Refuting the "Whore of Babylon" Fundamentalists

  • Thread starter Thread starter 1AugustSon7
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
1

1AugustSon7

Guest
We often come across sects and their members who make much adieu about the Whore of Babylon. Thankfully these people are usually quite conversant in Scripture. Because this is so, it provides us with a basis for arguing with them in a way they can’t deny. Those who run websites or blogs might want to take a moment or some time to dedicate a page to refuting the Whore of Babylon = Roman Catholic Church error. You can use key words so that persons first hearing of and investigating that thesis might pull up your blog/website. The next two posts will contain a lot of useful points for refuting even the most stubborn of those who think the RCC is the Whore of Babylon.
 
The Apocalypse is nearly all a re-hashment, so to speak, of older biblical prophecies. There is nothing in the Apocalypse in my mind that is not at least prefigured in some way in the Old Testament. The Apocalypse of Saint John itself makes this clear when it refers to “Mystery Babylon”. Even the most ignorant of persons have difficulty imagining in that term something that is not very old or a continuation or manifestation of something very old. They also perceive that it is a religion of sorts, and clearly a mystical one that practices and believes in some form of mysticism. Babylon, of course, was an ancient nation that practiced a religion abominable to God and His people. It was built around a false religion.

Fundamentalists engage in a classical error when they interpret the Apocalypse carnally, as opposed to considering the spiritual significance. A carnal interpretation savours something of the truth because it reads the text literally, which it should be, however it strays in giving a false and unrealistic interpretation of the data. Take, for example, the fact that the Apocalypse speaks of a city that is “fallen”. Now what does this mean? Does it mean that an earthly city has collapsed into rubble? Perhaps, but what does God care if some city is reduced to dust? Heck, even if New York City was reduced to ashes it would not be cataclysmic to the whole world: a significant hurt and enormous loss in both life and wealth, but not such that other cities could not quickly replace or accomodate. It would not be, as they say, the end of the world- except for New Yorkers who think that without New York the world is not worth living in.

The Faith, furthermore, is much more than a single physical city. Even after Jerusalem was sacked by the Babylonians, the religion was not lost or destroyed. It lived on in its faithful adherents. It spread across the earth. Again later when it was sacked by the Romans, and nearly all of the Jewish elite and a super-majority of its faithful adherents were actually in the city itself, even that did not result in the complete loss of the Jewish religion. The physical destruction of one city does not ruin a religion per se, since all things can be rebuilt. Furthermore, even if you interpret this city to be the city of Rome and by extension the Roman Catholic Church and religion, the complete destruction of Rome would not i) cause a single merchant to weep in complete despair, nor ii) would it be catastrophic to the Roman Catholic Faith and religion. Most Catholics, after all, live out their whole lives, Faith and religion without ever even needing to set foot in the city of Rome.

Some Fundamentalists therefore imagine that the City of Rome will be destroyed at something like a council, with all of the world’s bishops present, such that the annihilation of the city would result in the loss of the Church’s ability to pass on Holy Orders. But this also is false. Priests would yet still remain and, at least for one generation, Catholics could still receive the Sacraments and celebrate Holy Mass. Further, the requirements for elevation to the Papacy does not actually necessitate there even be any bishops. The minimum requirement is simply a Catholic man. Arguably, any Catholic man could be elevated to the Papacy and, being made Pope, be capable of making new Bishops and Cardinals. Now some might debate the logistics of this, but that is beside the point, because it is at least still arguable, and that alone presents the ability or capacity to perpetuate the Roman Catholic Church and religion, even if some or many do not believe it suffices.

Further, as a practiced religion, the doctrines would still remain for people to believe or immitate. It might be transformed into something like a debating club, but people could still be baptized and try to keep the Faith. So even the complete destruction of all the bishops and cardinals would not necessarily mean the complete doom of the Roman Catholic Faith and religion; in fact, because baptism does not even require a Christian to be its minister, technically any two people are capable of restarting the Roman Catholic religion, though admittedly again it wouldn’t have the other six Sacraments. But all of this is beside the point to the theory that we are debunking, because that theory says in effect that the Roman Catholic religion is a product of the devil and run by wicked, evil and conniving men. Now if that were actually the case, why would they let a mere technicality completely ruin their diabolical plans? It would be an easy enough thing to fake some miracle or apparition, for example, and by that means restart the whole edifice of the imagined evil that is Roman Catholicism; and with Popes, bishops, priests and Sacraments to boot. Joseph Smigh started a completely new religion in this way, likewise did Mohammad start a religion in this way. It is therefore absolutely silly to think that the destruction of the city of Rome would actually ruin the devil’s efforts in this world by his supposed favourite instrument, the Roman Catholic Church. Something rather more than that is necessary.

