Refuting Jehovah's Witness belief in Jesus as Michael the arch angel

[PJM]

=Mgray82;9921672]While debating with a Jehovah’s Witness that Jesus is God and not Michael the arch angel, I used Hebrews 1:4-5 to refute his claim.

However he came back with Genisis 6:1-4 and Job 1:6 and 38:7

How do I combat this? And anyway what are the “sons of God”?

is NEARLY impossible

They ALSO do not accept the Bible.

Yet Jesus and his miracles are historically provable. That too is denied.

Tell the TRUTH
**LUKE 1 ;26-35 **as evidence

and John 10:36 " I am the Son of God?" MEANS: **John 10:30 ** " I and the Father are one".

Then PRAY that God offers and that they can accept God grace to accept it.

 

[Kc906]

God bless these people. He’s trying…I’ll give him that. But he’s not consistent at all. He’s going all over the place with it. The latest is Daniel chapter 2. And even worse, after I asked him if the apostles taught Jesus as Michael the archangel he gave me Paul saying yes in 1 Cor. 10:1-4. He is making a good case for it, but he’s ducking the question I proposed about Hebrews. More help would be appreciated, thank you all and pray for this person.

In 1 Corinthians 10:1-4 Paul reveals that it was actually the pre-incarnate Jesus was the Cloud and Pillar of Fire that lead and followed the Israelites through the Exodus. Interesting how God the Father describes this “Angel of the Lord” in Exodus 23:20-21:

20 “Behold, I send an Angel before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared. 21 Beware of Him and obey His voice; do not provoke Him, for He will not pardon your transgressions; for My name is in Him.

So this “Angel,” which means messenger, has God’s name (Yahweh) in him. We also see in Exodus more about this Cloud and Pillar which we now know is Jesus, which is exactly what the JW was trying to prove.

Exodus 14:19-24: 19 And the Angel of God, who went before the camp of Israel, moved and went behind them; and the pillar of cloud went from before them and stood behind them. 20 So it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel. Thus it was a cloud and darkness to the one, and it gave light by night to the other, so that the one did not come near the other all that night. 21 Then Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea into dry land, and the waters were divided. 22 So the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea on the dry ground, and the waters were a wall to them on their right hand and on their left. 23 And the Egyptians pursued and went after them into the midst of the sea, all Pharaoh’s horses, his chariots, and his horsemen. 24 Now it came to pass, in the morning watch, that the LORD looked down upon the army of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and cloud, and He troubled the army of the Egyptians.

So the LORD looked down upon the army from the pillar of fire and the cloud, yet we know that Jesus was the being appearing as the pillar of fire and the cloud. Obviously Jesus is the LORD, he is Yahweh. We see how this same Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses in the burning bush, but it was God Almighty/Yahweh who was speaking to Moses from the fire (Exodus 3:2-7.) The JW can’t explain why the bible writers would call the being Angel of the Lord, and then suddenly start writing as if it were Yahweh who were speaking, or who was seen. They interchanged these names for the pre-incarnate Word not to confuse us, but to show us who he really is, and that is God.

 

[johnnyjones]

An arch angel isn’t God. “God bought the church with His own blood” . Romans 9:5

 

[R_C]

Satan runs the world, and Christians have dominion over him and the legion. That does not mean Christians run the world. You said it perfect “Christians are not of this world”.

Interesting point. But I still do not think that Satan “runs” the world. I think that even if he had any sort of authority before the coming of Christ, He lost it: right before His Passion, the Lord said: “Now is the judgment of this world. Now the prince of this world will be cast out.”. After His death and glorious resurrection: “I have been given all authority in heaven and on earth”.

So I’d argue the fallen angels rule over their own little world of darkness, but that heaven and earth belong to Christ, and even the rebellious angels can do nothing but bend their knee and tremble at the name of Christ, subject still to His authority.

I think that there is a significant difference in theological terms between “earth” and “world”…

In short: I do not know if Christians run the world, I honestly don’t think so, but I know that “he” is not in charge: Christ is.

 

[R_C]

An arch angel isn’t God. “God bought the church with His own blood” . Romans 9:5

I think that’s Acts 20:28:

Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Now brace yourself for the twisted translation :sad_yes:

Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed you overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own [Son].

Now “episcopos” becomes “overseers” and “ecclesiam” becomes “congregation” (which is not contrary to the etymology of these words, but clearly meant to replace the English words “bishop” and “church”), and suddenly “sanguine suo” refers to the Son (but since no manuscript has the word “son”, they just kind of add it in square brackets… ).

 

[johnnyjones]

I think that’s Acts 20:28:

Now brace yourself for the twisted translation :sad_yes:

Now “episcopos” becomes “overseers” and “ecclesiam” becomes “congregation” (which is not contrary to the etymology of these words, but clearly meant to replace the English words “bishop” and “church”), and suddenly “sanguine suo” refers to the Son (but since no manuscript has the word “son”, they just kind of add it in square brackets… ).

