Refuting Baptist Claims 2

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Shaolen

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So the walls are not well insulated for sound in my house and I overheard a conversation between my dad (southern Baptist) and my oldest brother (who wants to go in that direction). There was a few things my dad told my brother about what he thinks of the Catholic Church that I would like to know how to refute. I’ll make a separate thread for each one.

Another thing he said to my brother is that the Catholic Church is highly bureaucratic and political and filled with corruption. How do we defend the Catholic Churches Hierarchy and this idea that they’re all trying to gain power and move up the church ladder?
 
Lol…tell Him to look at the 12 winners Jesus Himself picked!

1…peter…the leader of the whole group denied he even knew Christ when Jesus needed him the most!!!
  1. There’s a story in the gospel where a few start fighting amongst them asking Jesus which one will have the place of honor at Jesus’s right hand in His kingdom.
  2. Judas was known to steal money the disciples collected for the poor! AND betrayed Jesus!
  3. All the disciples all deserted Jesus when they came to seize Him and were seen cowering and hiding when they killed Him!
What about the Jewish people … God the father put together the Jewish religion and appointed priests … were they spotless and perfectly holy, unburocratic? (there was a hierarchy and thousands of laws and precepts! to the jewish faith!..later Jesus called many of them “brood of vipers” and " hypocrites " …EVEN THEN !!! EVEN THEN… Jesus tells the people " these scribes and these pharasies … all the things they tell you to do …DO THEM! for they sit in the chair of Moses but do not take their works for your example for they do not practice what they preach!" …chair of moses = they had the authority by God over the people.)

Your fathers issues with the Catholic church are unfounded. Furthermore, does he not believe beurocrisy, politics and corruption can’t be found in the Baptist religion? I guarantee you it can.

He’s looking for a perfectly holy church to be the church of Christ…he’s not gonna find it …again… I refer you to the 12 winners Jesus chose.

The church is Holy because Jesus is with it “always, even until the end of time” , and because His very essence and life is poured out within it through the sacraments the church offers!..We humans however are a work in progress…including our pope, our priests, our bishops and the regular catholic…but Jesus is with us! so it’s allllll good! He promised us!

Beautiful quote I heard…something like this : “the church is not a museum of saints but a hospital for sinners” . Need to keep this in mind! When looking for Christ’s church …there are 3 things to look for : HOLY (because it’s Christs body and Jesus is the Head), Catholic (which means “universal”…open to all) , and it’s apostolic …(when Jesus was rising to heaven he gave authority to the apostles and their successors , not to a book!).

And when you’re looking for the fruits of the church… look at those who actually PRACTICE the catholic faith (cause many catholics don’t really practice). Look at the saints who used all the sacraments frequently and had strong prayer lives and you will meet persons that are unlike ANYONE on the face of the earth : John Paul II, Mother Theresa, st. francis etc etc etc.

God bless
 
Well, if he wants to cast stones he would do well to look at the Southern Baptists themselves first (the writings of Wade Burleson are a good start). They are also ull of politics, corruption, and jockeying for titles and positions, from the Convention all the way down to the seminaries.

The difference with the Catholics and the Baptists are that the Church hierarchy makes it possible to reign the worst of this in when it is being abused, has been done in the case of some priests and bishops who overstepped their authority or what is proper for their office and did not respond to correction.

In the Baptist world, on the other hand, there is no real authority so the power-hungry or dissenting types simply declare themselves and their church to be “independent Baptists” or affiliate with another Baptist convention or group and go on doing things their own way, answering to their own authority or to the authority of the leader of the college, group, or “camp” they are affiliated with.

I’m a former Baptist and I have known Baptists who placed the writings, teachings, and opinions of men like Al Mohler, Jack Hyles, Bob Jones, John R. Rice, David Cloud, Jerry Fallwell, John McArthur or Marc Driscoll just as highly or more highly than many Catholics place the words and writings of the Pope. Baptists have all sortf of little hierarchies and political divisions, they just don’t like to admit it because too many of their pastors also want the congregation to believe that they (pastors) are the final authority on scripture and tradition for those in their church.

(Yes, I know that the men listed above are not all connected to eachother and that a follower of one is not likely to have much respect for all of the others, but they are some of the people who many Baptists do try to emulate and many individual churches have strong cults of personality around one or more of those people).
 