But let us ask the question: Does “fallen” here make more sense if it means spiritually fallen? Why yes it immediately does, and does without doing any violence to the text. We speak of people “falling away” all of the time and never mean they have actually falllen down physically. This city, therefore, is “fallen” and it has fallen so far from its original that it causes men to weep and lament bitterly. But why would merchants care if a spiritual city has “fallen”? Moreover, why would they weep, lament or despair? The city of Rome is but one city. There are and will always be others that buy and sell goods or could be used to organize markets or operations and be used as a headquarters. Whatever it is these men are lamenting, it is something that has been completely lost and irreplaceable.
 
What, then, could that be? We know it cannot be, for the reasons already given, something physical or something that could be reproduced. It must be something different.

The Antichrist, as we know, will be one actual man, though there are many antichrists, as the Scriptures say. He will be the epitome of all these. But we know also that it is specifically a (singular) spirit that drives this effort. The Scriptures tell us that plainly. Obviously that singular spirit is and must be the devil who, as an angel, is himself a spirit. What, then, can we conclude about Antichrist? He will be a demoniac, just as Judas was. As Judas was possessed by the devil to such an extent that the Scriptures plainly say that the devil actually entered him, so we can be certain that likewise Antichrist will be absolutely possessed by the devil. This of course suffices to explain his peculiar powers and awesome influence that will single him out from among the rest of mankind. He will enjoy the devils intelligence (i.e. his cleverness and craftiness), which as we know is significant: “knowledge puffeth up, but charity buildeth up”. Combine an awesome intellect with a man who has seemingly superhuman powers and we can only imagine what he could do; after all, Napoleon, Hitler, Stalin, Caesar Augustus and Alexander the Great never worked anything like miracles (except in the loosest sense of the word, e.g. a miraculous military victory), but they nearly conquered and ruled the whole (known) world, whether directly or indirectly. Add to that apparently superhuman powers, and we can only imagine what a man could effectively do, even without need of an actual army. For example, he could propagate a new religion and by clever speech draw in an enormous mass of mankind to the practice of it, with Antichrist of course being the head of that religion, and likely even himself being worshipped as if he were God.

But what are the merchants weeping? Well, what does any merchant, whether his goods be physical (or of a spiritual kind, even) prey upon? Greed, which is to say idolatry. If the greed that is so fundamental for driving any sort of merchant or market is lost, then consequently there will be no demand for the merchant who makes his living trying to satiate that greed or desire. Candle merchants must have weeped bitterly at the advent of the light bulb. Horse breeders and trainers at the advent of the automobile. These needs being lost, satisfied or replaced, the market for their wears consequently disappear and, with time, almost completely. Now the question arises, if the Roman Catholic Church and religion were completely and utterly destroyed, and even every single Catholic along with it, why would that end all idolatry or greed? Those who make the Church buildings, altars, etc., could go on to make other things.

Even if we assume, for the sake of argument, that Roman Catholicism is, as the Fundamentalists would have it, the worst sort of epitome of idolatry, what is to stop it from reemerging in another form? Nothing, of course. Men would still be susceptible to idolatry and greed and, therefore, the merchant has a potential market. Clearly, then, with the fall of Mystery Babylon mentioned in the Apocalypse, the whole world order that is built upon idolatry and greed collapses and disappears along with it. Now this surely would be an awesome miracle, and the destruction of the city of Rome or even the whole Church could not in any way whatsoever effect anything even close to this. No, it would in fact require the destruction of this present world, at least as we know it, to accomplish this. For this to happen completely, men would need to cease to have needs entirely. We would cease to be cold, hungry, sick, et cetera. All of this would and must disappear, such that anyone who makes his living satisying these needs is now without a market. Further, those previously mentioned needs (for clothing, housing, medicine, et al.) generate activities and industries that are completely legitimate: being a doctor, carpenter or whatever is not inherently sinful, so why God would want these people to weep, wail and lament the loss of their industry, as if to be punished for providing those goods?

What we are probably seeing in the Apocalypse, then, is the loss of that market that those wolves in sheep’s clothing prey upon, which is to say ignorance, loneliness, confusion, despair and so on; not to mention the very heart of idolatry and greed, whether of self, wealth and power or the world or all of the above. Now this industry, as we know, God detests: He detests those who lead others into sin, error or idolatry or who strive by sophistry and fair-seeming words to lure men into error and even an evil life (“Woe to those by whom scandal comes…”). Therefore, it is safe to say that whatever city has “fallen” in the Apocalypse has so utterly fallen forever that men will no longer be able to “traffic” in each other’s souls, i.e. to beguile one another even to their souls’ everlasting ruin.

