Refuting Baptist Claims

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Shaolen

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So the walls are not well insulated for sound in my house and I overheard a conversation between my dad (southern Baptist) and my oldest brother (who wants to go in that direction). There was a few things my dad told my brother about what he thinks of the Catholic Church that I would like to know how to refute. I’ll make a separate thread for each one. The first one is he claims that when Jesus died and the vale was torn that signified that they no longer a priest
 
I too would like to know the answer to this. I heard someone say this when I went on an Alpha course at the local non-denominational church before I returned to the Catholic Church. Thanks for putting this question out there. I had completely forgot about this.👍
 
These protestant claims are so irrational, that it is difficult to know where to begin. The Bible is a huge compilation of books over thousands of years, and only one sentence in the whole Bible contains the words “faith” and “alone”; in James 2:24 “You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and NOT BY FAITH ALONE”. Sola scriptura is nowhere to be found.

In a nutshell, if your religion has a human founder (Marshall Applewhite, John Calvin, L. Ron Hubbard, Jim Jones, David Koresh, Martin Luther, Bonnie Nettles, Charles Taze Russell, Joseph Smith, etc.) and a founded date less than 2,000 years ago, that should be a huge red flag. The Catholic Church was founded by Christ Himself, who said the gates of hell would never prevail against it. Now 1 out of every 7 humans on the planet earth are Catholic. Jesus kept His word. It is the only institution ever on the planet earth to have an unbroken lineage of successors spanning over 2,000 years. Every other Christian denomination was likely chipped off the True Church by the devil himself for the purpose separating God’s people from the Eucharist, period.
 
It’s because we now have our High priest who is eternally in the holy of holies (Heaven) and is constantly offering sacrifice …the one eternal sacrifice of His whole self! before our Father for us!

There is only one priest! It is Jesus the High priest…all of our priests are simply participating in the priesthood of Jesus with His authority to offer up on earth that one eternal sacrifice that is always before the fathers face in eternity…we here in time and space through the sacramental mystery are able to experience and participate in it!

To go one step further…we too …the people of God have some share in this priesthood as well! Although we do not go through the sacrament of ordination as our priests do and are called to participate in a special authority and share in Christs identity as they do…we are part of a as scripture says: “a royal priesthood” and are called to offer prayer, praise, good works , and sacrifice to God with our lives!

God bless
 
His claim is based on taking the passage in question out of context of the New Testament. If there were no more priests, then why does St. Paul write the following in Romans 15: 15] But on some points I have written to you very boldly by way of reminder, because of the grace given me by God 16] to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit. (Emphasis mine)**

**Even the n-C NASB reads 15 But I have written very boldly to you on some points so as to remind you again, because of the grace that was given me from God, 16 to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles, ministering as a priest the gospel of God, so that my offering of the Gentiles may become acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

And Young’s Literal Translation (YLT) 15 and the more boldly I did write to you, brethren, in part, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me by God, 16 for my being a servant of Jesus Christ to the nations, acting as priest in the good news of God, that the offering up of the nations may become acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.
 
Shaolen said:
So the walls are not well insulated for sound in my house and I overheard a conversation between my dad (southern Baptist) and my oldest brother (who wants to go in that direction). There was a few things my dad told my brother about what he thinks of the Catholic Church that I would like to know how to refute. I’ll make a separate thread for each one. The first one is he claims that when Jesus died and the vale was torn that signified that they no longer a priest
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Most theologians say that it signified the end of the Old Covenant, as did Christ’s own death and all the other happenings, three hours darkness, the earth quake, the dead rising and going into the city, the moon reversing course to cause an eclipse of the sun.

