Refuting the Rapture or "Left Behind" Theory

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:confused:
Ok maybe i wasn’t very clear the first time
Bill_Cherry said:
sigh<:cool:
Do you think that all tschnology will be lost?
Is this an event that will not make the headlines?
Don’t you think it’ll be all over the internet and television news.
LIVE?
in real time?
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and yes it will probably be biased.👍
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being attacked by a pack of laughing hyenas isn’t as funny as it sounds

sheesh
 
Rapture, as is mainly taught in America, is absolutely false.

They say there will be “left-behind” believers; where is this in Scripture?

At the return of Jesus on the last day (His inauguration as King on the Earth) He will reward His saints and bring His wrath upon all who do not obey the Gospel, Himself being the Word of God, which is a Sword, bringing division between light and darkness. Matt 24:31, John 6:44; Hebrews 4:12.

All believers will be raised, and there will be a division between those who did good deeds in love (John 3:21), and those who did not Matt 25:35-46; John 5:29, some will go into eternal life and some into eternal damnation Daniel 12:2; Matthew 24:51 but the unbelieving will be destroyed by the wrath of God.
Curiously, Daniel 7:12 says there will be survivors (the first 3 beasts) over whom the saints will co-reign with Christ Luke 19:17

There is almost no time between the resurrection of the believers and the wrath upon unbelievers; it is nearly a singular event. If you remember,

“In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed…” 1 Corinthians 15:52

The last trump is the 7th trump, wherein the wrath of God is revealed: the wrath is what overcoming saints are saved from 1 Th 1:10. Just as the 7th trumpet is going to sound, the mystery of God is finished: if the mystery of God Rev 10:7 is anything like the mystery of godliness 1 Tim 3:16, it will end with us being received up into glory; then the 7th trump sound, revealing the “7 bowls of wrath” Rev 15:7. Before the moment that trumpet sounds and the specified bowls of wrath are discharged, no wrath from God is yet on the earth (satan’s, however, is Rev 12)

However, entering into the wedding feast is not the last word for a Christian’s destiny, because in one of Jesus’ parables, there were some believers who entered, but were summarily kicked out for not wearing a wedding garment Matthew 22:11; Rev 16:15 bringing the total fraction of overcoming believers to 1/3, as before stated in Zechariah 13:9:

1] 1/2 of the virgins enter Matthew 25:1-13
2] some of the 1/2 that entered are ousted Matthew 22:11
3] bringing the total fraction of the overcomers to the “1/3” of Zechariah 13:9

The “rapture” is false, as it is taught in mainline American Protestant Christianity, no matter how much they believe it (just like other things the Catholics believe are true but are nonetheless false, as the Scriptures delineate) from what I read.
 
sheesh!
Bill_Cherry said:
I’m gonna make up something…
Although,I should probably leave THIS ALONIANS(I kill me…:rotfl:)
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

13 But we would not have you ignorant,brethren,concerning those who are asleep,that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope.
{It’s important that you get this,so your’e not scared like those other guys}

14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again,even so,through Jesus,God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep.
{since Jesus did it,we will,too!}

15 For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord,that we who are alive,who are left until the coming of the Lord,* shall not preceed those who have fallen asleep*.
{because the scriptures proclaim it,so it’s got to be true,that if you are still standing when Jesus gets her,those who are in dormition are first}

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command,with the archangel’s call,and with the sound of the trumpet of God.And the dead in Christ will rise first;
{self explanitory}
17 then we who are alive,who are left,shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air:and so we shall always be with the Lord.
{Beam me up,Jesus!}
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
{so,just calm down,there guys.}

You can find the rest in chapter 5

Basically,this seems to me to be an exhortation to keep an eye out.

It appears on the surface to imply that those left won’t physically die.
But,even Jesus died before He was ressurected.
that’s the way it works.

John 12:24
For unless a grain of wheat falls to the earth and dies,it remains alone:but if it dies,it bears much fruit.

and…

Matthew 24:40,41
40 Then two men will be in the field;one is taken and one is left.
42 Two women will be grinding at the mill;one is taken and one is left.

Luke 17:37
37 And they said to Him,"Where,Lord?"He said unto them,"Where the body is,there the eagles will be gathered together.

Is this the believer who the eagles are gathering over,or the non-believer?
**
well,…since no one is able to guess…
the believer is the dead guy.the one left standing is the non-believer.
how hard can it be?