What these men are therefore weeping over is what Saint Augustine might call “the city of man” or “the city of men” (as opposed to the city of God, the Church). They are weeping over the loss of this world upon the advent of a completely new one. Now surely that is despicable and diabolical, to weep over the end of tears, suffering, sickness, cruelty, crime, murder, vanity, death itself and all manner of sin. Clearly that kind of lamenting is worth singling out as wicked, pathetic, vain and completely evil. Clearly, then, the Apocalypse is talking about exactly what everybody already knows is the subject of the Apocalypse, i.e. the end of the world.
 
Or you could just ignore them and not give them a voice to preach too 🤷
 
Or you could just ignore them and not give them a voice to preach too 🤷
This is the apologetics section 🙂

Regardless, the internet provides a powerful and useful means for nipping error in the bud. We can certainly frustrate those who produce false interpretations and quite likely save or prevent people from being beguiled by them.

Therefore it is important and useful to produce apologetics that refute the errors of others.
 
Many think that the Whore of Babylon was either, Ancient Pagan Rome, or Jerusalem. There is much evidence pointing to both.

catholic.com/tracts/hunting-the-whore-of-babylon

Here is an over view I sent a friend for an early dating of the book of Revelation

Does the Bible say that St. John was on the island of Patmos under Caesar Nero!

I think so and here are some reasons why St. John wrote Revelation before 70 A.D.

First lets look at Scripture!

Revelation 11:1 I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there. 2But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.

Revelation 12:6 The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

Revelation 13:5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months.

**Nero officially commissioned Vespasian to destroy the city of Jerusalem and the war lasted 42 months from February of 67 A.D. to August-September of 70 A.D.

The Jewish rebellion against Rome began in 66 AD and in February of 67 Nero formally commissioned Vespasian to put down the revolt. It ended in August-September of 70 AD with the destruction of the Jewish temple in Jerusalem so the actual war covers a period of time of basically 42 months or 3.5 years which equals the time given for the great tribulation.

If you add 42 months by 30 days for each month according to the Jewish calender year you get 1260 days **

Note in Revelation John is told to measure the temple that is still standing. The temple fell in A.D 70 so the word of God is confirming that John wrote the Revelation of Jesus Christ prior to the fall of the temple that fell in 70 A.D

The Woman that fled to the desert for 1260 days are Messianic Jews fleeing Jerusalem when they fled to a place called Pella in the Transjordan


As you can see History confirms what St. John had prophesied in Scripture!

Now lets look at Language and 1st century Culture!

To remove Language, History, and Culture from biblical hermeneutics, you can easily fall victim to all types of wild interpretations.

Context is Key. Keep in mind St. John is addressing these letters to actual 1st century Churches.

Nero = 666

Most Bible scholars believe that 666 refers to the Roman Emperor Nero
. According to a passage in the Annals by Tacitus, Nero was responsible for some especially vicious attacks on Christians in Rome.** The Greek spelling, “Nerōn Kaisar,” transliterates into Hebrew as “נרון קסר” or “nrvn qsr”. Adding the corresponding values yields 666, as shown:**

Resh (ר)
Samech (ס)
Qof (ק)
Noon (נ)
Vav (ו)
Resh (ר)
Noon (נ)
TOTAL
200
60
100
50
6
200
50
666

**The Seven Headed Beast **

Revelation 17:9 "This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits.10They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for a little while. 11The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.

** Seven heads are seven hills …Rome is situated inside of seven hills. **

Seven Kings five have fallen.

#1 Julius Caesar 49- 44 B.C.

#2 Augustus Caeser 31 B.C- 14 A.D.

#3 Tiberius Caesar 14 A.D.- 37 A.D.

#4 Gaius Caesar 37 A.D.- 41 A.D Known as Caligula

#5 Claudius Caesar 41 A.D- 54 A.D. ** These first 5 Caesars conclude the 5 have fallen that St. John mentions.**

#6 Caesar Nero 54 A.D- 68 A.D…**.ONE IS… Caesar Nero or( Nerōn Kaisar, 666) is the ONE IS **

#7 Caesar Galba 68 A.D- 69 A.D….The other has not yet com ; but when he does come, he must remain for a little while

Note: Caesar Galba only reigned for a few months (a little while), not even a whole year just as John Prophesied


Timelines of Persecution

If the 6th king is indeed Nero, he would be the one that “now is” according to the prophecy, and this would date the writing before
68 A.D. when Nero supposedly committed suicide. Nero also persecuted Christians for 42 months Which is 3 ½ years or 1260 days on the jewish calender as is stated in the prophecy.
 
