Regarding Anglicans: Have I got this right?

[DanteAlighieri]

My understanding about Anglicanorum Coetibus is that Anglicans who wish to be in communion with Rome may now join an “ordinariate” that reports to Rome and is a full member of the College of Bishops – even if he is not himself a bishop. Yes?

Further, the aim is to enable full communion with Rome while maintaining the liturgical heritage that the Anglican church has developed. Yes?

Also, the ordinariates will overlap the boundaries of Catholic and Anglican dioceses, such that a person can join this movement even if his/her rightful Anglican diocese is not doing so. Yes?

Ultimately, then, is the long-term goal to absorb into the Latin Rite large groups of Anglicans who want to to convert, or is it the goal to create an “Anglican Rite” that possesses valid sacraments and liturgy?

Peace,
Dante

 

[Spencerian]

Hi, Dante.

I think we’re all still studying the significance of this great opportunity for the Anglican community. To add what help I can offer, I think a generalization and background is in order.

Before the pontiff’s announcement, Anglicans could join the Church, but only in the usual conversion process (RCIA). The problem, as it was noted to me on an episode of CAL, was that roadblocks and red tape at the local dioceses made it harder for Anglicans to convert.

In short, the ordinariate acts as a special diocese, making it easier for all Anglicans to choose to come over. With this, RCIA processes are avoided in short (although I’m sure there is some catechism that’s needed) and the Anglicans can continue their worship under a new rite (in effect), based on a recently released constitution. They won’t have to “toss” their liturgy per se; there will a provision that gives their Mass an “Anglican flavor”, if I can call it that.

Yes, I do believe the ordinariate helps even when a nearby diocese or church isn’t available. I believe the process also helps with issues of marriage validity, but I am not certain.

Anglican priests and bishops as well can also come over and become Catholic, giving them valid Holy Orders. However, while provisions have been made in the past on a case-by-case basic for married Anglican priests who come into communion with Rome, it is not possible for these priests (or married Anglican bishops) to become Catholic bishops.

 

[Bluegoat]

My understanding about Anglicanorum Coetibus is that Anglicans who wish to be in communion with Rome may now join an “ordinariate” that reports to Rome and is a full member of the College of Bishops – even if he is not himself a bishop. Yes?

Further, the aim is to enable full communion with Rome while maintaining the liturgical heritage that the Anglican church has developed. Yes?

Also, the ordinariates will overlap the boundaries of Catholic and Anglican dioceses, such that a person can join this movement even if his/her rightful Anglican diocese is not doing so. Yes?

Ultimately, then, is the long-term goal to absorb into the Latin Rite large groups of Anglicans who want to to convert, or is it the goal to create an “Anglican Rite” that possesses valid sacraments and liturgy?

Peace,
Dante

It seems that the latter is their intention, in that the Anglican liturgical and spiritual tradition will be preserved within the Catholic Church.

 

[Justy90]

It seems that the latter is their intention, in that the Anglican liturgical and spiritual tradition will be preserved within the Catholic Church.

I think that tolerated is a more correct analogy and that in iteself will be temporary.

 

[MarkBrown]

My understanding about Anglicanorum Coetibus is that Anglicans who wish to be in communion with Rome may now join an “ordinariate” that reports to Rome and is a full member of the College of Bishops – even if he is not himself a bishop. Yes?

Further, the aim is to enable full communion with Rome while maintaining the liturgical heritage that the Anglican church has developed. Yes?

Also, the ordinariates will overlap the boundaries of Catholic and Anglican dioceses, such that a person can join this movement even if his/her rightful Anglican diocese is not doing so. Yes?

Ultimately, then, is the long-term goal to absorb into the Latin Rite large groups of Anglicans who want to to convert, or is it the goal to create an “Anglican Rite” that possesses valid sacraments and liturgy?

