Refute this OSAS argument for me

[Catholic_Dude]

Argument -

"Jesus said that "I give them eternal life". What is so eternal about eternal life, if I can lose it once I have gained it?

In other words, if I am saved and have eternal life in me, then I have ETERNAL life in me, or life in me for eternity. If something is eternal, it can never be lost."

How would you respond to this?

1 Jn 3:15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
The word for “abiding in” is the same one used in John 15:1-10. Eternal life in John is not so much a ‘status’ (i.e. a ticket to heaven) as it is a state of being: you have eternal life when you’re in communion with God - is this not the essence of having the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit in your soul?! The text above shows that mortal sin can cause eternal life to stop being in you, which directly refutes a eternal security reading of that phrase.

 

[RHannosh619]

You can very simple find the flaws in the OSAS doctrine.

Do what Jesus does, and answer his questio with a question.

“So if somebody is “saved”, and they committed suicide, are they automatically in heaven?”, And if this was the case, since there “OSAS” after all, then why wouldn’t everyone want to commit suicide after being saved to be with our Lord and Savior."

That is a very extreme example, but it does its job, and shows the flawed logic in that doctrine.

Another great example… “So If i was saved, but then found very much truth in Islam, If i converted to Islam, (or even more extreme, Atheism), Would I still go to heaven with Jesus, even though I don’t believe in him as my Savior anymore?”

It is conclusive that salvation is something that must be worked on for a lifetime, in order to receieve Eternal Life.

 

[Della]

You can very simple find the flaws in the OSAS doctrine.

Do what Jesus does, and answer his questio with a question.

“So if somebody is “saved”, and they committed suicide, are they automatically in heaven?”, And if this was the case, since there “OSAS” after all, then why wouldn’t everyone want to commit suicide after being saved to be with our Lord and Savior."

That is a very extreme example, but it does its job, and shows the flawed logic in that doctrine.

Another great example… “So If i was saved, but then found very much truth in Islam, If i converted to Islam, (or even more extreme, Atheism), Would I still go to heaven with Jesus, even though I don’t believe in him as my Savior anymore?”

It is conclusive that salvation is something that must be worked on for a lifetime, in order to receieve Eternal Life.

Believers in OSAS would counter that such persons were never really saved to begin with. Of course, that begs the question: “If that’s so, how can anyone really know he’s saved?”

 

[Philthy]

Argument -

"Jesus said that "I give them eternal life". What is so eternal about eternal life, if I can lose it once I have gained it?

In other words, if I am saved and have eternal life in me, then I have ETERNAL life in me, or life in me for eternity. If something is eternal, it can never be lost."

How would you respond to this?

In addition to other excellent comments, I would point out that Christ describes eternal life as knowing God. Not in the way that your friend above does. What does Jesus say eternal life is in Scripture? “Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.” Eternal life is knowing God - John 17:3

 

[Philthy]

If you are quoting John 10: 18 or thereabouts Jesus is talking about the elect (his sheep). those that are not of the elect do not hear his voice. Those that are of the elect (his sheep) here his voice and he gives them eternal and they shall never perish. Sounds like OSAS to me

Well, I can sort of understand how it might sound like OSAS to you. You have been taught OSAS, right? Perhaps if it were the only verse in Scripture you might have a point! As it stands, however, there are many verses of Scripture that speak to the tenuous nature of salvation during this life and how the lures of the world “wage war” on our souls (1Peter 2:11). If you are truly interested in reconsidering your position, let me know. Most of the NT is devoted to “warning” believers about persevering in faith, hope and love so that they do not lose their inheritance in the kingdom of God - something that would have no place in Scripture if OSAS were true.

Blessings!

 

[theoldman]

The second part of John 10 : 28 states “and they (the elect) shall never perish”. Now when does never not mean NEVER In the greek it is extremely emphatic. NEVER MEANS NEVER

 

[Pax]

The second part of John 10 : 28 states “and they (the elect) shall never perish”. Now when does never not mean NEVER In the greek it is extremely emphatic. NEVER MEANS NEVER

theoldman in Christ,

I’m off to work so I cannot answer you now. I will do so this evening if someone doesn’t beat me to it.

God bless and have a great day.

 

[CWBetts]

The second part of John 10 : 28 states “and they (the elect) shall never perish”. Now when does never not mean NEVER In the greek it is extremely emphatic. NEVER MEANS NEVER

Once we receive our final reward, we will never perish, but the reward is a future event. We are not assured that we will receive it in this life, but only that we must strive towards it.