(btw-im enjoying this!)
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I’m getting a laugh in this thread… just some of you guys are out there and so right…

Plus, it’s nice being able to express my Catholic opinion on it and not get bashed… LOL
 
there’s heck of alot more to the apocalypse than the typical olson,currie, thigpen, hahn crowd.

Them guys take the most dismissive layer.

I am not saying the fundamentalists are right either.

It’s none of the above.

It’s most profound and intended meaning is surely idealism and spiritual historicism.

If I write a book on my stuff, it’ll blow them guys out of the water. They ain’t mystics. They’re dismissive.
 
spauline said:
there’s heck of alot more to the apocalypse than the typical olson,currie, thigpen, hahn crowd. Them guys take the most dismissive layer. I am not saying the fundamentalists are right either.It’s none of the above. It’s most profound and intended meaning is surely idealism and spiritual historicism. If I write a book on my stuff, it’ll blow them guys out of the water. They ain’t mystics. They’re dismissive.
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Rather that just avering “They’re wrong and only I’m right,” perhaps you should encourage people to read both sides of the argument and let them decide which makes the most sense. As you know, there’s really no definitive Church teaching when it comes to interpreting apocalytic passages in the Scriptures, so as long as one’s interpretation does not contradict official Church doctrine in other areas, one person’s opinion is as good as another in this area.

Let the reader decide – isn’t that the adult thing to do? 🙂
 
Fidelis said:
Rather that just avering “They’re wrong and only I’m right,” perhaps you should encourage people to read both sides of the argument and let them decide which makes the most sense. As you know, there’s really no definitive Church teaching when it comes to interpreting apocalytic passages in the Scriptures, so as long as one’s interpretation does not contradict official Church doctrine in other areas, one person’s opinion is as good as another in this area.

Let the reader decide – isn’t that the adult thing to do? 🙂
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yeah, i agree, let the readers decide.

I guess I should say, they are not WRONG, they are just taking a LESS MEANINGFUL approach.

IOW, they are not helping in any real way to address the true apocalyptic questions. Preterism really does not address any of the apocalyptic mysteries in and of itself. Therefore, their interpretations, INTRINSICALLY, are practically useless. Their data only means things when in relation to larger spiritual ages.
 
Lost_Wanderer said:
…the idea of making eschatology in general borders on fortune telling because it’s attempting to predict the future.
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This maybe is true if one refers to the hobbit or the legend of zelda.

But this is God’s prophecy, his Word, in which he is “batting 1.000” so far. Those that assign a date to his coming are in error. To use a few cases where people make a fortune on teaching end times scenarios is no reason to ignore the prophecy of scripture.
**
Revelation 1:3
Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

Revelation 22:7
“Behold, I am coming soon! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy in this book.”

Revelation 22:10
Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near. …”
**
 
Lev23 said:
This maybe is true if one refers to the hobbit or the legend of zelda.

But this is God’s prophecy, his Word, in which he is “batting 1.000” so far. Those that assign a date to his coming are in error. To use a few cases where people make a fortune on teaching end times scenarios is no reason to ignore the prophecy of scripture.
**
Revelation 1:3
Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

Revelation 22:7
“Behold, I am coming soon! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy in this book.”

Revelation 22:10
Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near. …”
**
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But suppose the terms ‘keeps the words of prophecy’ were to be used as an excuse to allow certain terrible things happen because they believe it is ‘what the Bible was talking about’? I mean just recently I stumbled across a fundamentalist video claiming why ‘the collapse of the US economy HAS to happen’.

I mean doesn’t that bother you? That someone is actually desiring a disaster on the basis that they believe it was part of ‘biblical prophecy’? (Didn’t watch it fully, just the title left me perplexed. -_-;; )

P.S.

I don’t know what you were implying in the first part there about zelda but just so you know, I only used fantasy elements as a way of stating my point: The Rapture theory is just too mediocre and plain to describe an apocalyptic event. :rolleyes:
 
Lev23 said:
But this is God’s prophecy, his Word, in which he is “batting 1.000” so far. Those that assign a date to his coming are in error. To use a few cases where people make a fortune on teaching end times scenarios is no reason to ignore the prophecy of scripture.
**
Revelation 1:3
Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

Revelation 22:7
“Behold, I am coming soon! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy in this book.”

Revelation 22:10
Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near. …”
**
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Since ‘near’ and ‘soon’ do not mean ‘thousands of years’, how is the book ‘batting 1.000’?

Revelation is a book of LITERATURE, not prophecy. It is prophetic only to the extent that in the end, the Lord will be victorious and the faithful will be rewarded.

Apart from that, it was written for the readers of the author’s own time, as a source of strength and encouragement during severe persecution. Nearly all scholarly commentaries acknowldege that.