Peace,
Dante

Yes to all. In #3, outside of the TAC or ACA in the States, you will not see dioceses move to the Church. Parish possibly. Individual clergy and laity definitely. Also, if you are Catholic who left the Anglican Church prior to the A.C. you can join the A.U. Any Catholic, latin or otherwise, will be able to worship and recieve as the AU will be a part of the Church.

I have been told my Chancellors and Bishops (Catholic) it will be the 29th Rite. If I have remembered the number of Catholic Rites correctly.

There will be and are Anglicans trying to spread mis-information about this process, some may show up on this thread, if they have not already. I have not read all of the responses.
The Pope is going to steal your church, it is a bait and switch etc etc etc. I have either heard stuff like this from Anglican laity and clergy or read it on blogs.

Regardless of the Anglican naysayers, and the liberal Catholic ones who are hyperventing on the prospect of more traditionals showing up…this is a good thing the Holy Father
has done.

Fr. Mark
ACNA

 

[DanteAlighieri]

Yes to all. In #3, outside of the TAC or ACA in the States, you will not see dioceses move to the Church. Parish possibly. Individual clergy and laity definitely. Also, if you are Catholic who left the Anglican Church prior to the A.C. you can join the A.U. Any Catholic, latin or otherwise, will be able to worship and recieve as the AU will be a part of the Church.

I have been told my Chancellors and Bishops (Catholic) it will be the 29th Rite. If I have remembered the number of Catholic Rites correctly.

There will be and are Anglicans trying to spread mis-information about this process, some may show up on this thread, if they have not already. I have not read all of the responses.
The Pope is going to steal your church, it is a bait and switch etc etc etc. I have either heard stuff like this from Anglican laity and clergy or read it on blogs.

Regardless of the Anglican naysayers, and the liberal Catholic ones who are hyperventing on the prospect of more traditionals showing up…this is a good thing the Holy Father
has done.

Fr. Mark
ACNA

Thanks, Father.

So I guess we truly will end up with an Anglican Rite that, in most ways, will resemble in its liturgy that of the C of E or its spin-offs? And the average Latin Rite Catholic could walk in to an AU parish and partake of Mass (would it be a Mass?) just as if it were a Byzantine parish?

Peace,
Dante

 

[Justy90]

Yes to all. In #3, outside of the TAC or ACA in the States, you will not see dioceses move to the Church. Parish possibly. Individual clergy and laity definitely. Also, if you are Catholic who left the Anglican Church prior to the A.C. you can join the A.U. Any Catholic, latin or otherwise, will be able to worship and recieve as the AU will be a part of the Church.

I have been told my Chancellors and Bishops (Catholic) it will be the 29th Rite. If I have remembered the number of Catholic Rites correctly.

There will be and are Anglicans trying to spread mis-information about this process, some may show up on this thread, if they have not already. I have not read all of the responses.
The Pope is going to steal your church, it is a bait and switch etc etc etc. I have either heard stuff like this from Anglican laity and clergy or read it on blogs.

Regardless of the Anglican naysayers, and the liberal Catholic ones who are hyperventing on the prospect of more traditionals showing up…this is a good thing the Holy Father
has done.

Fr. Mark
ACNA

Oh really? So then the Catholic church is going to tolerate new Anglican converts who wish to keep their liturgy and music the way they have it now? I can just see Rome allowing Anglican rite Catholics to sing ‘A Mighty Fortress’ and other contemporary songs which rebuff the Catholic idea of faith + works. Right. If you call that misinformation I wonder just what other propaganda you are going to start spewing at your former church.

 

[TheosisM]

This reminds me of the Western Rite Orthodox, where there are “theologically corrected” versions of the Anglican and Catholic liturgies. I’m assuming this will be the case with this new Catholic structure.

 

[Justy90]

This reminds me of the Western Rite Orthodox, where there are “theologically corrected” versions of the Anglican and Catholic liturgies. I’m assuming this will be the case with this new Catholic structure.

precisely.

 

[TheosisM]

precisely.

Yeah, we can’t pretend that everything will be accepted “as-is”.