 

[MarcoPolo]

The second part of John 10 : 28 states “and they (the elect) shall never perish”. Now when does never not mean NEVER In the greek it is extremely emphatic. NEVER MEANS NEVER

The verse says: “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” So, like Carl just said, no one who has entered eternal life will perish. That’s true.

But the verse doesn’t say a person who is in a position to inherit eternal life will “never” forfeit his inheritance. And there’s abundant Scriptural evidence just in this thread for that notion.

 

[MarcoPolo]

An interesting article regarding Luther’s letter to Melanchthon:
tquid.sharpens.org/sin_boldly.htm

I think James Swan errs in thinking Luther’s thought processes were always consistent and therefore if he said works are necessary in one place, we must assume he always has this in mind in another. In this article, he essentially says when Luther said “sin boldly” it was “hyperbole” correct?

However, I am off-hand familiar with at least one other exhortation of Luther’s that supports the interpretation that Luther really had no problem with someone “sinning boldly.” That quotation is:And here Paul speaketh not of the ceremonial law; for he sacrificed in the Temple, circumcised Timothy, shaved his head at Cenchrea. These things had he not done, if he had been dead to the ceremonial law, but he speaketh of the whole law. Therefore the whole law, whether it be ceremonial or moral, to a Christian is utterly abrogate, for he is dead unto it. Not that the law is utterly taken away nay, it remaineth, liveth, and reigneth still in the wicked. (Luther, Commentary on Galatians, 1535)

 

[JonNC]

=MarcoPolo;6889061]I think James Swan errs in thinking Luther’s thought processes were always consistent and therefore if he said works are necessary in one place, we must assume he always has this in mind in another. In this article, he essentially says when Luther said “sin boldly” it was “hyperbole” correct?

Hyperbole, yes. But more importantly, not a statement of doctrine, as it is not complete.
Luther - anyone! - when speaking to someone about which they know much and agree on, will leave some assumed details unsaid.
Example: when reading the following quote from Cr. Ratzinger to German Lutheran bishop Johannes Hanselmann:

"I count among the most important results of the ecumenical dialogues the insight that the issue of the eucharist cannot be narrowed to the problem of ‘validity.’ Even a theology oriented to the concept of succession, such as that which holds in the Catholic and in the Orthodox church, need not in any way deny the salvation-granting presence of the Lord in a Lutheran Lord’s Supper."

No one, including the Bishop, thought the Cardinal was disagreeing with Catholic teaching. He knew that both of them understood that teaching, and in a personal letter, felt no need to go over something they both already knew.

However, I am off-hand familiar with at least one other exhortation of Luther’s that supports the interpretation that Luther really had no problem with someone “sinning boldly.” That quotation is:And here Paul speaketh not of the ceremonial law; for he sacrificed in the Temple, circumcised Timothy, shaved his head at Cenchrea. These things had he not done, if he had been dead to the ceremonial law, but he speaketh of the whole law. Therefore the whole law, whether it be ceremonial or moral, to a Christian is utterly abrogate, for he is dead unto it. Not that the law is utterly taken away nay, it remaineth, liveth, and reigneth still in the wicked. (Luther, Commentary on Galatians, 1535)

Melanchthon and Luther both knew and believed that repeated and unrepented sin drive out the Holy Spirit, and that confession and repentance were essential in Christian life.

Luther’s Smalkald Articles:
"It is, accordingly, necessary to know and to teach that when holy men, still having and feeling original sin, also daily repenting of and striving with it, happen to fall into manifest sins, as David into adultery, murder, and blasphemy, that then faith and the Holy Ghost has departed from them [they cast out faith and the Holy Ghost]. For the Holy Ghost does not permit sin to have dominion, to gain the upper hand so as to be accomplished, but represses and restrains it so that it must not do what it wishes. But if it does what it wishes, the Holy Ghost and faith are [certainly] not present. For St. John says, 1 John 3:9: Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, … and he cannot sin. And yet it is also the truth when the same St. John says, 1:8: If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

“Daily repenting and striving with it.” If Luther thought we were free to sin, why would talk about daily repenting and striving with it?

Jon

 

[Pax]

The second part of John 10 : 28 states “and they (the elect) shall never perish”. Now when does never not mean NEVER In the greek it is extremely emphatic. NEVER MEANS NEVER

theoldman in Christ,

As promised, I’ll give an answer to your concerns.

Proponents of OSAS stake the teaching heavily on Jesus statement that

“…I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand.”