Cont…

** The time statements refer to soon events of cataclysmic Jewish importance. If it was written in 96 AD, there are no events soon from that time that could even remotely fit. If, however, it was before 70 AD, then the destruction of Jerusalem rises to the occasion as both Jewish and cataclysmic.**

Revelation 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it,** because the time is near.
**

(2)** According to the epistles to the churches, the Judaizers were persecuting the churches (Revelation 2:9; 3:9). This assigns the book to the pre-AD 70 era, for the Jewish persecution of the Church dissolved aound AD 70.**

The temple and the city were apparently still standing in Revelation chapter 11. John is sent to measure the city and temple, and Jerusalem is said to be under siege at the time of writing. It would not be possible for John to speak of these as still standing after 70 AD, for they were utterly destroyed at that date. And, if John is referring to some rebuilt temple in the far distant future, and he is writing in 96 AD, then his complete silence about the destruction of the temple and city in 70 AD is deafening–the destruction of Jerusalem is perhaps the greatest disaster in antiquity, and surely the greatest disaster in Israel’s history. To imagine St. John overlooking the apocalyptic destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple while he discusses both as if they were still standing, is impossible. Rather, St. John is prophesing their impending doom just two or three years before they were made utterly desolate.

Caesar Nero’s name in Hebrew gematria adds up to 666
. Since this was written about soon events, no other person can be found within this time scope whose name fits this requirement and description. For certain, none can be found in the soon future of 96 AD.

Many scholars believe Revelation is inextricably linked directly to the Olivet Discourse. Since the best commentaries on the Olivet Discourse demonstrate that it is speaking of the events leading up to AD 70, so must Revelation be speaking of these same events.

Historical Artifacts bearing witness to a pre-70 A.D. writing of the book of Revelation
.

The “Syriac version” of the New Testament, which dates back to the second century A.D., states that Revelation was written during the reign of Nero making a date of 64-68 A.D.

The “Muratorian Fragment,” dating back to 170-190 A.D., states that this work of John was written during the reign of Nero.

The “Aramaic Peshitta” version has a remark that places its date prior to 70 A.D. The title page of Revelation states this work of John was written right after the reign of Nero.

The “Monarchian Prologues,” that dates back to 250-350 A.D., claims that Paul also wrote to these seven churches (possibly Romans which was a “circular letter,” it went out to many addressees) following John’s Book, thus, placing the book of Revelation even before some of the other Pauline epistles.

A quote, arguably attributed to Papius (130 AD), states that John the Apostle was martyred before the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70


**Nero Caesar exiled John on the island of Patmos. Nero died in 68 AD, and according to Roman law, those banned by a prior Caesar would be released by the succeeding Caesar. Thus, John would have been released from Patmos around 68 AD. (John himself mentions he was at Patmos when he received the Revelation). **

**There are a lot of scholors that hold to a later date of the writting of Revelation because Ireneus wrote that John was on the Island of Patmos under Domitian who ruled from 81-96 A.D. **

Who did Ireneus really mean? Was it Domitianou (Nero) or Domitianikos (Domitian)

"It was written in Patmos about A.D.68, whither John had been banished by Domitius Nero, as stated in the title of the Syriac version of the Book; and with this concurs the express statement of Irenaeus (A.D.175), who says it happened in the reign of Domitianou, ie., Domitius (Nero). Sulpicius Severus, Orosius, &c., stupidly mistaking Domitianou for Domitianikos, supposed Irenaeus to refer to Domitian, A.D. 95, and most succeeding writers have fallen into the same blunder. The internal testimony is wholly in favor of the earlier date." (Concise Critical Comments on the Holy Bible, by Robert Young. Published by Pickering and Inglis, London and Glasgow, (no date), Page 179 of the “New Covenant” section. See also: Young’s Concise Critical Bible Commmentary, Baker Book House, March 1977, ISBN: 0-8010-9914-5, pg 178.)

Nero Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus (15 December 37 – 9 June 68) born Lucius Domitius Ahenobarbus, and commonly known as Nero, was Roman Emperor from 54 to 68.

**Titus Flavius Domitianus (24 October 51 – 18 September 96), commonly known as Domitian, was Roman Emperor from 81 to 96. **Domitian was the third and last emperor of the Flavian dynasty.