 

[Bluegoat]

Oh really? So then the Catholic church is going to tolerate new Anglican converts who wish to keep their liturgy and music the way they have it now? I can just see Rome allowing Anglican rite Catholics to sing ‘A Mighty Fortress’ and other contemporary songs which rebuff the Catholic idea of faith + works. Right. If you call that misinformation I wonder just what other propaganda you are going to start spewing at your former church.

Many Catholic churches use this hymn now, and it isn’t considered to be theologically suspect (well, a few blow-hards think it is, but it is allowed despite such people), so I doubt that it in particular would be an issue.

There is really very little in the Anglican liturgy or musical tradition that would be unacceptable to a Catholic understanding. Now whether there could be a move to “u-Anglicanize” such groups over time? Well, it doesn’t seem to be the intent and there are some structures built in to prevent that. It is something I might be concerned about if I were inclined to be interested, given how it has played out in some of the Eastern Catholic groups. But you seem to be taking a somewhat unjustifiably pessimistic, cynical, and uncharitable view.

 

[MarkBrown]

Thanks, Father.

So I guess we truly will end up with an Anglican Rite that, in most ways, will resemble in its liturgy that of the C of E or its spin-offs? And the average Latin Rite Catholic could walk in to an AU parish and partake of Mass (would it be a Mass?) just as if it were a Byzantine parish?

Peace,
Dante

Dante,

Go to www.atonementonline.com This is an Anglican Use parish, you will see the Anglican Use Mass. Very, Very Very similar to the Mass at my Anglican parish.
Latin Rite or any other Rite of the Church will be allowed to partake in an AU Mass.

Older Catholics who have attended Mass at my parish, comment that the Mass reminds them of the pre-Vatican II Mass. I take them at their word, as I was not yet born!

Peace,

Fr.Mark
ACNA

 

[MarkBrown]

Oh really? So then the Catholic church is going to tolerate new Anglican converts who wish to keep their liturgy and music the way they have it now? I can just see Rome allowing Anglican rite Catholics to sing ‘A Mighty Fortress’ and other contemporary songs which rebuff the Catholic idea of faith + works. Right. If you call that misinformation I wonder just what other propaganda you are going to start spewing at your former church.

Justy,

I attended a Mass in a Latin Rite Church. They sung music by Wesley, an Anglican, and I even heard a Baptist hymn. So yes, they will tolerate it, as they are doing it in some parishes now.

Those who go to Rome will not be the evangelics who would be singing such contemporary songs. They will be Catholic in their theology, so faith + works is not a problem, except to protestants.

It is very clear you are fearful of this event. Since you are a former Catholic, who do have much invested in trying to convience yourself you made the right choice. You are content to be in a Church that has jettisoned scripture, you do have a female priestess who goes by the title mother as your church’s website states. You are afraid, as many in the leadership of the ACNA and the Continuum of this offer. You have invest alot in your concept of a church. Who wants to be proven wrong? No one.

As you are clearly not going to revert to Rome, why are you trying to confuse people and pass on mis-information? Why should you care if someone wants to leave Anglicanism by the prompting of the Holy Spirit and move to Catholicism?

I have noticed Justy you speak only with emotion, never reason or fact. As an Anglican reason is a corner stone of your theology. You consisently raise strawmen, fish for red herrings on this forum. If someone does not agree with you, why they are spewing mis-information. I notice this is a tactic of yours when you have nothing worth saying. Just make a personal attack, with a bit of anger thrown in, and that is the total of your argument.

I am still an Anglican Priest in the ACNA, REC jurisdiction. In my section of the Diocese, I am the most Catholic in my theology and do not look at the Latin Catholic or even the Orthodox in an adversary manner. I work closely with a local Catholic parish, as the other Anglican parishes in my area have either jettisioned scripture or are very happy to be protestant in theology, as one calls himself…a Baptist in robes.

I would suggest you not interact with these types of threads. It just upsets you and causes you to say uncharitable things. You do not give facts, just emotions that reveal your inter struggles and does not add to the discussion of the thread.

