Refute this please?

[anthony022071]

I’m not sure what you mean about “observance of repentance” - God knows whether we’ve repented or not, so we’d basically be persuading ourselves, but the rest makes sense.

When I say “observance” I mean the act or practice of keeping a law,duty,custom,or rule – in this case of repenting. There is a need for observances and coherence in the faith. Without it,people will shrug off even the most important things, like the need to repent,as Protestants incline to do.

 

[anthony022071]

Well that’s one translation…the one I found for what I think you were referring to was “All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.” I’m not sure what the second part means - “unto” is being used in a way I’m not familiar with - but it does seem to be there in black and white, assuming 1 John was inspired.

“Mortal” and “unto death” mean the same thing,as in “a mortal wound”, which means a wound which can or does lead to death.

 

[Sabda]

That makes sense to me, but it still doesn’t address the issue of whether or not mortal sin is any different from venial sin, or whether penance is necessary as told to us through revelation.

You know, their right there is no difference between simply being angry and yelling and screaming at someone and actually killing in angry. YEP, it’s all the same sin! That is one of the major problems with this type of thing. They try soooo hard to deny the difference in sin that they make the theology they set up look ridiculous. If there is no difference in sin then everything should have the same punishment.

Their understanding of mortal and venial sin is also wrong.

Working definitions of mortal and venial sins could be: Mortal Sin is “sin causing spiritual death,” and Venial Sin is “sin that can be forgiven

Mortal sin CAN be forgiven while you are still alive, just as venial sin is forgiven. The proper definition is Mortal sin causes spiritual death while venial sin just makes the soul sick.

Colossians 2:13 and 14 confirm this fact, “When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He [God] made you alive together with Him [Christ], having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.”

What happened to people when they died before Christ’s death on the cross? HINT, they sure didn’t go to heaven! What happened after Christ’s death and resurrection? HINT, people started being allowed into heaven. That is what the Biblical passage is referring too.

God has “…forgiven us all our transgressions…”. Not just the sins of the past, but all of them. They have been nailed to the cross and taken out of the way.

So after Baptism I can do whatever I want with out having to worry about the pains of hell? This is OSAS!!!

When Jesus, on the cross, stated, “It is finished” (John 19:30), he was stating that he had fulfilled all that was necessary to grant forgiveness and eternal life to those who would believe in Him.

Actually the word “finished” according to the Strong’s Concordance has several different meanings.
Original Greek word is teleo means:
to end, complete, execute, conclude, discharge
finish
fulfill
accomplish
pay
perform
expire
make an end
fill up
go over
Frequently this word signifies, not merely to terminate a thing but, but to carry out a thing to the full.

Christ was referring to the Passover. The sacrifice of the unblemished lamb had been completed and of course what do you do with the lamb after it’s been sacrificed?
Scott Hahn gives a really interesting talk on this. If you check out what an official Jewish Passover looks like you’ll see that it backs all this up beautifully. Check out #14.

The Bible does teach by word (Galatians 6:7 and 8) and example (2 Samuel 11-20) that when a Christian gets involved in sin, he or she may reap temporal, physical, emotional, mental and/or spiritual consequences. But the believer never has to reacquire God’s forgiveness due to personal sin because God’s Word declares that God’s wrath toward the believer’s sin was satisfied completely at the cross.

Once again this is OSAS! If we do not need need to ask God for forgiveness than what in the world all those passages that talk about REPENT etc, doing in the Bible? Why did Christ tell the apostles when he breathed on them “whose sins you forgive are forgiven, whose sins you retain are retained”? Why does James say “confess your sins to one another”? I could list a number of other passages that deal with this!

Does the Bible teach that a person who is truly saved by God through Christ can lose his salvation and regain it? It clearly does not teach this

BINGO, Like I said OSAS! There an awful lot of ifs in the Bible. “If you love me”, “If you obey”, etc…

If one follows the concepts of mortal and venial sin, he or she may be deceived into viewing sin with a flippant attitude, thinking that he or she can sin at will and simply seek God’s forgiveness at a point of personal desire.

By the same token if one believes that they can never go to hell they can end up believing that they can do what ever they want since they are already saved.