Linus2nd
 
Shaolen said:
So the walls are not well insulated for sound in my house and I overheard a conversation between my dad (southern Baptist) and my oldest brother (who wants to go in that direction). There was a few things my dad told my brother about what he thinks of the Catholic Church that I would like to know how to refute. I’ll make a separate thread for each one. The first one is he claims that when Jesus died and the vale was torn that signified that they no longer a priest
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1 Peter 2:5 ESV
you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 2:9 ESV
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

I am assuming he is a Sola Scriptura Bible inerrantist. If he can explain how Peter writing to Church leaders could call them the Priesthood, ἱεράτευμα hierateyama by the way it means “the office of a priest” it has no other meaning, without meaning ‘priesthood’ then he’s obviously a smarter man than Peter or the Holy Spirit that inspired him to write it.
 
This also makes a mess of the writer of Hebrews saying Christ is our One true High Priest in the Heavenlies called to be a priest in the Order of Melchizedek and a Priest forever before God.

If there is no priesthood then God must be a liar and Christ must be a liar and we must therefore have also no advocate before the Father.

Umm???
 
Church_Militant said:
His claim is based on taking the passage in question out of context of the New Testament. If there were no more priests, then why does St. Paul write the following in Romans 15: 15] But on some points I have written to you very boldly by way of reminder, because of the grace given me by God 16] to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit. (Emphasis mine)**

**Even the n-C NASB reads 15 But I have written very boldly to you on some points so as to remind you again, because of the grace that was given me from God, 16 to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles, ministering as a priest the gospel of God, so that my offering of the Gentiles may become acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

And Young’s Literal Translation (YLT) 15 and the more boldly I did write to you, brethren, in part, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me by God, 16 for my being a servant of Jesus Christ to the nations, acting as priest in the good news of God, that the offering up of the nations may become acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.
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Sometimes you have to just roll your eyes when a protestant asks where does it mention Priests in the Bible. The word “Priest” can be found 795 times in the Old Testament and 168 times in the New Testament. For people espousing sola scriptura, they should open the Bible once in a while and read it.
 
Linusthe2nd said:
Most theologians say that it signified the end of the Old Covenant, as did Christ’s own death and all the other happenings, three hours darkness, the earth quake, the dead rising and going into the city, the moon reversing course to cause an eclipse of the sun.

Linus2nd
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This is what I learned also, it also was the beginning of the new covenant, a spiritual kingdom of grace open to all who accepted Jesus Christ as the Son of God, God-man. His kingdom was the New Israel. It did away with the old covenant of law, and introduced the law of love, God and neighbor. His chosen people where not only Jews but all who accepted Him.
 
I also want to add that in the last post, Jesus did come to make a new covenant but he did not abolish the Old Law. Matthew 5:17 New American Standard Bible
"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. Jesus gave the keys of the kingdom to Peter alone and the powers to bind and loose in heaven and on earth.

I recently got into a FB post discussion with my very evangelical relatives and was able to shut them down completely. Our disagreement occured over ‘Papal Infalliblity’ and ‘Intercessory Prayer from Saints’ which I am sure your dad has a problem with as well. Here is what I wrote. I used some apologetic sources. I think if you made these with your brother he would benefit. catholicbible101.com/apologetics.htm and the the wonderful booklets sold right here at catholic answers! shop.catholic.com/books-1/apologetics/beginning-apologetics-vol-1-how-to-explain-and-defend-the-catholic-faith.html