Contrary to what you might think, this verse does not add up to what those that teach OSAS would like it to.

Naturally, Catholics say “Amen” to this verse but we understand it a little differently. OSAS proponents apparently believe that this verse demonstrates that the “true believer” cannot be lost because Jesus says, “they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of my hand.” We believe that this verse has to be understood in the greater context of the gospel and that it requires a little analysis to be fully appreciated.

This verse has to be read along side John 17:7-12 which reads,

“Now they know that everything that thou hast given me is from thee; for I have given them the words which thou gavest me, and they have received them and know in truth that I came from thee; and they have believed that thou didst send me. I am praying for them; I am not praying for the world but for those whom thou hast given me, for they are thine; all mine are thine, and thine are mine, and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name, which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. While I was with them, I kept them in thy name, which thou hast given me; I have guarded them, and none of them is lost but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Notice the reference to Judas. Judas is in the same group given to Jesus by the Father. This is the same language used in John 10:29 where it says,

” My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.”

While no one can be snatched from the hand of Jesus or the hand of the Father, Judas was still lost. The only way that this can be properly understood is to see that while we have protection, and we cannot be snatched from Jesus’s or the Father’s hand, we are still free to choose to leave that protection. It is for this reason that when we do rebel we must also repent. Moreover, if Jesus was teaching OSAS he would not have been praying to the Father for the apostles and for us in this fashion. There would simply be no need for these prayers for they would have no impact on our salvation because our salvation would be a done deal.

I hope this helps. If you have further questions, such as the status of Judas, we can explore that as well.

God bless.

 

[Zooey]

Once we receive our final reward, we will never perish, but the reward is a future event. We are not assured that we will receive it in this life, but only that we must strive towards it.

 

[UnityofTrinity]

If you are quoting John 10: 18 or thereabouts Jesus is talking about the elect (his sheep). those that are not of the elect do not hear his voice. Those that are of the elect (his sheep) here his voice and he gives them eternal and they shall never perish. Sounds like OSAS to me

So are you telling me that God is only electing some people to be saved(Unlimited Election), and elect some to hell? This doesn’t sound like my God, this doesn’t sound like the Father whom I love, the Father that I come to when everything come crumbling down. The God you’re describing is not my God, he’s not the God that want everyman to come to Him, He’s not the God that died on the cross for humanity.

 

[Zooey]

So are you telling me that God is only electing some people to be saved(Unlimited Election), and elect some to hell? This doesn’t sound like my God, this doesn’t sound like the Father whom I love, the Father that I come to when everything come crumbling down. The God you’re describing is not my God, he’s not the God that want everyman to come to Him, He’s not the God that died on the cross for humanity.

Amen!
I would like to hear the answer to Unity of Trinity’s question, too.
Talk of “the elect” being born destined to be saved, & others born destined for hell sounds to me more like the actions of one of those little petty dictators who set themselves up as “saviours” and who end up leading their followers into all manner of atrocities…and, yes, hell.

It does not sound like the Christ of Calvary.
It does not sound like the Father of all, Who was “not willing that any should perish”.
It does not sound like the precious Holy Spirit.

Truthfullly, “theoldman”, it doesn’t sound like God at all.:nope: :nope: :nope:
But hey! That’s me…

 

[theoldman]

theoldman in Christ,

As promised, I’ll give an answer to your concerns.

Proponents of OSAS stake the teaching heavily on Jesus statement that Contrary to what you might think, this verse does not add up to what those that teach OSAS would like it to.

Naturally, Catholics say “Amen” to this verse but we understand it a little differently. OSAS proponents apparently believe that this verse demonstrates that the “true believer” cannot be lost because Jesus says, “they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of my hand.” We believe that this verse has to be understood in the greater context of the gospel and that it requires a little analysis to be fully appreciated.

This verse has to be read along side John 17:7-12 which reads, Notice the reference to Judas. Judas is in the same group given to Jesus by the Father. This is the same language used in John 10:29 where it says,

While no one can be snatched from the hand of Jesus or the hand of the Father, Judas was still lost. The only way that this can be properly understood is to see that while we have protection, and we cannot be snatched from Jesus’s or the Father’s hand, we are still free to choose to leave that protection. It is for this reason that when we do rebel we must also repent. Moreover, if Jesus was teaching OSAS he would not have been praying to the Father for the apostles and for us in this fashion. There would simply be no need for these prayers for they would have no impact on our salvation because our salvation would be a done deal.

I hope this helps. If you have further questions, such as the status of Judas, we can explore that as well.

God bless.