As far as penance goes, when you break a window do you get off scott free? Of course not. Well you be forgiven for breaking the window? Yes, but you still need to do something to make satisfaction for breaking the window, i.e. either fix it or pay for a new one. That is penance.

 

[anthony022071]

Well of course we should make reparations to others we have hurt. Otherwise we wouldn’t really be sorry then, right? But what does saying ten Our Fathers have to do with replacing a stolen bike, or something?

Repeatedly praying the Our Father,or other formulaic prayers,is intended to meditate on the meaning of the words,to purify our minds and hearts and to become more devoted,and to invoke the aid of Heaven.

 

[YADA]

I do not think that human nature spoorts your proposition…Non christians feel bad about doing things that are ‘not right’ the universal laws that are written on the hearts of men. Our conscience tells us we have wronged and we feel bad…but just feeling bad does not always equate to then *feeling better. *And why not? Many reasons, we have an inate sense of justice…think of the small child who can quickly make the charge of “thats not fair” A sense of fairness and justice demands something on our part. An action that involves much more than just an internal feeling.

What is it we feel internally. Sometimes when we sin and feel bad it has more to do with being caught…where is the repentance in feeling bad that we are found out? No where…reconcilliation is not just a formality of confessing followed by 10 Our Fathers…that is an insanity.

Reconcilliation involves and examination of conscience, a recognition of sin [sins of comission and omission], true remorse forhaving sin against God and others, a desire to overcome the sin, a firm attempt to remove yourself from situations that lead to sin and making whatever reparations you can, including time spent in prayer liek saying 10 Our Fathers. [Personally, I have nevver been given a penance of just 10 Our Fathers - but why would you dismiss praying in the manner Jesus taught ten times…]

 

[banjo]

Well the former is from the OT, before Jesus died for all our sins, and the second doesn’t seem to reference sin in any way…how do we know that’s why they’re fasting? And where do all the other forms of penance come from?

The rest of the stuff seems to similarly not mention sin as the reason for fasting, and others aren’t even from the Bible.

Ceaseless,

Are you writing off the OT?

 

[CeaselessMedik]

Ceaseless,

Are you writing off the OT?

Didn’t Jesus write it off, at least partially? We don’t follow the Jewish eating rules, I don’t see people wearing sackcloths and ashes on their heads (well, except for Ash Wednesday), etc.

 

[banjo]

Didn’t Jesus write it off, at least partially? We don’t follow the Jewish eating rules, I don’t see people wearing sackcloths and ashes on their heads (well, except for Ash Wednesday), etc.

Ceaseless,

We are under no obligation to follow the ceremonial edicts of the Mosaic Law (things which St. Paul refers to as “works of the Law” or “works of Law” meaning “works of Torah”).
Christ said that he did not come to abolish the law and the prophets but to fulfill them (Mt 5:17). The Old Law enforced precepts of a moral, legal and liturgical kind. Its moral precepts still hold in the NT (cf. Mt 5:19 “Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments…etc”)
A previous poster made reference to mortal sin in 1 Jn. This is the entire quote…“If any one sees his brother committing what is not a** mortal sin**, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that.” (1 Jn 5:16).
In their Radio Replies series, Frs. Rumble and Carty said, “Now the Book of Eccleciasticus, in warning us against sin, says, ‘He that contemneth small things shall fall little by little.’ (19:1) That is, succeeding sins tend to become greater as the conscience is deadened. Proverbs 24:16, tells us that even the just man falls often. In other words, whilst remaining just or justified by grace, he still has his small sins. Christ said that it would be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of jedgment thatn for Bethsaida, clearly indicating degrees in guilt. (Mt 11:21) So, too, in Jn 19:11, Christ said to Pilate, ‘He that hath delivered me to you hath the greater sin.’ We cannot say the ‘sin is sin’ and there are no different kinds of gravity.” Vol. 2, No. 602
I read the link in you OP and the writer concedes Mt 11:22 and Lk 11:22 but goes on to say “one has to keep in mind …] that all sin will be punished by God.”…No one is saying lesser or ‘venial’ sins are not sins and do not displease God or will not be punished by Him. You will also find in the letters of St. Paul places where he catalogs the types of sin that will cause one to lose his inheritance in the kingdom (e.g., Eph 5:5; Rm 1:29…etc.). This things are not calling our attention to pilfering a nickle candybar. (If you could still find a nickle candybar).

