hand of Jesus or the hand of the Father, Judas was still lost. The only way that this can be properly understood is to see that while we have protection and we cannot be snatched from the hand of Jesus’ or the Father’s hand, we are still free to choose to leave that protection. It is for this reason that when we do rebel we must also repent. It is for this reason that the “repentant sinner that is rejoiced over in heaven is compared to a lost sheep.” It is for this reason that “if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul[that of the sinner] from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”

And make no mistake about Judas and his position as an apostle. Judas was one of those that believed at the marriage feast of Cana[Jn 2:11]. Judas is present when Peter makes his public confession of faith and Jesus is revealed as the son of God[Matt 16:15-18]. Like the rest of the twelve, Judas has healed the sick and cast out demons while preaching that the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Judas has done these things by the power of the Holy Spirit[Matt 6:8-13, Mark 3:14-19 and Mark 6:13]. Judas was also present when Jesus gave the apostles as a group the “power to bind and loose” in Matthew 18:18. Judas believed and is one of the saved until he “betrayed” Jesus.

Judas is even referred to as “elect.”(Gk,eklegomai - Strong’s word # 1586 – Lk 6:13, Jn 6:70; cf. Mk 13:20, Jn 13:18, 15:16,19, Acts 1:2), and then falls away and is damned.

In Matthew 14 we are told that Jesus tells the disciples[that is the twelve] to get into the boat and to cross to the other side of the sea. Jesus then walks on the water and Peter joins him and begins to sink beneath the waves as his faith falters. Jesus then helps Peter stay afloat and then they both get back into the boat. Once in the boat scripture tells us the following:

Matthew 14:33

Judas worshiped Jesus and declared his faith by stating that Jesus was truly the son of God. Judas was a believer but he **“became” **a betrayer.[Luke 6:16]
In Matthew 19:28 we also read this:
Obviously at that point in time, Judas was among the twelve and was going to be sitting on a throne with the rest of the twelve in heaven judging the twelve tribes of Israel. In the end that was not to be…Judas betrayed Jesus.

Jesus calls the apostles his friends. This includes Judas. He even individually refers to Judas as “friend” at the betrayal. Likewise we read this in Jn 13:18 in reference to Judas:

Jesus says:

This reference to the fulfillment of scripture leads us to Psalm 41:9 which says:

Judas is referred to as a bosom friend. Judas “had” equal standing with the apostles which he traded for thirty pieces of silver.

Once Judas betrayed, Jesus, he still could have properly repented and been restored to salvation. Unfortunately, even though Judas repented before the chief priest and the elders in returning the thirty pieces of silver, he did not have a godly grief of repentance. His repentance was the “worldly repentance” that Paul says “leads to death as opposed to a godly grief that produces a repentance that leads to salvation.”[See 2 Cor 7:10]” This is the difference between the repentance of Peter after denying Jesus and the worldly repentance of Judas after the betrayal. Jesus even tells Peter that Satan wished to sift him like wheat but that He[Jesus] had prayed for him so that Peter’s “faith would not fail” and that when He[Peter] turned back to Jesus, that he was to strengthen his brothers.[See Luke 22:32] Peter and Judas both had free will and made their choices. God’s grace was there for them. Peter repented with a godly grief, Judas repented with a worldly grief.

cont. on next post

all you have proved is that Judas counted as one of the twelve, Please read John 6 ;70
Jesus said Have I not chosen you twelve and one of you is a devil (Judas) Think now - would Jesus call one of the apostle a devil if he was a true believer I think not

 

[CWBetts]

all you have proved is that Judas counted as one of the twelve, Please read John 6 ;60
Jesus said Have I not chosen you twelve and one of you is a devil (Judas) Think now - would Jesus call one of the apostle a devil if he was a true believer I think not

Judas baptized, heals, and cast out demons. I disagree with your analysis that Judas never believed.

 

[Pax]

all you have proved is that Judas counted as one of the twelve, Please read John 6 ;70
Jesus said Have I not chosen you twelve and one of you is a devil (Judas) Think now - would Jesus call one of the apostle a devil if he was a true believer I think not

theoldman in Christ,

I proved a great deal more than you contend. Likewise, believers that fall away and are damned could certainly be called devils. I proved to you that Judas was a “believer”. In order for you to refute my commentary, you must prove that Judas was not a believer. Judas met every criteria of belief, and he thus met all of the criteria of OSAS.

Please refute what I’ve given you point by point or please concede the point.

God bless.

 

[Pax]

theoldman in Christ,

Would other examples from scripture of fallen believers convince you?