Those who claim that it refers to today’s events, or those still to come, or to matters of contemporary international politics, are charlatans.
 
beeliner said:
Since ‘near’ and ‘soon’ do not mean ‘thousands of years’, how is the book ‘batting 1.000’?

Revelation is a book of LITERATURE, not prophecy. It is prophetic only to the extent that in the end, the Lord will be victorious and the faithful will be rewarded.

Apart from that, it was written for the readers of the author’s own time, as a source of strength and encouragement during severe persecution. Nearly all scholarly commentaries acknowldege that.

Those who claim that it refers to today’s events, or those still to come, or to matters of contemporary international politics, are charlatans.
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So this is just a book of mans own words for his own comforting while going through persecution?

🤷
 
:confused:

WHAT…ever…

Unfortunately any evidence I have to offer regarding what amounts to human immortality of the spirit belongs to a more heretical branch of metaphysics of which I don’t believe I could discuss on this forum.

However,I do believe that The believer will at least have the personal experiance of being lifted into the air(even though his physical body will drop to the ground;where the eagles are gathered).Whereas the "unsaved"may experience a not so pleasant psycho-spiritual experiance.

Lest a grain of wheat die,…etc,etc,

But I pointed this out in another post or two.

Unless your just really into beating a dead horse…🤷
 
Lev23 said:
So this is just a book of mans own words for his own comforting while going through persecution?

🤷
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Pretty much, yeah. Here, with my emphasis is, first, the interdenominational Good News Bible’s intro:
The Revelation to John was written at a time when Christians were being persecuted because of their faith in Jesus Christ as Lord. The writer’s main concern is to give his readers hope and encouragement, and to urge them to remain faithful during times of suffering and persecution.
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For the most part the book consists of several series of revelations and visions presented in symbolic language that would have been understood by Christians of that day, but would have remained a mystery to all others. As with the themes of a symphony, the themes of this book are repeated again and again in different ways through the various series of visions. Although there are differences of opinion regarding the details of interpretation of the book, the central theme is clear: through Christ the Lord, God will finally and totally defeat all his enemies, including Satan, and will reward his faithful people with the blessings of a new heaven and a new earth when this victory is complete.
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…and the Catholic NAB states:
This book contains an account of visions in symbolic and allegorical language borrowed extensively from the Old Testament, especially Ezekiel, Zechariah, and Daniel. Whether or not these visions were real experiences of the author or simply literary conventions employed by him is an open question.
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This much, however, is certain: symbolic descriptions are not to be taken as literal descriptions, nor is the symbolism meant to be pictured realistically.
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The Book of Revelation cannot be adequately understood except against the historical background that occasioned its writing. Like Daniel and other apocalypses, it was composed as resistance literature to meet a crisis. The book itself suggests that the crisis was ruthless persecution of the early church by the Roman authorities; the harlot Babylon symbolizes pagan Rome, the city on seven hills. The book is, then, an exhortation and admonition to Christians of the first century to stand firm in the faith and to avoid compromise with paganism, despite the threat of adversity and martyrdom; they are to await patiently the fulfillment of God’s mighty promises.
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Though the perspective is eschatological–ultimate salvation and victory are said to take place at the end of the present age when Christ will come in glory at the parousia–the book presents the decisive struggle of Christ and his followers against Satan and his cohorts as already over. Christ’s overwhelming defeat of the kingdom of Satan ushered in the everlasting reign of God. Even the forces of evil unwittingly carry out the divine plan, for God is the sovereign Lord of history.
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The Book of Revelation had its origin in a time of crisis, but it remains valid and meaningful for Christians of all time. In the face of apparently insuperable evil, either from within or from without, all Christians are called to trust in Jesus’ promise, “Behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age” (Matthew 28:20). Those who remain steadfast in their faith and confidence in the risen Lord need have no fear. Suffering, persecution, even death by martyrdom, though remaining impenetrable mysteries of evil, do not comprise an absurd dead end. No matter what adversity or sacrifice Christians may endure, they will in the end triumph over Satan and his forces because of their fidelity to Christ the victor. This is the enduring message of the book; it is a message of hope and consolation and challenge for all who dare to believe.
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As you can see, these descriptions are similar and reflect the concensus of SCHOLARLY opinion, Catholic and ‘mainline’ Protestant.

Fundamentalism, being anti-intellectual at its core and therefore incapable of producing scholarship, will no doubt continue to claim that the descriptions in Revelation refer specifically to our own time, to our future, and to the nations of the modern world.
 
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