The Church is made up of “earthen vessels”. We are limited, breakable, and imperfect. That does not mean that God cannot work through us.

The Bible is loaded with “failures”.

Moses failed and could not enter the Promised Land.
Saul attempted to murder David twice out of jealousy over his popularity.
David committed murder and adultery.
Peter denied Christ.
Paul persecuted the followers of Jesus.
Solomon was married to 700 women and had 300 concubines.
Elisha cursed 42 children and they were killed because they called him a bald head.
Jacob was a trickster until he discovered his uncle, Laban, was a greater trickster.

None of these leaders was a model of perfection! Neither is the papacy. It is run by men who are certainly flawed, even the holiest of them! But, their personal foibles are separate from the errors of the Church itself. (Simony, indulgences, sexual improprieties, and others.) There were plenty of these and they are acknowledged by the Church.

Despite these failures, however, God worked tremendous good. These flawed men still retain Apostolic Succession and the Pope his infallibility in issues of faith and morals for the Church. (Not in his own character and choices.) God still works through them for the Salvation of all.
 
Shaolen said:
So the walls are not well insulated for sound in my house and I overheard a conversation between my dad (southern Baptist) and my oldest brother (who wants to go in that direction). There was a few things my dad told my brother about what he thinks of the Catholic Church that I would like to know how to refute. I’ll make a separate thread for each one.

Another thing he said to my brother is that the Catholic Church is highly bureaucratic and political and filled with corruption. How do we defend the Catholic Churches Hierarchy and this idea that they’re all trying to gain power and move up the church ladder?
Click to expand...
Jimmy Swaggart
Jim & Tammy Bakker
pot, kettle, black
 
Shaolen said:
So the walls are not well insulated for sound in my house and I overheard a conversation between my dad (southern Baptist) and my oldest brother (who wants to go in that direction). There was a few things my dad told my brother about what he thinks of the Catholic Church that I would like to know how to refute. I’ll make a separate thread for each one.

Another thing he said to my brother is that the Catholic Church is highly bureaucratic and political and filled with corruption. How do we defend the Catholic Churches Hierarchy and this idea that they’re all trying to gain power and move up the church ladder?
Click to expand...
For real?!

The entanglement of the Baptist Church with the Republican party and the NRA to such an extent that you see Baptist Churches giving away GUNS to get people to come try their socio-chuchio-poilico-religio group?

foxnews.com/us/2014/03/16/baptist-churches-raffle-off-guns-to-attract-new-members/

Is he 1% serious?

Yes there is a hierarchy is the Catholic Church, does not the Baptist Church have a president of their convention? Is not a Baptist Confession of Faith? (There is it was written in 1689)

I mean come on!!!

The Baptist group is THE most politicized entangled religious group in America so much so that “evangelical” is now is now synonymous with Right-leaning politics.

This has to be a protest made in jest.
 
Shaolen said:
So the walls are not well insulated for sound in my house and I overheard a conversation between my dad (southern Baptist) and my oldest brother (who wants to go in that direction). There was a few things my dad told my brother about what he thinks of the Catholic Church that I would like to know how to refute. I’ll make a separate thread for each one.

Another thing he said to my brother is that the Catholic Church is highly bureaucratic and political and filled with corruption. How do we defend the Catholic Churches Hierarchy and this idea that they’re all trying to gain power and move up the church ladder?
Click to expand...
The is nothing magical about being Catholic. The Church is run by human beings and unfortunately Catholics, including the clergy, are human and commit sins. Ask your Dad to show you a perfect Church anywhere of any denomination. He won’t find one. But the Church, as a spiritual gift from Christ, is Holy in spite of the weakness of its members. It is through the Church that we receive the Truth about Divine Revelation and the Graces of Sacraments by which we may merit salvation. The Church, in spite of her warts, is the instrument of salvation for all, through Jesus Christ.

Linus2nd
 
A simple answer would be that we are all sinners in need of redemption. Jesus said scandal will come. Corruption is endemic, meaning its in our nature. Jesus came to give us New Life, the life of Grace So whats new? Surprise, surprise Who will cast the first stone? Jesus also stated He would sustain His Church in spite of corruption.
 
emphasize that true leadership is being the servant of all.
 
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