Refuting a Protestant History Teacher

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Ultramontain

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So here is the short of my set up, I am in a Renaissance and Reformation class, with a Protestant Teacher, who loves to take pot shots at the RCC, I can intellectually argue her into a corner with extreme easy, however she then say something about its not in the bible or get around it some other way.

What i am seeking to do is to biblical prove, or at least provide a understanding of Catholic though so that the Children she is corrupting will hear both sides of the story.

I will have her removed from her position at the end of the year, i have had to many problems with her over this, while shes a sweet lady and all, shes a moron who claims to know Catholic teaching when she has only what her pastor told her clearly.

In short what i would like is any and all biblical citations for any of the following and or anything i can use to quickly explain it to her, and the class (time is extremely limited in class)

===Bible needed===

-Veneration of Mary.

-Queen of Heaven.
I know somewhere there is shown the Jewish practice of the King’s mother is queen anyone know where?
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-Immaculate conception.

Claims the Sacraments are not in the New Testament.
While they are not listed, its clear they are present - Laying of hands, Bread and wine,
I really above all need Last rights.
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===Outside of the Bible===

Cathar and Waldensians - Her claim was that they live poor, so the church repressed them -_- Anyone a lot about know what made them Heretics?

Role of works in salvation (I need a quicker explanation then i can give)

Not by Faith alone proofs.
(When she posted the Quote from Martin Luther without Alone in it) I called her out on that, and she defended this in class…I don’t even have a idea how crazy you have to be to defend desecration of the bible…She claimed it was clear…I know there are at least a few passages to refute this, but i can’t remember all of them.
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Church banned reading of the bible
-Is there ANY of this in there?

Church banned English Translations
-According to St. Tomas More is was already in English Can anyone find a translated English bible with Church authorization that still survives before the Protestants did it?

-I am also hoping for, if anyone can provide anything related to the languages being read, i know most people who could read, would have read Latin, and all people who could not read…could not read English, or any other language. It maybe a dead end, but its a idea.

I would like to say, she did not say anything about bibles being chained down, shes talking about a cannon law document forbidding reading the bible (crazy right?)

:signofcross::signofcross::signofcross::signofcross::signofcross:
Excuse the text wall, and answer the things you know about and ignore the rest if you like.
 
Holy Cow! :eek: You must have loads of power to “remove” that teacher from her position. Don’t you think a far better way to deal with this situation would be to make an appointment with her and show her the facts that you have found from researching the different texts? Are you in high school or college?
 
Are you at a Catholic Institution?

And, even if you are, my advice is not to engage her. She knows exactly what she is doing. I have had professors like this. Their actions are not done out of ignorance but out of a prejudice against the Church and Christianity in general.

Professors will hold opinions against you (and your final grade).

How do I know this? It has happened to me. And there is nothing you can do about it.

Pick your battles. Is this battle worth it?
 
kozlosap said:
Holy Cow! :eek: You must have loads of power to “remove” that teacher from her position. Don’t you think a far better way to deal with this situation would be to make an appointment with her and show her the facts that you have found from researching the different texts? Are you in high school or college?
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College, i have a recording of this…There is no way the college (County college) Would allow this filth to be said in a class that not a history of theology class.

She does not have any appointment times, so instead i come up to her before class, and have talked to her, this will be the 4th time i will do a major thing, and every class i find something shes wrongfully adding in.

But yes, when she says “The Church was based on rituals, it was and is really a dead faith…They needed the Holy Spirit, which they lost, and the protestant brought back”

I’m sure i can have her removed EASY.
 
Ultramontain said:
I’m sure i can have her removed EASY.
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Again, pick your battles.
Removal is not as easy as your think. 😉

You cannot remove a professor (with tenure) because you disagree with her interpretation of history and theology.

It takes an act of God.

🙂
 
You might have an easier time if you reestablish the framework of the argument.