Yes you are correct, my error. Another corruption is:

“In Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily” -Col 2:9

The JWs twisted that into -“In him dwells all the fullness of the divine quality”. Wrong.

There are many others because the bible is a Jesus book and they have to keep Jesus less than God with coverup after coverup.

 

[R_C]

“our wrestling is not against flesh and blood”

A good friend of mine once told me: “remember that Christ already won.” So while we work hard for God’s greater glory and the good of souls, we should always remember to “not run as if we did not know where we were going”, instead, we ought to “run to win”, because the “one man” of 1 Cor 9:24 already crossed the finish line, received the crown, and now holds in His hands the medals for all of his team who are still running. Our medals are there already, with our name on them. No matter how much others on the road try to make us fall or to stop us from reaching the finish line, nobody will ever be able to take away from us this one certainty: our medal is already there. We don’t need to win it, only to persevere till the end, following the rules, or rather, the one rule dictated by grace. They may change the book that has the rules, but we don’t need the book: grace suffices, for the book is but one Word, and that Word, in grace, is in our heart.

 

[Mgray82]

One of the biggest things I’ve learned from debating with the JWs is that IT’S HARD TO CONVINCE OR TELL THEM THEY’RE WRONG. Especially when they are bending scripture to fit their belief. How can I convince them their bible (New World Translation) is wrong?

 

[Matthew_Holford]

How can I convince them their bible (New World Translation) is wrong?

You can’t. They believe it is the only true version of the Bible. It was translated by a group of men who had no training in the languages of the original scriptural texts. They have altered the scriptures to fit with their doctrines. They also have contradictions in their version of the Bible.

 

[kbwall]

It’s much the same as any other Protestant. They’re not going to be convinced by you. You can talk about fact, history, and what the Bible says until you’re blue in the face, and it won’t do any good. If one comes to Catholicism, they have to have their heart open to it and have to want to be in it.

 

[R_C]

It’s much the same as any other Protestant.

No, there are significant differences. There are excellent reasons for which the more one studies this community, the more one calls it a cult.

I think that unless the Holy Spirit gives us some help, we can hardly hope to convert a JW or even show him that the teachings he received are mistaken.

Therefore I think that one important thing for us Catholics is our reaction. The teachers of the law were shocked when they saw Peter, the fisherman, defending what he and the apostles had been doing, and refusing to stop preaching the Gospel. Often, JWs come wearing a cloak of superiority which comes from the false idea that they actually hold the truth. We know that it is not so. We should not, therefore, play their game of roles and step into the student’s shoes. We should, with love, charity, and in all humbleness, receive them like a college professor would receive a brilliant undergraduate student, full of pride for his “discovery”…to pride, we should oppose a simplicity like that of St. Francis, and yet they must immediately feel that they are the learners and us the teachers…the Magisterium is of the Church!

 

[candybear]

There are other verses in the Bible where they believe that Jesus is Michael the Archangel. The word archangel is always singular, never plural, which to them means that there is only ONE archangel and Michael is the only one mentioned as the Archangel (see Jude 9). Michael is also mentioned in the book of Daniel as one of the chief princes (10:13) and as a great prince who will come and be a guardian for the Israelites (12:1). To their way of thinking that would have to be Jesus Christ.

As to “worship” in the book of Hebrews, the Greek word (proskuneo - sp?) means worship and obesience. They ascribe the word worship to Jehovah God and obesience to Jesus Christ. I never could figure out their logic on this one.

It’s not worth the effort to argue on the passage in Hebrews 1, because they see him as a special angel, a created being. He is nothing more than a creature. Believe me, I tried.

 

[FaithInTheSon]

Interesting point. But I still do not think that Satan “runs” the world. I think that even if he had any sort of authority before the coming of Christ, He lost it: right before His Passion, the Lord said: “Now is the judgment of this world. Now the prince of this world will be cast out.”. After His death and glorious resurrection: “I have been given all authority in heaven and on earth”.

So I’d argue the fallen angels rule over their own little world of darkness, but that heaven and earth belong to Christ, and even the rebellious angels can do nothing but bend their knee and tremble at the name of Christ, subject still to His authority.

I think that there is a significant difference in theological terms between “earth” and “world”…

In short: I do not know if Christians run the world, I honestly don’t think so, but I know that “he” is not in charge: Christ is.

From what I have seen, Satan is still being allowed to “roam and patrol” the earth, and influences all of society in the worst ways. Our Lord is allowing this. btw I know they don’t have sexes it is just a habit.

Of course Satan is not even considered “competition” for our Lord or even the least of His angels. I trust in our Lord and His judgment. If He allows Satan to roam, it is for the best. I was not trying to imply that Christ is not in charge. I am saying that our Lord has allowed Satan to continue to roam. It is the nature of the game from what I have seen.
It is, like everything else our Lord does, a perfect act of mercy. I would prefer not to speculate on why because I have seen throughout my life that we can never understand why; it just works out the way it should. Only after we have seen the final outcome do we realize why and we probably won’t be seeing that soon.

I did not mean to imply that Satan has any real power. He is a tool.