The intercession ministry of Jesus Christ, is both past and present,also guarantees our salvation. when He walked upon this earth,Hey prayed not only for the apostles but for future believers (John 17:9 -17:20) He prayed not for the lost world (v9); that is our respossibility. He prayed that we might be kept by the Father from the evil one (v v. 11, 15. He prayed that we mignt have His joy fufilled in us (v. 13). He prayed for our sancification through the word of truth (v.17) He prayed for our spiritual unity (v.21). He prayed the we might be made perfect in one (v.23) He prayed that we might be with him in heaven (v.24). He prayed that we might behold his glory (v.24).
the Scriptural principle of prayer: all prayer prayed in the will of God by the Holy Spirit will be answered by God. Was this prayer expressed in the will of God? Yes, completely, from beginning to the end. It therefore, will be answered totally.

 

[UnityofTrinity]

The intercession ministry of Jesus Christ, is both past and present,also guarantees our salvation. when He walked upon this earth,Hey prayed not only for the apostles but for future believers (John 17:9 -17:20) He prayed not for the lost world (v9); that is our respossibility. He prayed that we might be kept by the Father from the evil one (v v. 11, 15. He prayed that we mignt have His joy fufilled in us (v. 13). He prayed for our sancification through the word of truth (v.17) He prayed for our spiritual unity (v.21). He prayed the we might be made perfect in one (v.23) He prayed that we might be with him in heaven (v.24). He prayed that we might behold his glory (v.24).
the Scriptural principle of prayer: all prayer prayed in the will of God by the Holy Spirit will be answered by God. Was this prayer expressed in the will of God? Yes, completely, from beginning to the end. It therefore, will be answered totally.

If you’re stating, my friend, that people once saved will always saved, and the n people who leave the faith were not “saved” in the first place, you just admit to yourselves that the Catholic doctrine is right, but just arranged in different words. I assure you there were many people who also said the same thing, that they had been saved, and nothing can snatch them out of the hand of God. Look at Dan Barker, he was a minister didn’t he? He also believed that no one could snatch him and that he’s already saved for eternity. Dan Barker now is one of the leading atheist of America who could be compared with people like Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens. So in short, even people who say that “I’m secured” doesn’t know for sure that they will be secured forever, even when you say you’re assured of salvation, there’s no certainty that one day you might turn into someone like Dan Barker.

Jesus said in John 15:1-2 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that bearth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may yield more fruit”.

Please remember the story of the Son and the Father, even after the son had returned to the father, are you sure that the son will never leave the father in the future? I wouldn’t place my bet on that.

Jesus pray according to God’s will, but God’s will also include human freewill, do you think God will for people to go to hell? You think God wills for people to leave their faith? You think God wills for people to attack in the 9/11? God wills things, but His will can’t be forced upon man. The notion of God’s will remind me of an argument of one of my old Fundamentalist Protestant. When I asked him how can we be sure that once saved, always saved, what will happen if the Christian do evil deeds? He said: “The Holy Spirit will make us good”, that statement just made me laugh, because the Holy Spirit is only our guide, He could inspire us to do good, but it’s us who make the choice to either respond to the Holy Spirit or to the Devil.

 

[atmmgraves]

theoldman:

Greetings brother in Christ. First, hopefully you understand that there is agreement between you and Catholics on the issue of the necessity of faith. Faith is the common denominator. It must be present. On this we agree. However, we part ways on your - and most Protestants in general - apparent inability to account for the volumes of scripture references which note that faith must be accompanied by works. This seemingly willfull practice of ignoring very plain-spoken scripture on this issue makes me scratch my head. Many “Bible-Believing” denominations, evangelicals, etc., insist that the bible is “it” and it is literal and is all there is to Christ (despite the bible itself noting that it is not…hmmm…). Yet, when shown clear and convicing and bountiful and overwhelming scripture support for the Catholic view on so many issues - faith and works, the Eucharist, the Sacraments, etc - suddenly the bible is not literal. It becoms merely symbolic here, or or ignored in favor of a few citations here and there which better support the Protestants point of view.

theoldman, the Catholic Church takes the entire bible into account. We don’t pick and choose - we include it all. After all - Catholics wrote and agreed upon the canon of the very New Testament you read. Do you not find it ironic that Protestants have taken from the Catholic Church - and for their own use - this bible, distorted its contents and claimed to undersrtand it better than Catholics, and have for 5 centuries proceeded to use this precious gift as a weapon against its very writer? I certainly do.