Consider the following:
  1. Jesus taught orally when He walked the earth. He never wrote a book or commanded anyone else to write a book. He taught the Apostles orally.
  2. SOME of what He taught orally was eventually written down, but not all. (See John 21:25)
  3. Yet, Jesus commanded the Apostles (and, by extension, their successors, the bishops) to teach “all” that He had taught them. (See Matt. 28:20) So, if he told them to teach “all” He taught them, but “all” is not in the Bible, where’s the rest?! In Sacred Tradition (oral teachings of Christ) referenced by 2 Thes 2:15.
So, anytime anyone insists that you “show them in the Bible” where something is, that’s a foolish and incorrect assumption.

Jesus did not write a book to spread His truths. He established a (one!) Church. Historically, this can ONLY be the Catholic Church since there were no other Christian churches till 1054 A.D., when the Orthodox split off. Protestantism didn’t begin till 1517 A.D., when an ex-Catholic priest (Augustinian monk), Martin Luther, broke off. Since that time, Protestantism has continually splintered into literally thousands of man-made, doctirnally contradicting denominations, all based on some individual’s personal interpretation of the Scriptures, which St. Peter warns against in 2 Peter 1:20. The Bible was not assembled till the 4th century, and the canon was decided by the Catholic Church (there were no other Christian churches then!). Add to that the fact that universal literacy was not a concern to humanity till the late 1800’s, and a “Bible only” Church makes absolutely no sense, because it would preclude the vast majority of people on earth for the first 18 centuries!

With regard to venerating (honoring) Mary, one could argue along these lines:
  1. Did Jesus every commit a sin while He was on earth? (No!)
  2. Are we supposed to be as much like Jesus as possible? (Yes!)
  3. The 4th Commandment (for Catholics) is to Honor thy Father and Mother.
Jesus, therefore, honored His mother. If we are to emulate Him, we honor her, too, since she is our mother whom He gave to us when He was on the cross.

The reason we call Mary “Queen of Heaven” is because we call Jesus Our King. The King’s mother was always called the Queen. The Book of Revelation refers to Mary in Rev. 12:1 “A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.”

The Immaculate Conception can be proven by going to the original Greek of Luke 1:28, where the angel appeared to Mary and addressed her as “full of grace.” The actual Greek term was “kecharitomene” and the English translation does not do it full justice. The real meaning of “kecharitomene” in the context in which it was used indicates that Mary was “full of grace” (without sin!) from the very first moment of her being (conception), in such a way as to be permanent forever. Someone “full of grace” cannot have sin, even Original Sin. Therefore, we say she was, by a singular grace of God, conceived without Original sin!

All the Sacraments are in the Bible. Sacrament of the Sick?

James 5:14-16: “Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint [him] with oil in the name of the Lord, and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins he will be forgiven.”

Faith vs. works? Here’s a good article: catholic.com/magazine/articles/we-can-work-it-out

I’m not sure about English translations of the Bible, but I do know several of the first tries at translating into English had errors in them. For example, one had forgotten the word “not” in the Commandments. It read, “Thou shalt take the name of the Lord in vain.” Typo, but a big one!

Hope this helps! 🙂
 
Seems like an interesting history class. If she is using class time to belittle religions in front of students, that’s a problem sure enough, but it may be better to ask a department head or someone to get her to stop before trying to get her removed. In any case, I hope things work out for the best, whatever that may be.

As for scriptural references for Catholic stuff, you may find scripturecatholic.com/ useful. However, since Scripture refutes Sola Scriptura (scripturecatholic.com/scripture_alone.html, among other places), do not expect to find everything spelled out. (And since it is the Catholic Church which compiled and protected scripture through the ages, it is unlikely that they would put so much effort into guarding something which proved them wrong so easily as some protestants like to think.)

As for reading the bible - the Church did ban some heretical translations which actively twisted the text (for example, inserting “only” to make things sound better). It may have banned the reading of all unapproved versions for the same reason, I am not sure. But it has never banned reading true scripture. The idea would be absurd anyway, given that reading Scripture has always been an important part of the Mass.

–

The Cathars were a gnostic sect that really just believed a lot of wrong stuff, some of it actively harmful to society.

They believed that the world was created by an evil God (the God of the Old Testament) that is distinct from the God of the New Testament. They thought that immaterial things (souls and the like) were created by Good God and some of it was trapped in matter by Bad God. They perverted Scripture to support this (changing nothing to nothingness and the like).