True, our Lord came to destroy Satan’s works. It is up to the individual to accept this help. Many people feel that they are good, and do not need salvation. Many just don’t want to serve.

If you accept the Lord’s help and serve Him, the whole situation changes.

If you believe Satan has already been defeated in the sense of not roaming the earth anymore, I would have to disagree. Do you believe the Archangel Michael already chained satan up (revelations)?

 

[R_C]

The word archangel is always singular, never plural, which to them means that there is only ONE archangel and Michael is the only one mentioned as the Archangel (see Jude 9). Michael is also mentioned in the book of Daniel as one of the chief princes (10:13) and as a great prince who will come and be a guardian for the Israelites (12:1).

Tthe idea of many archangels is something that is rooted in Jewish tradition. The teaching of seven archangels, however, seems to be rooted on Tobit 12 and Revelation 8:

Ego enim sum Raphaël angelus, unus ex septem qui adstamus ante Dominum.

For I am Raphael angel, one of seven who stand before the Lord.

Et vidi septem angelos stantes in conspectu Dei

And I saw seven angels standing in the presence of God

Of course, later we have some very significant works on the heavenly hierarchy (especially the writings of St. Denis the Areopagite and St. Thomas Aquinas on this topic).

Now:

St. Augustine says: "‘Angel’ is the name of their office, not of their nature. If you seek the name of their nature, it is ‘spirit’;

Thus in the Litany of the Most Holy Name of Jesus (according to tradition, written in the XV Century by S. Bernardine of Siena and S. John Capistrano, whom today we bring to memory) does call the Lord: “angel of great counsel” without this being a contradiction with “the mighty God” and “our God”.

But Christ is by nature no spirit: by nature He is God.

The basic beliefs of Christianity were brought together in the Symbolum Nicaenum, though this is preceded by the Old Roman Creed and the Symbolum Apostolicum, which do not directly mention the nature of Christ but exclude his being a creature, for they speak of the Father’s only son, and no matter how you twist it, “unicum” is “unicum”. Regardless of whatever Scriptural interpretation one may draw, the true issue is the refusal and rejection of the basic and most ancient professions of the Christian faith

 

[R_C]

@FaithInTheson: wonderful post! You expressed perfectly what I had in mind.

And indeed I do not consider that the defeat of the adversary is yet complete, as mentioned in the Revelation: the adversary and the fallen angels are rather clearly still around However it is only a matter of time, and nothing can change what is already written about Christ:

God left nothing that is not subject to him. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to him.

And you know what this reminds me of? Advent! :christmastree1:

 

[candybear]

Tthe idea of many archangels is something that is rooted in Jewish tradition. The teaching of seven archangels, however, seems to be rooted on Tobit 12 and Revelation 8:

I realize that; I have studied the Jewish tradition of angels and know about their hierarchy of angels. Very interesting study. The JW’s don’t believe in the Jewish tradition of angels. To them the Bible says one archangel and one archangel it is. Besides, they don’t recognize the book of Tobit.:angel1:

Of course, later we have some very significant works on the heavenly hierarchy (especially the writings of St. Denis the Areopagite and St. Thomas Aquinas on this topic).

Now:

Thus in the Litany of the Most Holy Name of Jesus (according to tradition, written in the XV Century by S. Bernardine of Siena and S. John Capistrano, whom today we bring to memory) does call the Lord: “angel of great counsel” without this being a contradiction with “the mighty God” and “our God”.

But Christ is by nature no spirit: by nature He is God.

The basic beliefs of Christianity were brought together in the Symbolum Nicaenum, though this is preceded by the Old Roman Creed and the Symbolum Apostolicum, which do not directly mention the nature of Christ but exclude his being a creature, for they speak of the Father’s only son, and no matter how you twist it, “unicum” is “unicum”. Regardless of whatever Scriptural interpretation one may draw, the true issue is the refusal and rejection of the basic and most ancient professions of the Christian faith

 

[candybear]

I am very familiar with the Jewish tradition of angels, having studied it in different Bible study classes. The JW’s don’t recognize the book of Tobit; they see it as demonic. They don’t recognize the Jewish belief in the seven archangels mentioned in Jewish tradition. To them, archangel is singular and that means there is only one.:angel1:

 

[R_C]

The JW’s don’t recognize the book of Tobit; they see it as demonic.

:banghead:

 

[Mystophilus]

Then PRAY that God offers and that they can accept God grace to accept it.

Agreed.

 

[PJM]

=SteveVH;9923150]Well Jesus addressed it quite specifically. I gave you the scriptural references. What would make this more clear to you? Take a look at Exodus 7:1: "And the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet." This use of the word “god” was used in reference to prophets. It was a term of authority implying a divine administration; i.e. judges, prophets, kings, etc. This might offend our sensibilities today, but they understood the difference between a “god” and “God”. It is simply a matter of word usage, not a matter of theology.

THIS MEANS A MESSANGER ON BEHALF OF YAHWEH; SPEAKING FOR GOD; NOT THAT MOSES IS “A god.”