Peace,

Fr.Mark
ACNA

 

[MarkBrown]

This reminds me of the Western Rite Orthodox, where there are “theologically corrected” versions of the Anglican and Catholic liturgies. I’m assuming this will be the case with this new Catholic structure.

Google Roman Missal 2012. Latin Rite is changing…no biggy either way.

Fr. Mark
ACNA

 

[The_Reginator]

Dante,

Go to www.atonementonline.com This is an Anglican Use parish, you will see the Anglican Use Mass. Very, Very Very similar to the Mass at my Anglican parish.
Latin Rite or any other Rite of the Church will be allowed to partake in an AU Mass.

Older Catholics who have attended Mass at my parish, comment that the Mass reminds them of the pre-Vatican II Mass. I take them at their word, as I was not yet born!

Peace,

Fr.Mark
ACNA

I converted to the Church as a former Anglican in my late 30s. I had already been attending a Catholic Church for over 15 years and was therefore exposed to the Novus Ordo Mass only.
My conversion took place in a parish that celebrated the Tridentine Mass exclusively.
I adapted quickly. I even told the parish priest that it reminded me of the Anglican communion service in the Book of Common Prayer. (The reverence in the BCP services was close to the Tridentine Mass I guess.)

 

[1ke]

Oh really? So then the Catholic church is going to tolerate new Anglican converts who wish to keep their liturgy and music the way they have it now?

Uh, hello, Anglican Use liturgy exists today and has been in place since 1980.

I can just see Rome allowing Anglican rite Catholics to sing ‘A Mighty Fortress’ and other contemporary songs

This hymn is in various hymnals in use in Catholic Churches today.

which rebuff the Catholic idea of faith + works.

I don’t read the lyrics that way at all.

Right. If you call that misinformation I wonder just what other propaganda you are going to start spewing at your former church.

You should do some research before you start calling anything written here “propaganda.”

I’m not sure why you are under the impression that A Mighty Fortress would be forbidden or that the Anglican Use liturgy would not be allowed as both exist today in Catholic liturgy.

 

[newyorkcatholic]

The Pope’s stated goal was to faciliate the entry of Anglican’s while preserving their spiritual/liturgical patrimony … but this is NOT the same thing as an Anglican Rite.

To establish an Anglican Rite would be totally contradictory to history and would probably be offensive to Eastern Christians (at least the Orthodox). The Rites have a much more ancient / apostolic origin and organic development, and be separate from the other rites in some way: Syriac, Byzantine, Maronite, Latin etc.

The Anglican traditions that will be preserved are, properly speaking, Latin Rite. It would be a form or use of this rite, just like the Ordinary and Extraordinary forms, the Anglican Use according to the BDW.

The most important part of this, IMHO, would not be developments since the Reformation (though not all of those would be contradictory to the faith and some, such as a dignified use of English language, would be very very welcome), but rather the potentian for a return of the Sarum Use. If it weren’t for the disastrous events of the Reformation, the Sarum Use would be the natural patrimony of all English-Speaking Catholics.

 

[Reuben_J]

Justy,

I attended a Mass in a Latin Rite Church. They sung music by Wesley, an Anglican, and I even heard a Baptist hymn. So yes, they will tolerate it, as they are doing it in some parishes now.

Those who go to Rome will not be the evangelics who would be singing such contemporary songs. They will be Catholic in their theology, so faith + works is not a problem, except to protestants.

It is very clear you are fearful of this event. Since you are a former Catholic, who do have much invested in trying to convience yourself you made the right choice. You are content to be in a Church that has jettisoned scripture, you do have a female priestess who goes by the title mother as your church’s website states. You are afraid, as many in the leadership of the ACNA and the Continuum of this offer. You have invest alot in your concept of a church. Who wants to be proven wrong? No one.

As you are clearly not going to revert to Rome, why are you trying to confuse people and pass on mis-information? