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EphelDuath
Guest
Even when I cite James 2:24 and Matthew 7:21, my Protestant friend shakes his head and points at Acts 16:31 and Romans 10:9. How do I explain to him that these verses do not imply faith alone is what saves you?
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SpiritMeadow
Guest
i sure wish I knew. All I ever get is “you’re not reading in context” then a long and I mean long dissertation with tons of biblical quotes. It appears to be a cut and past job from some protestant site. If you get an answer, I’ll sure be glad to hear it.
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Seamus_Sully
Guest
Faith comes by hearing.
God so loved the world that He sent His Word.
God is Love.
**Love **is heard by faith.
Next.
Jesus clearly teaches that love is first.
Love is first in that Love gives energeo or life to faith.
Love is first then comes faith.
God so loved the world that He sent His Word.
God is Love.
**Love **is heard by faith.
Next.
Jesus clearly teaches that love is first.
Love is first in that Love gives energeo or life to faith.
Love is first then comes faith.
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bengal_fan
Guest
no protestant really believes in “faith alone”. they believe in grace alone by faith alone. God gives us His saving grace through our faith, that faith that allows us to receive His grace will produce works. the works don’t give us grace, the faith that produces works does.
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Seamus_Sully
Guest
My blood brother believed saved by faith alone!
He held that position for thirty years.
He held that position for thirty years.
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Catholic_Dude
Guest
Protestants have a DIFFERENT (unBiblical) definition of grace/justification. Here is a thread I made on the issue:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=165229
There are plenty of verses that show good works are part of salvation and he has no right to brush them off. Shaking his head doesnt mean he can just brush off those verses you gave him.
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foundthelight
Guest
I like to use two great statements of Christ.
That unless we are baptised by water and spirit we cannot enter the kingdom of heaven, and that unless we eat of His body and drink of His blood we cannot enter the kingdom.
I also point out that the only place where “faith alone” is used in the bible is by James, condemning a faith that is alone.
The truth is that your friend will not accept any of these arguments. By using these arguments we plant the seed of truth in their minds. A seed that the Holy Spirit will feed and water until, if the soil is fertile, it will grow into the true faith. The soil is not always fertile.
Your friend is as frustrated as you in that you will not accept his arguments!
Good luck,
In Christ,
Willis
That unless we are baptised by water and spirit we cannot enter the kingdom of heaven, and that unless we eat of His body and drink of His blood we cannot enter the kingdom.
I also point out that the only place where “faith alone” is used in the bible is by James, condemning a faith that is alone.
The truth is that your friend will not accept any of these arguments. By using these arguments we plant the seed of truth in their minds. A seed that the Holy Spirit will feed and water until, if the soil is fertile, it will grow into the true faith. The soil is not always fertile.
Your friend is as frustrated as you in that you will not accept his arguments!
Good luck,
In Christ,
Willis
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Teflon93
Guest
Have them look in their red-texted Bibles and count the number of times Christ urges us to do something rather than believe something.
Matthew 19, for example.
Matthew 19, for example.
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bengal_fan
Guest
and i would say look at who He is speaking to… His followers. the people who were claiming to believe in Him. so, He was telling them what the people who have faith would be doing. He was not saying the works come before the faith. He is saying that out of faith, works will flow. if they don’t, then you have a dead faith and you will be cut off. works flow from the faith, and it’s the faith that allows us to receive God’s grace which saves us. so we are saved by grace alone (what the church teaches) and we receive that grace by faith and that faith will produce works. the works have nothing to do with receiving the grace, they are the byproduct of receiving the grace.
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wanner47
Guest
Go to biblechristiansociety.com/ and download (free of charge) John Martigoni’s debate on this subject. It’s excellent! 
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quasimodo
Guest
I guess my question is: “Faith alone” as compared to what exactly?
The common narrative is that Catholics are trying to “work” their way into heaven - which is, of course, a lie repeated by the ignorant or liars. I would say that a living faith is salvific but a dead faith is not. “What brings faith alive?” is the obvious question - which James answers so well.
The common narrative is that Catholics are trying to “work” their way into heaven - which is, of course, a lie repeated by the ignorant or liars. I would say that a living faith is salvific but a dead faith is not. “What brings faith alive?” is the obvious question - which James answers so well.
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SpiritMeadow
Guest
What always amuses me about this debate between proddies and Catholics is that we always have had the best of the deal. We believe that God gives us the grace of faith, and we express our faith by works. Proddies think that they have faith and that’s it. If they are wrong, the have a big problem …we can only over do, never under do…I think that’s why they are so desperate to win the argument.
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Calvinator
Guest
Just a couple of things. “Proddie” may not be the most charitable way of refering to Protestant’s. Maybe not as bad as me calling you a papist but not too charitable just the same.
Secondly, all of the reformers (as far as I know) taught that a saving faith had works accompanying it or else it was a dead faith. I’ll have to go back and re-read the canons of Trent that discuss justification but they seem not to have understood what the reformers mean by “faith alone”.
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
There are lots of ways in which this issue could be discussed 
- I’d like to know how one can refute something that, in *some *sense, is true 
bobbygro.wordpress.com/2007/10/14/the-catholic-roots-of-the-protestant-gospel/Justification by Faith: The Lutheran-Catholic Convergence
One cannot come to Christ by any way, except by faith: not by anything else. As the Council of Trent points out: “…faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all justification” (see the context). Everything, everything, & everything that we have “in Christ” is a consequence of the gift to the sinner of justifying faith. Nobody ever came to Christ except by faith, and by that alone. (I say that as a Catholic BTW - I’m not a Protestant, just a Pape
Just so there’s no doubt.)It is because we cannot come to Him by any other way, that the Good News is the Good News - if we had to be saved through our own initiative, rather than through His gift, not a single human being could be redeemed. His entire purpose, from the resolving to create, to the Judgement, is entirely gratuitous - it cannot be otherwise, because He is alone God; there is only the one: so He has no motive to act except His boundless, uncompelled, unrequired freedom: He acts from sheer grace; from grace alone; from grace & no other cause.
So how is it possible for salvation to be anything but by grace alone ? That would imply that God had changed - & since the Faith itself tells us that God is metaphysically simple (He is not composite) &, is infinite in being, God cannot change. Man can change - but his need of salvation & of grace does not. It follows that God is & remains & will be Our Saviour by no means except by grace. Which is to say that God saves us by His grace alone.
Salvation by grace alone reflects God’s very nature, His very activity & working & purpose: if it is not true somehow, in some sense, that is equivalent to saying there is no God.
As for good works - “righteousness” in the OT includes the promotion of righteousness: a righteous king was a king who would do what furthered righteousness. Jesus, the Son of David, does exactly that: from which it follows that the members of His Body cannot avoid being involved in doing righteousness. As if there were any room for doubt, St. Paul reminds us that Christians do not belong to themselves, but to Christ; &, they are to have the mind of Christ.
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ryanoneil
Guest
Agree with him that faith is necessary then overload him with scripture that talks about the necessity of works!
“My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue, but in WORK (‘ergo’) and truth” (1 Jo. 3:18). Christ’s commandment is to love one another, and here we learn that we are fulfill this commandment by our WORKS.
“What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have WORKS (‘erga’)? Can faith save him?” (Ja. 2:14).
“Faith by itself, if it does not have not WORKS (‘erga’), is dead” (Ja. 2:17).
“You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that, and tremble!” (Ja. 2:19).
“But you want to know, you foolish man, that faith without WORKS (‘ergon’) is dead? Was Abraham our father justified by works (‘ergon’), when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working with his WORKS (‘ergois’), and by WORKS (‘ergon’) faith was made perfect?” (Ja. 2:20-22).
“We give thanks to God always for all of you, making mention of you in our prayers, remembering without ceasing your WORK OF FAITH (‘ergou tes pisteos’), labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father” (1 Thess. 1:2-3).
“Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the WORK OF FAITH (‘ergon pisteos’) with power” (2 Thess. 1:11).
“I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus and in Jerusalem, and throughout all the region of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent, turn to God, and do WORKS (‘erga’) befitting repentance” (Acts 26:19-20).
For more scripture follow this link members.aol.com/uticacw/baptist/salvation3.html
Here is another one scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html#salvation-I
Then I’d ask him for scripture that discounts the necessity of works. He’ll try and stretch the meaning for his purpose, but then hammer him again. You’ll have so much scripture backing you that his twisted interpretation of one or two verses won’t compare.
Good Luck,
Ryan
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Teflon93
Guest
Great—so feel free to point out comparitive numbers where Christ tells them to believe.
The Gospels don’t only recount Christ’s preaching, but how he pulled his disciples together. If Scripture contains everything necessary for salvation, and if Scripture points to sola fide, then Christ ought to tell his disciples what to believe more often than what to do.
Catholics do not torture James the way others do—we believe works flow from faith more strongly by far than the Reformers did.
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drafdog
Guest
Since the Council of Orange declaired anathema anyone who denied that we are saved by grace alone, I would say that we tread on shakey ground when we try to agrue that works have anything to do with salvation. The Catholic position is that good works grow out of a lively faith. Works are the evidence of salvific faith.
Matthew
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Teflon93
Guest
We are indeed saved by grace alone in that no one whom God chooses not to save will be saved.
However, Christ told us what to do—Matthew 19 “Keep the Commandments” for example----TO BE SAVED.
We cannot do what Christ bid us do without sufficient grace. Yet all who receive such grace through Baptism will not be saved. Sanctifying grace is also required, and sanctifying grace requires our involvement. We are not hierodules.
All of which is yet another way of saying OSAS is non-biblical nonsense and that faith requires works just as James says.
We will continue to point out ad infinitum that one cannot “work one’s way to Heaven” in the absence of God’s grace, and that what works we do pleasing in the sight of God are a natural outgrowth of God’s grace. Since we have free will, some will always choose the pit over using the grace given them, as has been done since the Fall.
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bengal_fan
Guest
how about where Jesus says:
“this is the work of God, that you believe in him whom He has sent.”
that is John chapter 6 (the favorite chapter of most of the catholics i know, it is also one of my favorites). of course Jesus gives His followers things to do, but He says often that believing is the greatest work. and the point of James is that works flow from that faith. Paul in Ephesians says we receive grace through that faith and that faith will produce works, but the catalyst is faith.
“this is the work of God, that you believe in him whom He has sent.”
that is John chapter 6 (the favorite chapter of most of the catholics i know, it is also one of my favorites). of course Jesus gives His followers things to do, but He says often that believing is the greatest work. and the point of James is that works flow from that faith. Paul in Ephesians says we receive grace through that faith and that faith will produce works, but the catalyst is faith.
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