Refuting Sola Fide (faith only doctrine) Part 2

[souldiver]

I’m familiar with verses that require Christians to follow Jesus and God the father and that faith and actions should work together to complete faith like in the book of James. Some Catholic sources says it’s the initial Christianhood that requires only faith but keeping yourself saved requires you to follow Jesus, the apostles and God and maybe the church leaders. But I also found these. I need explanation.

Titus 3:4-8
But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone.

*Ephesians 2:8-10
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
*
See in these examples, it both teaches a that a Christian is saved not by works but by grace, mercy and faith. While later says that Christians ought to do “good works”. Looks conflicted, I need explanation.

It’s conflicting too in Catholic Answers

catholic.com/quickquestions/doesnt-john-316-clearly-indicate-that-faith-alone-is-necessary-for-salvation

This one says "grace alone"

catholic.com/magazine/articles/we-can-work-it-out

In this one, the word “work” is referring to the “works of the law” which is the Mosaic Law. Probably specific for that Ephesians verses.

I found something that explicitly, Paul is endorsing “faith plus righteousness” and setting aside the law that Abraham recieved(But I know it’s Moses who got the “old laws”)

*Romans 4:13
It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.
*

Romans 4:6
David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

And what does this mean of righteousness apart from works? Between righteousness and works, what’s the difference?

Romans 4:9-11
We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised.
*
In this one, it’s faith only that what made him righteous. And the work which is the circumcision is said to be the “seal of righteousness”. What does it mean? A completed righteousness, or merely a* notification of righteousness**? Works as notification of righteousness is taught to me by a Baptist Protestant, it’s what he said defend Sola Fide from the book of James verses that requires works and faith together.

That’s all for now. This is my old topic discussing this. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=969028&highlight=refuting
I’m rereading it, I forgot most of the replies.

 

[souldiver]

bump

 

[fred_conty]

Yes I can see your point that it can become rather confusing when the Bible seems to be a little foggy in it’s treatment of rightousness thru faith, and then tagging along works.

Since there is quite a number of quotes in the OP dealing with faith and works, there isn’t enough time to treat each one. But I can summerize the thoughts about faith and works that they have in common. To explain this connection, the background of “rightousness” needs explaining.

Rightousness, “being right with God”, is what faith is all about. It puts the man in the state of goodness and also makes him pleasing to God. So that after becoming rightous, pleasing, then all that he does (works) is pleasing/rightous to God as well. If rightousness is not first obtained, then it follows that nothing he “does” can be rightous/pleasing either on a supernatural level or God’s level.

This means that works in themselves before rightousness are not worthy of God, but that works after rightouness are worthy of God. So the gift of faith or the grace of faith is the start, not works. But after that gift of faith, then works take on meaning in God’s eye in a big way because of the state of rightousness. Catholics call this rightousness “the state of grace”. From this moment onward, the state of grace requires a man to attain to perfection as God is perfect. Which means we are to immulate the Son of God, Jesus, in our life … “going about doing good” as Jesus did. We are now into a way of life, both inward by being in grace, and outward by doing what is pleasing to God.

Daniel 3
And now we follow you with all our heart and we revere you and seek your face.

 

[souldiver]

Yes I can see your point that it can become rather confusing when the Bible seems to be a little foggy in it’s treatment of rightousness thru faith, and then tagging along works.

Since there is quite a number of quotes in the OP dealing with faith and works, there isn’t enough time to treat each one. But I can summerize the thoughts about faith and works that they have in common. To explain this connection, the background of “rightousness” needs explaining.

Rightousness, “being right with God”, is what faith is all about. It puts the man in the state of goodness and also makes him pleasing to God. So that after becoming rightous, pleasing, then all that he does (works) is pleasing/rightous to God as well. If rightousness is not first obtained, then it follows that nothing he “does” can be rightous/pleasing either on a supernatural level or God’s level.