They considered all vows, including those of marriage to be evil. I think they believed in some weird sort of reincarnation.

The denied all the normal sacraments, but had what they considered to be a one time only forgiveness of everything sacrament (kind of a ramming together of most of the real ones). Since it could only be received once, many Cathar put it off until they thought they were near death, then starved themselves to death after receiving it.

In essence they were just wrong.
 
Ultramontain said:
College, i have a recording of this…There is no way the college (County college) Would allow this filth to be said in a class that not a history of theology class.
Click to expand...
As a former Protestant college prof who is now a Catholic college prof, and who teaches at a state school after having served at more and less ardently sectarian schools, I can tell you that approaching any faculty or any administration in the spirit and by the methods you are doing will definitely not accomplish anything good. Your messages are illiterate, defiant, and reflective of an unteachable spirit. Using recordings in this manner is unethical and borderline illegal. You will definitely hurt your relationships with the faculty, and while they may try to avoid retaliation (we usually do), they can’t help but think of you as a poor student who is unwilling to learn.

Now, if you want to help your classmates, what you need to do is ask questions which lead your professor to acknowledge the Protestant dependence on Catholic sources. There is no flowering of original-language study of Scripture without Erasmus, no return to first principles and original texts without what Protestants will call “proto-Reformers” like Nicholas of Lyra and a variety of Franciscan spiritual and intellectual seekers; there is no Luther without Augustine, and no Augustine without the primacy of the Roman See; etc. etc. And there is no reliable text of Scripture without the conciliar process of canonization and the monastic devotion to the text. When you have done your homework well enough to agree strategically with your prof, then you are in a position to do some good. In the meantime, you’d be wise to back WAAY off.

Learn to ask sincere questions, and to “agree with thine adversary quickly.” And remember that “even a fool, when he shuts his mouth, is considered wise.”
 
Steve Ray, a former Protestant, has a saying, “Where in the Bible does it say that everything has to be in the Bible?” Like the Holy Trinity, the word is not even used in the Bible and yet Catholics and Protestants alike believe it. Maybe listen to Steve’s talks. He’s excellent
 
pgepps said:
As a former Protestant college prof who is now a Catholic college prof, and who teaches at a state school after having served at more and less ardently sectarian schools, I can tell you that approaching any faculty or any administration in the spirit and by the methods you are doing will definitely not accomplish anything good. Your messages are illiterate, defiant, and reflective of an unteachable spirit. Using recordings in this manner is unethical and borderline illegal. You will definitely hurt your relationships with the faculty, and while they may try to avoid retaliation (we usually do), they can’t help but think of you as a poor student who is unwilling to learn.

Now, if you want to help your classmates, what you need to do is ask questions which lead your professor to acknowledge the Protestant dependence on Catholic sources. There is no flowering of original-language study of Scripture without Erasmus, no return to first principles and original texts without what Protestants will call “proto-Reformers” like Nicholas of Lyra and a variety of Franciscan spiritual and intellectual seekers; there is no Luther without Augustine, and no Augustine without the primacy of the Roman See; etc. etc. And there is no reliable text of Scripture without the conciliar process of canonization and the monastic devotion to the text. When you have done your homework well enough to agree strategically with your prof, then you are in a position to do some good. In the meantime, you’d be wise to back WAAY off.

Learn to ask sincere questions, and to “agree with thine adversary quickly.” And remember that “even a fool, when he shuts his mouth, is considered wise.”
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You said (typed) the truth in such a charitable way. 🙂

Maybe English is his or her second language (or Ultramontain is typing from a phone).
 
Seriously, how do you people even encounter people like this?!?!

No good history professor uses a classroom as a vehicle to make any kind of definitive statement. I don’t mean that history professors don’t hold tentative positions about a wide variety of things, but using a classroom as a soapbox to make such statements is bizarre. This is not the behavior of a good historian.

Note that this includes pro-Church views, as a good history professor should not be espousing those views in a classroom either. It is the role of every historian to remain an objective observer in relation to students.