 

[Big_Dummy]

Being outside of time.

Thanks

 

[Tomster]

NO

Interesting!

I have addressed an atheist on another thread who claims to have been a believer at one time and has finally despaired [my term]. This person no longer believes.

Care to comment.

 

[UnityofTrinity]

This is really interesting, supporters of OSAS will answer when asked about the faithful being strayed away that: “They’re not saved in the first place”, now consider those people who once also a believer of OSAS, also claim a true believer can’t lose his eternal security, also claim to be “born again”, then he later on also strays away. So in the other word, there’s no way to be able to know if you were saved in the first place. I would like to ask theoldman in Christ:“How do you know you were saved in the first place?”, obviously there’s no way to know, you can’t know for sure that you will never stray away from God?

 

[CWBetts]

This is really interesting, supporters of OSAS will answer when asked about the faithful being strayed away that: “They’re not saved in the first place”, now consider those people who once also a believer of OSAS, also claim a true believer can’t lose his eternal security, also claim to be “born again”, then he later on also strays away. So in the other word, there’s no way to be able to know if you were saved in the first place. I would like to ask theoldman in Christ:“How do you know you were saved in the first place?”, obviously there’s no way to know, you can’t know for sure that you will never stray away from God?

That is really the crux of the matter. It is here where we see OSAS start to self-destruct into a heaping ruin.

 

[panevino]

Originally Posted by CWBetts
But is it possible for a believer to lose their faith?

NO

Hi Theoldman,

How do u reconcile?

Luke8:13 They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, **if **thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

 

[jlhargus]

Argument -

"Jesus said that "I give them eternal life". What is so eternal about eternal life, if I can lose it once I have gained it?

In other words, if I am saved and have eternal life in me, then I have ETERNAL life in me, or life in me for eternity. If something is eternal, it can never be lost."
How would you respond to this?

JL: Eternal life would be the ETERNAL LIFE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT indwelling the soul. If we desecrate the temple of our body, thru mortal sin, the Holy Spirit (eternal life) cannot dwell in an unclean temple.

Satan and all demons have IMMORTAL LIFE as they do not die. Good Angles have ETERNAL LIFE because God is in them. When the dead are raised, the just will be raised to eternal life, because God lives in them. The raised unjust will be immortal because death has been destroyed they do not have life but existence.

 

[jlhargus]

Argument -

"Jesus said that "I give them eternal life". What is so eternal about eternal life, if I can lose it once I have gained it?

In other words, if I am saved and have eternal life in me, then I have ETERNAL life in me, or life in me for eternity. If something is eternal, it can never be lost."
How would you respond to this?

JL: Eternal life would be the ETERNAL LIFE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT indwelling the soul. If we desecrate the temple of our body, the Holy Spirit (eternal life) cannot dwell in an unclean temple.

Satan and all demons have IMMORTAL LIFE as they do not die. Good Angles have ETERNAL LIFE because God is in them. When the dead are raised, the just will be raised to eternal life, because God lives in them. The raised unjust will be immortal because death has been destroyed they do not have life but existence.

 

[jlhargus]

But is it possible for a believer to lose their faith?

NO

[1Cor6:9 Know ye not that THE UNRIGHTEOUS SHALL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,] Why would Paul waste his time writting to BELEIVERS and warning about things that can’t change their so called OSAS status, what’s the point? How many times does one have to be a fornicator, to be unrighteous? How many times does one have to be an idolater to be unrighteous?

]Rms6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.] How many times do you have to commit adultery, before you reap it’s wages? How many times do you have to murder, before you reap it’s wages?

[Hb6:4 For it is impossible for THOSE WHO WERE ONCE ENLIGHTENED, AND have TASTED OF THE HEAVENLY GIFT, and were MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, 5 And have TASTED THE GOOD WORD OF GOD, AND THE POWERS OF THE WORLD TO COME, 6 IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY, TO RENEW THEM AGAIN UNTO REPENTANCE; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.] How can you RENEW a person who has never been FIRST RENEWED?

Paul is addressing a Christian community of those who have been ENLIGHTENED. They are not on the brink of being enlightened they are ENLIGHTENED and HAVE TASTED OF THE HEAVENLY GIFT, MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, They have the indwelling Holy Ghost.

Paul warns BELIEVERS, of the danger of apostasy, alluding to those ONCE Jewish Christians, who LEFT, fell away from the Christian community and returned to Judaism. Once again placing their faith in circumcision and animal sacrifice, which can never renew them again to repentance taking away sin. It is impossible for them to repent and be renewed, apart from Christ and the Christian Community. As long as they remain hostile to the Gospel, it is impossible to renew them unto repentance.