Papal Infallibility was officially defined at the Vatican Council of 1870, which said when a pope is officially defining dogma, the Holy Spirit is there too. There must be 3 requirements. Not everything a pope says is infallible. Did the Bishop of Rome Peter have any special authority? Yes, Matt 16:13-19 Jesus gives the keys of the kingdom to Peter and the powers to bind and loose on Earth and Heaven. He is instituting the Prime Ministership of the New Kingdom, quoting Isaiah 22:22 and the powers of the Prime Minister. Just as the Old Kingdom had a king, queen (mother), prime misister and valid priesthood, so does the New Kingdom. Although the Apostles were given authority to bind and loose as a group, only Peter was given the keys to the kingdom Matt 18:18. We also have John 16:14 Jesus promising the Paraclete to be with you always, and He will guide you. Matt 23:1-3 tells the crowds to practice what the scribes and Pharisees who ‘sit on the set of Moses’ tell you but not what they do. The pope sits on the chair of Peter. The pope is a sinner of course but he authority by his position. The council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 was held to determine if the gentiles should be circumcised and Peter determines the outcome Acts 15:28. The Holy Spirit was invoked (one of the three requirements), therefore it is an infallible decision. Also, the word Trinity is not in Sacred Scripture but do you think it began when it was officially defined? Which came first the Bible or The Church? The Catholic Church gave us the Bible. How did they know which books were inspired by the Holy Spirit? Took a few hundred years and two councils to officially close the cannon. How did they know? The Church had the Early Church Fathers who had been taught by the Apostles and Christ. They had the Deposit of Faith which was closed with the death of the last Apostle, nothing could be added or changed to the teaching. Almost all the Early Fathers were martyred. They were the ones empowered by the Holy Spirit. John 16:13 and 1 John 4:6. Who made them? The Apostles laid hands on them Acts 6:6. This Apostolic Tradition has been followed for 2000 years. A lot of Protestants think Christianity began with Jesus and the Apostles then skipped 1500 years to Luther. Catholic clergy is not repressing questions, after all, “Seek and you shall find”,but if a belief contradicts Sacred Tradition (history) and Sacred Scripture then it likely is an error. You believe what your pastor tells you obviously, how do you know he isn’t teaching error? His masters degree? One person can easily be confused. Example, your confusing 1 Timothy 2:5 and intercessary prayer to the saints. The saints in heaven are alive in Heaven with Christ, free from all sin and care more about us than they did on Earth. We are a communion of saints, John 15:4-5 we are connected in a supernatural union as members of Christ’s own body. Just as Paul asked fellow believers (saints)to pray for him Rom 15:30, Col 4:3, 1Thes 5:25, etc. We can ask Paul and the others to pray for us. Rev. 5:8 and Rev 8:3-4 say that the angels and saints place prayers of the holy ones at God’s feet. If the prayers of a righteous man availeth much, how much more can a saint in Heaven who is with God help through prayer? Catholics do not worship saints that is another misconception. When we say “pray” we mean to “ask”. Back to wondering if your pastor is possibly giving out error, obviously he can because he is just a man with his own interpretation. What happens when members don’t agree with him? They go start another church. Here is why you have approximately 40,000 different protestant churches saying different things. Truth cannot contradict Truth or it never was. Sometimes truth is difficult. At what point do you submit to authority? How do you know it is legitimate? Obedience brings humilty. Maybe just maybe the Catholic Church teaches out of wisdom and legitimate authority. She is the Bride of Christ. Satan loves to tell lies about her. Good Luck, Johanna
 
The temple veil being torn in two when Jesus died is reported in Matthew 27:51, Mark 15:37, and Luke 23:45. It is pretty much anyone’s guess as to its significance because its significance is not discussed there nor anywhere else in the Bible.

For instance, I think the tearing of the temple veil at the death of Jesus (the Messiah) is related to the high priest tearing his robes in the previous chapter when he thought Jesus blasphemed when he proclaim himself to be the Messiah. (Matthew 26:35 and Mark 14:63) It was as if by His action God was saying, You tore your robes when you wrongly thought Jesus blasphemed when he proclaimed himself to be the Messiah but I tear my veil because Jesus was the Messiah and his killing is the true blasphemy.
 
emphasize the spiritual gifts that a priest would have, need to do his duties.

start with pastor and teacher. descriptions of elders, etc.,
 
Just as the Old Covenant had a high priest, the ministerial priesthood, and the priesthood of each household, this is a foreshadowing of the New Covenant, where Jesus is the High Priest, and there is still a ministerial priesthood, and all Christians participate in the general royal priesthood.