**The evidence may not be absolutely clear from writings outside of the bible, but I would argue, a lot of the early writings we do have, are pointing to John being on Patmos under Nero (Domitius), and not Titus (Domitian) **
 
How about the Greek?

“what will,” or “what is to” as in “what will" take place later,” or “what is to” take place hereafter" is the Greek word mello. The primary meaning of this word involves something about to happen.
This word appears 110 times in the NT and over and over again can be seen by context to mean something about to take place. It is therefore pointed out that Christ is not telling John to write about things that will take place hundreds or thousands of years in the future but of things that will take place in a short period of time.

One can safely conclude, it is most likely that St. John wrote Revelation prior to 70 A.D. in light of Scripture, Language, Culture and the Historical writings. Together these bear witness to a pre 70 A.D. dating

I hope some of this info helps you on your quest!

Peace and Love in Christ
 
How about the Greek?

“what will,” or “what is to” as in “what will" take place later,” or “what is to” take place hereafter" is the Greek word mello. The primary meaning of this word involves something about to happen.
This word appears 110 times in the NT and over and over again can be seen by context to mean something about to take place. It is therefore pointed out that Christ is not telling John to write about things that will take place hundreds or thousands of years in the future but of things that will take place in a short period of time.

One can safely conclude, it is most likely that St. John wrote Revelation prior to 70 A.D. in light of Scripture, Language, Culture and the Historical writings. Together these bear witness to a pre 70 A.D. dating

I hope some of this info helps you on your quest!

Peace and Love in Christ
Thank you for sharing that very interesting information.

Still, it appears to me that much of the Apocalypse has a character to it that places it outside any temporal history as such. For example,

[16] They shall no more hunger nor thirst, neither shall the sun fall on them, nor any heat. [17] For the Lamb, which is in the midst of the throne, shall rule them, and shall lead them to the fountains of the waters of life, and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

It would appear that the Apocalypse is also speaking of the end times as generally understood. I agree that it is very possible that, as the Scriptures often do, a “both/and” interpretation is possible. We can say that it predicts* both *the fall of Jerusalem and the Second Temple in A.D. 70, and (also) the end of the world. In fact, such an interpretation strengthens its prophetic credibility, exactly because it is vastly less likely to be accidental or coincidence, while also being much more difficult for any human being to simply copy or immitate sufficiently. It is as if the Scripture is saying, As surely as Jerusalem was sacked by the Romans in A.D 70, so certainly will the world end as herein described.

Another difficulty, though, for completely ascribing the fulfillment of the prophecies to the destruction of the Second Temple is this verse, which you cite and used,

[2] But the court, which is without the temple, cast out, and measure it not: because it is given unto the Gentiles, and the holy city they shall tread under foot two and forty months:

But what immediately follows is this,

[3] And*** I will give unto my two witnesses***, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred sixty days, clothed in sackcloth. [4] These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks, that stand before the Lord of the earth. [5] And if any man will hurt them, fire shall come out of their mouths, and shall devour their enemies. And if any man will hurt them, in this manner must he be slain.

Now I don’t know who these two witnesses are supposed to be in the sacking of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. Tradition generally believes that these two men will be Prophets, even perhaps Old Testament Prophets, who will evangelize the world or defend the Faith at the end of times.

My thinking is that these things all predicted the sacking of Jerusalem but deliberately included certain prophecies that were not fulfilled in that event or were only prefigured during that event, such that the Saints and Church Militant would know to expect these things to be fulfilled in a perhaps yet still grander way at the end of time. Certainly if the prophecies were solely confined or understood of Jerusalem, all the Church would boast of its fulfillment in the sacking of Jerusalem by the Romans, but this is only ever done in a mild manner, as it were. It was always understood that the things related in the Apocalypse tell of things still to come.
 
I’ve read the** Two witnesses** were a past event, summed up in the** Law and the Prophets**, and many other views.

With that being said, there are many views on “Who” “What” “Where” “When” and “How”

I believe, that too is a typology, a “Both, And”

Here are a Few on the Law and the Prophets
  1. The Old and New Testament
  2. Preachers instructed by the Law & the Prophets
  3. Jesus Christ & John the Baptist
  4. Several individuals identified by the Historicist interpretation
  5. Jewish and Gentile Christians
  6. Ananus & Joshua – High priests killed c.68AD by the Zealots
  7. Moses & Elijah
  8. Elijah & Enoch
  9. Christian witnesses
  10. Peter and James the brother of Christ
 
Excellent thread…amazing thread here folks!! 👍

I wasn’t aware we had such scholars…well…actually I was…🙂
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top