Here is some reading:

Matt. 5:2-11 - Jesus’ teaching of the beatitudes goes beyond faith - being pure, merciful, and peacemakers are all good works. They are acts of the will that are necessary for a right relationship with God.

Matt. 5:16 - Jesus confirms this by teaching, “let your light shine before men that they may see your ‘good works’ and give glory to God.” Good works glorify God and increase our justification before the Father.

Matt. 5:39-42 - give your striker the other cheek, give away your cloak, and go with him two miles. This faith in action, not faith alone.

Matt. 5:44-47 - this means even loving our enemies and praying for those who persecute us. Love is a good work, an act of the will.

Matt. 6:12 - forgive us our sins, not by how much faith we have, but as we forgive those who trespass against us.

Matt. 7:19-23 - just saying “Lord, Lord” and accepting Jesus as personal Savior is not enough. We must also bear the fruit of good works.

Matt. 19:16-22 - Jesus teaches the man to sell all he has and give it to the poor. It is not just about accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior. We also need good works by keeping Jesus’ commandments.

Matt. 22:39; Mark 12:31 - Jesus says You shall love your neighbor as yourself. Love is a good work - an act of the intellect and will.

Mark 9:39 - Jesus said no one who does good works in His name will be able to soon after speak evil of Him. Good works justify us before God.

Luke 6:46-47 - the Lord asks us to do what he tells us, and that is to keep His commandments, not just “accept” Him as personal Lord and Savior.

Luke 6:20-38 - again, beatitudes, the love of enemies, giving to the needy, forgiving, bearing fruit - all these good works justify a man before God.

Luke 8:21 - Jesus says that His mother and brothers are those who hear the word of God and do it.

John 5:24 - note that “eternal life” here means sanctifying grace (the life of God within us). We can choose to fall from this grace.

John 5:36, 10:37-38 - Jesus emphasizes that His works testify to who He is. We must imitate Christ’s works to be more fully united with Him.
John 5:39-42 - knowing the Scriptures is not enough if you do not have love in your heart.

John 8:31-32 - Jesus requires works even from those who believe in Him. Mere belief is not enough.

John 13:34-35 - Jesus gives us a new commandment, that we love one another as He loves us. He commands love which is an act of our will.

John 14:15 - Jesus says, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.” This requires works, not just faith (and not faith alone).

John 14:21 – he who hears my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. This is doing good works for others.

John 15:8 – Jesus requires us to bear the good fruit of works if we are to be His disciples. These fruits are merits in Catholic teaching, all borne from God’s unmerited gift of grace.

John 15:10 - if you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, as I have kept the Father’s commandments.

John 15:12 - this is My commandment that you love one another as I have loved you. Love is both a cause and the fruit of our justification.

Rom. 12:10 - Paul commands us to love one another. Love is a good work, an act of the intellect and will, not just a feeling.

1 Cor. 3:8 – Paul teaches that he who plants and he who waters are equal, and each shall receive his wages according to his labor.

1 Cor. 13:2 – Paul teaches that if our faith moves mountains, but we have not the works of love, we are nothing indeed.

1 Cor. 13:13 - abide in faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. Love is the greatest work which justifies us (not faith, and most importantly, not faith alone!)

1 Tim. 6:18-19 - we are to do good and be rich in good works thus laying up a good foundation for a chance at eternal life.

 

[atmmgraves]

and some more…

Titus 1:16 - people claim to know God, but their deeds deny Him. Like Jesus, it is our works that testify to our faith in Christ.

1 John 2:3-5 - and by this we may be sure that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. This requires good works, not faith alone.

1 John 3:23 - God’s commandment is to believe in His Son Jesus and love one another. Belief is not enough, but good works to perfect that belief.

1 John 4:7-21 - and this commandment we have from Him, that he who loves God should love his brother also. John gives us repeated exhortations to love one another.

1 John 5:2-3 - we know we love God and God’s children when we keep His commandments. We need to love which is manifested in good works and not faith alone.

2 John 6 - we must love one another and keep Jesus’ commandments. We must cooperate with Christ’s grace.

God bless.

 

[theoldman]

Let’s talk about this thing free will, so called. I grow up in a Baptist family, left when I was seventeen and said I would never be a Baptist again and that I would never be a Christain. I did anything and everything that I wanted too. But the more I resisted God the more miserable I became. I knew that God was calling but for over fifteen years I resisted untill God finally broke my will (long story) and I had to come to Him or my life would have been short and he lead me back to the Baptist.
The point, God,s will is mighter than yours!