I’m a history teacher on the secondary level, and I have very intricate political beliefs. I could, for example, pull out the bill of rights and explain my perspective on it in detail to my students. But that would not be proper. Teaching history is teaching methodology, not conclusions.
 
This might be hard to hear, but as somebody above said, pick your battles.

She has you at an extreme disadvantage.

If it is too late to transfer, then just be quiet and get through the class. Yes she is abusing her position, but frankly you are in no position to fight back. If there is a survey at the end of the class, you can blast her on that - maybe write up a separate sheet of paper ahead of time and staple it to the survey, too.

This is life - we are amongst the wheat and tares. Do not provoke her and just let it be - this too will pass. Offer your silence in this matter for unbelievers or those in purgatory - Jesus was silent in front of Herod - the harder it is for you to bear keeping silent, the more good you are doing for the Kingdom of God. This way her attack on you and Catholics actually has the effect of helping lost souls instead of harming yours.

Of course, don’t compromise the Truth, the Catholic position, should she ask your opinion (just say ‘I don’t agree but don’t have time to discuss it’ - or - ‘I don’t agree but I would rather not discuss it’), just don’t go out of your way to correct her ignorance.

Good luck and God bless you.
 
This “teacher” has been corrupted by being fed a long diet of hate for the catholic church. This is a case where you should follow the words of Jesus, “do not throw pearls before swine.”

If you try to confront her, even to offer the truth to protect other classmates, she will make you pay dearly for it. You are better served by collecting three of the most clear cases of bigotry and recording them. Find a classmate that will support your record. Then make a copy for yourself and send the record to the school administration. Send another copy to the school board. Send another copy by e-mail to the catholic groups in your church. This will put pressure on the teacher at the top level.

Like a lot of classes you have to take, get a good grade and get the hell out. Don’t forget, kick the dust from your feet after the last class, then move on.

Better yet, become a teacher as an adult and teach Truth!
 
Samuel63 said:
Better yet, become a teacher as an adult and teach Truth!
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Ok, well Sunday School is one thing but again, this behavior (whether pro-Catholic or anti-Catholic) is not typically in accord with the standards of this profession. It would be akin to a psychologist chalking up bipolar disorder to a demonic possession - it simply doesn’t fit.
 
Ultramontain said:
So here is the short of my set up, I am in a Renaissance and Reformation class, with a Protestant Teacher, who loves to take pot shots at the RCC, I can intellectually argue her into a corner with extreme easy, however she then say something about its not in the bible or get around it some other way.

What i am seeking to do is to biblical prove, or at least provide a understanding of Catholic though so that the Children she is corrupting will hear both sides of the story.

I will have her removed from her position at the end of the year, i have had to many problems with her over this, while shes a sweet lady and all, shes a moron who claims to know Catholic teaching when she has only what her pastor told her clearly.

In short what i would like is any and all biblical citations for any of the following and or anything i can use to quickly explain it to her, and the class (time is extremely limited in class)

===Bible needed===

-Veneration of Mary.

-Queen of Heaven.
I know somewhere there is shown the Jewish practice of the King’s mother is queen anyone know where?
Click to expand...
Hi,

As you are a student of history, I feel you will obviously know far more about the subject area than me. However, as far as I am aware, the protestant split-off from the Catholic faith came about when King Henry the VIII was refused yet another divorce by the Catholic Church. Enraged through arrogance and an inflated view of his own status and importance, he stated words to the effect of (not an actual quote, but in the correct ball-park) “who are you to deny me a divorce, I am the King of England, I PROTEST, I will start my own church”. The statement “I protest” is in fact, as I understand it, the origin of the term ‘protestant’. So the choice is clear; do we follow a church founded by an obese, narcissistic, gluttonous, psychotic multiple murderer, or the church founded by the ACTUAL SON OF GOD. Not rocket science me thinks!

God bless
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Please think about approaching this teacher in a charitable manner! If you are at a “county college” (Did you mean community college?), wait until you hit the university level, you will have professors that you disagree with all of the time, however, you cannot get all of them fired. The Paper Chase is real!😃
 
I would suggest that if you wish to continue to engage her in debate that you at least learn all the common logical fallacies that people fall into while arguing. Maintain a calm and thoughtful attitude when talking with the person, and if they get upset, just walk away and leave them in their ignorance.