This means that works in themselves before rightousness are not worthy of God, but that works after rightouness are worthy of God. So the gift of faith or the grace of faith is the start, not works. But after that gift of faith, then works take on meaning in God’s eye in a big way because of the state of rightousness. Catholics call this rightousness “the state of grace”. From this moment onward, the state of grace requires a man to attain to perfection as God is perfect. Which means we are to immulate the Son of God, Jesus, in our life … “going about doing good” as Jesus did. We are now into a way of life, both inward by being in grace, and outward by doing what is pleasing to God.

Thanks.

 

[jcrichton]

I’m familiar with verses that require Christians to follow Jesus and God the father and that faith and actions should work together to complete faith like in the book of James. Some Catholic sources says it’s the initial Christianhood that requires only faith but keeping yourself saved requires you to follow Jesus, the apostles and God and maybe the church leaders. But I also found these. I need explanation.

Titus 3:4-8
But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone.

Ephesians 2:8-10
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

See in these examples, it both teaches a that a Christian is saved not by works but by grace, mercy and faith. While later says that Christians ought to do “good works”. Looks conflicted, I need explanation.

It’s conflicting too in Catholic Answers

catholic.com/quickquestions/doesnt-john-316-clearly-indicate-that-faith-alone-is-necessary-for-salvation

This one says "grace alone"

catholic.com/magazine/articles/we-can-work-it-out

In this one, the word “work” is referring to the “works of the law” which is the Mosaic Law. Probably specific for that Ephesians verses.

I found something that explicitly, Paul is endorsing “faith plus righteousness” and setting aside the law that Abraham recieved(But I know it’s Moses who got the “old laws”)

*Romans 4:13
It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.
*

Romans 4:6
David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

And what does this mean of righteousness apart from works? Between righteousness and works, what’s the difference?

Romans 4:9-11
We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised.
*
In this one, it’s faith only that what made him righteous. And the work which is the circumcision is said to be the “seal of righteousness”. What does it mean? A completed righteousness, or merely a* notification of righteousness**? Works as notification of righteousness is taught to me by a Baptist Protestant, it’s what he said defend Sola Fide from the book of James verses that requires works and faith together.

That’s all for now. This is my old topic discussing this. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=969028&highlight=refuting
I’m rereading it, I forgot most of the replies.

Hi!
…you have two issues: works of the Law (which is inclusive of the Ten Commandments) and good works which is required of the Believers as demonstrative of their Fellowship with Christ (God’s Righteousness and Grace abounds only through Christ).

This is one of the most complicated issues between Catholics and non-Catholics.

None of us are saved by the works of the Law since the Law points to our sinful existence: every single tenet must perfected (practiced); yet, man is unable to uphold such high requirements; ergo, man will fail and not obtain Salvation.

Grace: Righteousness: Salvation: God is the One that visits man with such Gift. Man cannot obtain Salvation on his own. Jesus’ crucifixion gained us Justification: Justification allows us to be seen in Christ’s Righteousness by God; God Blesses us with Grace; we are Called to Live in Righteousness and Grace; the good works of the Believers demonstrate that we Believe in Christ and that we Believe Christ: our Salvation is hidden in Christ!

Abraham Believed Yahweh God (Abram, you are Abraham, father of many nations; Abraham go… Abraham sacrifice for Me… Abraham through your offspring/seed the nations of the world will be Blessed…); Abraham Believed God even when He Commanded that He sacrifice the son of the Promise (Isaac), therefore God attributed his Faith as Righteousness.

Through our “good works” we demonstrate Abraham’s Faith: we Believe in God and we Believe God.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Reuben_J]

In this year of Mercy, Catholics are even more confronted with the needs for doing corporal and spiritual work of mercy in order to earn indulgence.

Scripture is very clear. Mt 25, " you do this to me when you did to the least of my brethren. Come, inherit the Kingdom that have been prepared for you." And he separates the goats from the sheep. (Paraphrased)

 

[fred_conty]

Thanks.

Your welcome and God bless.