[Gal5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 **CHRIST IS BECOME OF NO EFFECT UNTO YOU, whosoever of you are justified by the law; YE ARE FALLEN FROM GRACE.] Judaizers (Jewish Christians) who are circumcised, and claim Christians must be circumcised, are FALLEN FROM GRACE. In order to be, “fallen from grace”, they must first HAVE been in GRACE.

If one hears and rejects the gospel they have not FALLEN from anything, have they? They simply REMAIN in their FALLEN STATE. If they are enlightened and share in the Holy Spirit then they are Holy Spirit filled believers and CAN FALL AWAY, because they have first possed what they have fallen from.

[1Tm5:11 But the YOUNGER WIDOWS REFUSE: for WHEN THEY HAVE BEGUN TO WAX WANTON AGAINST CHRIST, they will marry; 12 Having damnation, BECAUSE THEY HAVE CAST OFF THEIR FIRST FAITH. 13 And withal they learn to be idle, wandering about from house to house; and not only idle, but tattlers also and busybodies, speaking things which they ought not. 14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully. 15 FOR SOME ARE ALREADY **TURNED ASIDE AFTER SATAN.] These are young Christian widows who have turned from the faith AFTER Satan.

JL: The prodigal son did not lose his sonship, but as his father said to his brother, he WAS DEAD and NOW he is alive. He BECAME a DEAD SON when he squandered the gift his father gave him, living in sin, He only became a LIVING SON again when he repented and returned to his father, seeking and asking forgiveness. If the son had not repented and returned he would have never entered his father’s house again. The scripture tells us Judas repented, yet he didn’t return to Christ for forgiveness. He despaired and killed himself, Mt27:1-5.

[1Cor10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. 10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. 11 Now all THESE THINGS HAPPENED unto them FOR EXAMPLES: and THEY ARE WRITTEN FOR OUR ADMONITION, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 12 Wherefore LET HIM THAT THINKETH HE STANDETH TAKE HEED LEST HE FALL.] Why warn people who can’t lose salvation?

 

[Zooey]

theoldman in Christ,

I addressed this contention in my commentary and showed it to be false. A simple statement to the contrary does not in any way undo what was given to you. You need to refute point by point all that was presented in order to make a meaningful argument. The scripture clearly indicates that Judas “was lost.” The scripture never contends that he “never had salvation.” That is an assumption on your part based upon your doctrine. That is eisegesis rather than exegesis.

God bless.

:clapping:

Judas baptized, heals, and cast out demons. I disagree with your analysis that Judas never believed.

:clapping:

theoldman in Christ,

I proved a great deal more than you contend. Likewise, believers that fall away and are damned could certainly be called devils. I proved to you that Judas was a “believer”. In order for you to refute my commentary, you must prove that Judas was not a believer. Judas met every criteria of belief, and he thus met all of the criteria of OSAS.

Please refute what I’ve given you point by point or please concede the point.

God bless.

:clapping:

This is really interesting, supporters of OSAS will answer when asked about the faithful being strayed away that: “They’re not saved in the first place”, now consider those people who once also a believer of OSAS, also claim a true believer can’t lose his eternal security, also claim to be “born again”, then he later on also strays away. So in the other word, there’s no way to be able to know if you were saved in the first place. I would like to ask theoldman in Christ:“How do you know you were saved in the first place?”, obviously there’s no way to know, you can’t know for sure that you will never stray away from God?

:clapping:

 

[Tomster]

Every non believer is lost until they come to be a true believer

Painting with a pretty broad brush aren’t we?

Consider this if you would:

“We protest vigorously against assigning a virtue to the act of baptism that it does not possess . . . It is not the act of baptism, submitted to by one person and administered by another that brings about the remission of sins or provides salvation. It is a symbol and only a symbol of the blessed truths upon which remission of sins, salvation, and eternal life depend. When one accepts Jesus Christ by faith he is saved with all that salvation means. Therefore, nothing that comes after that is essential to one’s salvation.” - Austin Crouch, “Is Baptism Essential to Salvation?”, Nashville, Broadman Press, 1953, p. 73.

Baptist writers arrive at this conclusion by ignoring the constant tradition of Christianity up to the Reformation, and attributing orthodoxy to those heretics who denied the necessity of baptism for salvation. Also no provision is made for the destiny of infants who die without either faith or baptism, except an appeal to the theory of absolute predestination, which negatives the need not only of baptism but also of faith as a condition for salvation.

Care to reply?