There are three levels to each, and this wasn’t done away with. If so, I’d like to see the chapter and verse. The tearing of the veil was a multi-faceted event, but it didn’t do away with priesthood in the New Covenant.
 
The veil has been torn and we now have direct access to God in the Eucharist.

-Tim-
 
Shaolen said:
So the walls are not well insulated for sound in my house and I overheard a conversation between my dad (southern Baptist) and my oldest brother (who wants to go in that direction). There was a few things my dad told my brother about what he thinks of the Catholic Church that I would like to know how to refute. I’ll make a separate thread for each one. The first one is he claims that when Jesus died and the vale was torn that signified that they no longer a priest
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That is a false interpretation of that. The proof is the example in Act and the authority that Jesus gave the apostles and their subsequent actions in Acts. Jesus did breathe on them the Holy Spirit which at the same time gave them authority to forgive sins. New converts were subject to the apostles. Jesus likewise gave the keys of the kingdom to Peters. Keys of the kingdom is authority. Another example is that the apostles replaced Judas with St. Matthias which signifies that Judas authority and position transferred to another. St. Paul’s letter talked about appointing bishops and overseers to St. Timothy and St. Titus. The idea that Jesus ended the Leviticus priesthood by the ripping of the curtain after His resurrection is total bogus. I would search Catholic Answers on how to refute the false Protestant idea of the priesthood of believers.
 
When I posted I made a mistake when I said the Law of Old Covenant was done away with. One poster corrected me stating that Jesus fulfilled the the Law of the Old Covenant. What Jesus did away with was ritualistic practices governed by the leaders in the fulfillment of the Law, eg. the washing of hands, not eating certain foods considered unclean, etc, and introducing the Law of Love, and Grace. The Ten Commandments still stand, but now the Two Greatest Commandments, Love of God, and love of neighbor cover the entire Ten Commandments. If we practice them, we practice the Ten. The Old Covenant had the Jews as the chosen people. Jesus extended this to include all of His followers The Romans destroyed the Temple Perhaps too by the tear of the curtain symbolizing the revelation of the New Israel, the Kingdom of God, and through Jesus free access to God
 
ynotzap said:
When I posted I made a mistake when I said the Law of Old Covenant was done away with. One poster corrected me stating that Jesus fulfilled the the Law of the Old Covenant. What Jesus did away with was ritualistic practices governed by the leaders in the fulfillment of the Law, eg. the washing of hands, not eating certain foods considered unclean, etc, and introducing the Law of Love, and Grace. The Ten Commandments still stand, but now the Two Greatest Commandments, Love of God, and love of neighbor cover the entire Ten Commandments. If we practice them, we practice the Ten. The Old Covenant had the Jews as the chosen people. Jesus extended this to include all of His followers The Romans destroyed the Temple Perhaps too by the tear of the curtain symbolizing the revelation of the New Israel, the Kingdom of God, and through Jesus free access to God
Click to expand...
There were three types of law in the Old Covenant, the moral, liturgical/ritual, and civil. The moral law (like the 10 Commandments) are unchanging and never go away. The liturgical/ritual laws can and did change with the enactment of the New Covenant. We no longer celebrate the Passover, but the new Passover of the Mass, which is why Jesus is referred to as our “Pascal lamb” in the Bible. The civil law was ended as well, and this dealt with things like punishments for violations of the moral and ritual laws. Violations of the moral law are still sinful, but the punishments for those violations have been changed.

If Jesus completely got rid of ritual in the New Covenant, then why is His command at the Last Supper to follow His ritual?
 
Perhaps to filter out man made rituals from God made rituals. The Pharasees were known to bind the people with many rituals. Jesus did reprimand them for binding people and not doing anything to lift their burdens. He did say they swallow camels, and bleed gnats meaning they gave more importance to little things, and letting the more serious things unattended. He reprimanded them for their hypocrisy All of this is covered in Mat:23;27
 
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