 

[CeaselessMedik]

All right, I’ll give you that different sins have different gravity, but how does the Church declare which are mortal and which are not (I know its criteria, but how do they determine “grave nature?”)

Obviously stealing a nickel candy bar wouldn’t be as bad as stealing a car, but that doesn’t necessarily mean someone would go the Hell for committing the bigger sin, does it?

 

[davidv]

All right, I’ll give you that different sins have different gravity, but how does the Church declare which are mortal and which are not (I know its criteria, but how do they determine “grave nature?”)

She does this by engaging those with brilliant minds and loving hearts in the question: How seriously does a particular offense affect our relationship with god?
If the answer is: It completely cuts it off, then it is a mortal sin. Any other answer, its not.

 

[CeaselessMedik]

But who are they to decide?

 

[YADA]

Who are they to decide? The Church is the “Pillar and foundation of Truth” Jesus founded a church with presbyters to lead, preach and teach the Gospel, the Good News of Savation!

How could this Church, a people of God have salvation if they could not teach authoritatively about sin and how to *‘be’ *a follower of Christ [as in how to be Christian in belief and practice]?

Scripture does not claim that it is sufficient…the Church [as in the followers of Jesus - complete with apostles and apostolic succession - a community that had leaders and teachers] predates the New Testament writings [called the Canon of the Church - Canon being the writings that are foundational to the Church, its orgins and core beliefs].

It is the Church, whose role it is to ‘decide’ as in what you [Peter] bind on Earth is bound in Heaven and what you loose on Earth is loosed in Heaven…and Jesus preserves and guards the Church from the very “gates of hell” so that the Church never falls away.

 

[anthony022071]

Didn’t Jesus write it off, at least partially? We don’t follow the Jewish eating rules, I don’t see people wearing sackcloths and ashes on their heads (well, except for Ash Wednesday), etc.

See posts #6,#20,#23. The need to repent or to do penance didn’t end with Jesus. I think you’re confusing personal repentance with
the religious traditions associated with repentance. The former is needed for salvation,the latter is needed for religious observance and coherence. They don’t rule each other out. When people write off religious traditions they are just a step or two away from writing off the faith altogether. That is,in fact,what has been happening since the Protestant Reformation.

 

[banjo]

But who are they to decide?

Ceaseless,

This is a revealing question. It makes you sound like a Catholic having a problem with Church authority. You ask “Who are they?” They are the teaching Magisterium; the bishops along with the pope, the successors of the Apostles. We believe the Catholic Church was founded by Christ and is guided by the Holy Spirit against teaching error in matters of faith and morals. The authority of the Church comes from God. For example, we see the authority to forgive sins given in Jn 20:22-23. Rev. John A. Hardon, S.J. wrote,“It is not up to man to decide subjectively whether a deliberate serious sin, like direct abortion, is also a mortal sin which deprives him of God’s friendship.” (The Catholic Catechism, pp. 293-94).

Examples of grave sin are found in various places in the NT, some of which I alluded to in my previous post. From Gal 5:19-20 “19Now the works of the flesh are plain: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, 20idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, 21envy (Other ancient authorities add murder), drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God*.”*
The use of this quote is by no means intended by me to be a definitive list of mortal sins so that if and only if it is contained here it is a mortal sin and if it is not contained here it is not a mortal sin. **
From the Ignatius Catholic Study Bible commentary of Gal. 5:19-21 comes the following:“**The sins of the flesh include more than just sins of the body (5:19-21). **They consist of every act of immorality and injustice that stems from a disordered love of the world **(Jas 4:1-5; 1 Jn 2:15-17). These grave sins sever offenders from Christ (Gal 5:4) and will block their entrance into heaven if repentance is neglected.”

The Church reminds us that we must follow our conscience; however, she also reminds us that we have a duty to inform our conscience. Mortal sins are not confined only to sins that are carnal or sexual in nature. If you are concerned about what other sins are grave sins I suggest you have a talk with your parish priest.

 

[anthony022071]

But who are they to decide?

They are the people who’s concern it is to think intensively about these kinds of questions with faith and reason.