P
PJM
Guest
Call the Bishops office and share this information A/O
Brief
Factual
w/ charity
Refuting Jehovah's Witness belief in Jesus as Michael the arch angel
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Brief
Factual
w/ charity
P
Pythons
Guest
I agree with PJM, waste zero time in calling the Bishops office.
If anything the Book of Daniel totally destroys even the remote option of Michael being God…
…Considering the events detailed in Daniel 10.
Daniel 10,11
And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak unto thee, and stand upright: for unto thee am I now sent. And when he had spoken this word unto me, I stood trembling. Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words. But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
It was the 24th day that Daniels angel was able to reach him to deliver the message…
…This angel left to deliver the message immediately after Daniel started his religious fast.
…And was stopped by the demon protecting Perisa for 21 days.
Michael the archangel comes to the aid of Daniels angel and these two ANGELS soften up the demon causing the problems…
…For a minimun of 48 hours THEN Michael stays behind so that Daniels angel can get to him with the message.
…Then THAT angel goes back to help Michael!
So much for the JW rubbish that Michael the archangel is “God”.
R
redle
Guest
Hi Pythons,
I’m not going to debate this thread, or even defend the JW view, but I’m feeling a bit thick today and can’t follow your reasoning, and it seems you have a great point to make.
If it’s not too much to ask, would you mind putting it into simple terms for simple folk please?
BTW, JW’s don’t think Michael is God, JW’s think Michael is Jesus. Don’t forget that JW’s didn’t accept the trinity.
Thanks,
Redle.
I’m not going to debate this thread, or even defend the JW view, but I’m feeling a bit thick today and can’t follow your reasoning, and it seems you have a great point to make.
If it’s not too much to ask, would you mind putting it into simple terms for simple folk please?
BTW, JW’s don’t think Michael is God, JW’s think Michael is Jesus. Don’t forget that JW’s didn’t accept the trinity.
Thanks,
Redle.
P
Pythons
Guest
The theological mechanism for both Jehovah’s Witnesses and Seventh-day Adventists is to deny Christ the Deity of God…
…By both groups affirmation that Christ “could have sinned” & subsequently “lost His Salvation”.
…The reasoning goes something like this: Lucifer was an archangel and sinned therefore Christ ( also an archangel ) could have.
In the Jehovah’s Witness & Seventh-day Adventist rubric it would be considered blaspemy to suggest that “God” could fail…
…In other words a hypothetical situation that involved God’s death due to God getting to close to a star that went super nova.
…Would be considered foolish or “impossible” simply because that could never happen to “God”.
Sacred Scripture over and over again states the impossibility of Christ failing to fully exercise the Will of the Father…
…And according to the Scriptures ONLY God is eternally without failure or change.
…I mean by change a mutation ( evolution ) of perfectly Holy to sinner then to a state of nothing.
…As in to become as if He never was.
Jehovah’s Witnesses ignore the mass of Scriptures that exist that state the Christ was eternally impeccable…
…And then suggest Christ ( more correctly said 'creature christ ) WAS peccable.
…This is what I mean by this.
R
redle
Guest
Thank you, but I meant the bit about Daniel 
P
Pythons
Guest
The Book of Daniel has many other proofs - the one I listed is simply one of many…Thank you, but I meant the bit about Daniel
…Consider the following one in the context of the belief that Jesus was ( and would be ) peccable.
Didn’t I respond to the Catholic who said he heard his Priest, at the Scripture reading, say Michael was ‘God’?
…Not that it matters - the same logic applies with the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Daniel 2,44
And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: AND the kingdom shall not be left to other people, BUT it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, AND it shall stand for ever. Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: AND the dream is certain, AND the interpretation thereof sure.
Being God, Jesus KNEW this absolutely when He said that it would be impossible for Him to fail…
…Only God speaks thus redle.
Matthew 16,21
From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he MUST go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, AND be raised again the third day
Matthew 17,22
And while they abode in Galilee, Jesus said unto them, The Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of men: AND they shall kill him, AND the third day he shall be raised again. And they were exceeding sorry
Luke 24,44
And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not. Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
These few examples of many show that Jesus was openly confirming He indeed was “God”…
…So I would hope you might consider these Scriptures in your view that Jesus wasn’t God.
What the Prophets all said,
Isa 35,4
Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you. Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped. Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing: for in the wilderness shall waters break out, and streams in the desert
We know how Jesus answered John’s Apostles when they came to ask Him IF He was really the one.
R
redle
Guest
Thanks for elaborating. It’s going to take a while to digest all of that.
P
Pythons
Guest
No rush my friend - may God bless you redle and forgive me for not 1st giving you a warm welcome…
…To Catholic Answers Forums.
…We are all in the learning process until we climb in the box.
T
tqualey
Guest
.Hi, Johnnyjones,
Ah, I think you do owe me - so be sure to incorporate the standard sentence structure
God bless
Ah, I think you do owe me - so be sure to incorporate the standard sentence structure
God bless
S
sarayya
Guest
sons of God
?
?
S
SteveVH
Guest
Welcome to CAF. To what are you responding?sons of God
^^^^^
K
Kc906
Guest
I came across a very detailed web site (lots of scripture) about two years ago that goes into this topic from a Trinitarian point of view. I am not promoting this web site in any way, but I think it sheds good light on the subject.
With that said, the pre-incarnate Word of God revealed himself to his creation in many ways, at many times. When scripture and the ECF’s mention the pre-incarnate Jesus revealing himself to Moses through the burning bush, we don’t literally believe that the Word was “created” simply because he was called Angel of the Lord here in scripture. Just as a JW would not believe the Word was Yahweh/Jehovah because the very next verse in scripture said that Yahweh called out to Moses from the burning bush.
Exodus 3:2-4, 2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.” 4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
URL on Michael: creation-science-prophecy.com/michael.htm
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