 

[souldiver]

I think I got to this old conclusion of mine again.

The Christian needs to have both faith, and works being done by the Christian but it is not counted as merit for the Christian who worked, but the work is counted as a merit of God instead, although the Christian did the work. And the “work” mentioned in Romans is the Mosaic law. Is this right?

I’m adding, the Christian’s work is God’s merit, yes, but necessary for salvation to avoid the contradiction found many times in the Bible.

Again, is this a good reason? Is it close to the Catholic intepretation?

I wrote that in my another old topic: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=990629&highlight=works

I’ve going in circles in this topic. But it’s pretty apparent that Sola Fide is contradictory to the majority of the Bible.

I think I’ll study Penance next, so far, I found out that it is Biblical based on the “repentance” command of Jesus.

 

[souldiver]

Though may instead of merit maybe should I say credit to God.

 

[po18guy]

Remember that no single bible verse, chapter or even book controls our salvation. The scriptures are a seamless garment and must be taken in their completeness. We will be judged according to what we have done - which does not directly reference our faith. Yet, we labor in vain if it is without faith, or with a dead faith. So many “bible Christians” are hung up “solely” on the writings of Saint Paul. As great and inspired as those writings are, more emphasis should be placed on what Jesus said about salvation. We must believe and be baptized, receive the Holy Spirit, and then “bear fruit” - which can be done only by producing something - and not simply within ourselves.

To that end, we have the spiritual works of mercy as well as the corporal works of mercy. Anyone may perform the corporal works of mercy, such as the “good Samaritan” did for the wounded man, but where is the spiritual aspect of that? The corporal works are balanced by the spiritual works, as it is the spirit which must be saved. If the spirit is lost, there is no reason for hope in the resurrection.

 

[jcrichton]

Remember that no single bible verse, chapter or even book controls our salvation. The scriptures are a seamless garment and must be taken in their completeness. We will be judged according to what we have done - which does not directly reference our faith. Yet, we labor in vain if it is without faith, or with a dead faith. So many “bible Christians” are hung up “solely” on the writings of Saint Paul. As great and inspired as those writings are, more emphasis should be placed on what Jesus said about salvation. We must believe and be baptized, receive the Holy Spirit, and then “bear fruit” - which can be done only by producing something - and not simply within ourselves.

To that end, we have the spiritual works of mercy as well as the corporal works of mercy. Anyone may perform the corporal works of mercy, such as the “good Samaritan” did for the wounded man, but where is the spiritual aspect of that? The corporal works are balanced by the spiritual works, as it is the spirit which must be saved. If the spirit is lost, there is no reason for hope in the resurrection.

Hi, Po!
…I would say that they “are hung up” on their “interpretation” of St. Paul, rather than on his Writings!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[po18guy]

Hi, Po!
…I would say that they “are hung up” on their “interpretation” of St. Paul, rather than on his Writings!

Maran atha!

Angel

Let’s see if we can find them in scripture…oh yeah.

1 Corinthians 1:12-15

What I mean is that each one of you says, “I belong to Paul,” or “I belong to Apol′los,” or “I belong to Cephas,” or “I belong to Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? I am thankful that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Ga′ius; lest any one should say that you were baptized in my name.

Pretty much…

 

[epostle]

We have instant coffee, instant potatoes, instant messaging, and

INSTANT JUSTIFICATION!!!

 

[jcrichton]

Let’s see if we can find them in scripture…oh yeah. Pretty much…

Exactly!
…St. Paul asks, “is Christ divided?”

…those who insist on division ignore St. Paul’s word while simultaneously claiming their “right” to do it their way… they quickly recall Christ telling the Disciples that when two or three are gathered in His Name, He is there (or those that the Disciples wanted Christ to rebuke for acting separate from them and He did not); yet, when Christ warns that those who do not gather with Him they would be scattered… well, that’s completely ignored or given a revisionist spin to accommodate their dissenting spirit. :sad_yes::sad_yes::sad_yes:

Maran atha!

Angel