If in arguing, the other person relies on an argument laced with logical fallacies you can point it out politely. If they are a reasonable person, they will agree and if they are not they will grow impatient and angry with you. In the later case, it is best to just walk away and not engage in such debate with those types of people.
 
Scoobyshme said:
You might have an easier time if you reestablish the framework of the argument.

Consider the following:
  1. Jesus taught orally when He walked the earth. He never wrote a book or commanded anyone else to write a book. He taught the Apostles orally.
  2. SOME of what He taught orally was eventually written down, but not all. (See John 21:25)
  3. Yet, Jesus commanded the Apostles (and, by extension, their successors, the bishops) to teach “all” that He had taught them. (See Matt. 28:20) So, if he told them to teach “all” He taught them, but “all” is not in the Bible, where’s the rest?! In Sacred Tradition (oral teachings of Christ) referenced by 2 Thes 2:15.
So, anytime anyone insists that you “show them in the Bible” where something is, that’s a foolish and incorrect assumption.

Jesus did not write a book to spread His truths. He established a (one!) Church. Historically, this can ONLY be the Catholic Church since there were no other Christian churches till 1054 A.D., when the Orthodox split off. Protestantism didn’t begin till 1517 A.D., when an ex-Catholic priest (Augustinian monk), Martin Luther, broke off. Since that time, Protestantism has continually splintered into literally thousands of man-made, doctirnally contradicting denominations, all based on some individual’s personal interpretation of the Scriptures, which St. Peter warns against in 2 Peter 1:20. The Bible was not assembled till the 4th century, and the canon was decided by the Catholic Church (there were no other Christian churches then!). Add to that the fact that universal literacy was not a concern to humanity till the late 1800’s, and a “Bible only” Church makes absolutely no sense, because it would preclude the vast majority of people on earth for the first 18 centuries!

With regard to venerating (honoring) Mary, one could argue along these lines:
  1. Did Jesus every commit a sin while He was on earth? (No!)
  2. Are we supposed to be as much like Jesus as possible? (Yes!)
  3. The 4th Commandment (for Catholics) is to Honor thy Father and Mother.
Jesus, therefore, honored His mother. If we are to emulate Him, we honor her, too, since she is our mother whom He gave to us when He was on the cross.

The reason we call Mary “Queen of Heaven” is because we call Jesus Our King. The King’s mother was always called the Queen. The Book of Revelation refers to Mary in Rev. 12:1 “A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.”

The Immaculate Conception can be proven by going to the original Greek of Luke 1:28, where the angel appeared to Mary and addressed her as “full of grace.” The actual Greek term was “kecharitomene” and the English translation does not do it full justice. The real meaning of “kecharitomene” in the context in which it was used indicates that Mary was “full of grace” (without sin!) from the very first moment of her being (conception), in such a way as to be permanent forever. Someone “full of grace” cannot have sin, even Original Sin. Therefore, we say she was, by a singular grace of God, conceived without Original sin!

All the Sacraments are in the Bible. Sacrament of the Sick?

James 5:14-16: “Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint [him] with oil in the name of the Lord, and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins he will be forgiven.”

Faith vs. works? Here’s a good article: catholic.com/magazine/articles/we-can-work-it-out

I’m not sure about English translations of the Bible, but I do know several of the first tries at translating into English had errors in them. For example, one had forgotten the word “not” in the Commandments. It read, “Thou shalt take the name of the Lord in vain.” Typo, but a big one!

Hope this helps! 🙂
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Awesome!
 
If it is a public school, I do not think you will have much trouble shutting her down. Good for you. Public education should not be this biased.
BH
Principal
 
Remember, our goal is to get people to follow Jesus.

1 Timothy 1:5
But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

6 For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion,

7 wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.

Remember, our goal is to follow Jesus.

John 13:35

“By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

We overcome the devil with love. Maybe you can be a friend to your teacher. Then she will be more open and less on the defensive around you. Then you can have a open, sincere discussion and she will see your point. If you alienate her you both lose.
 
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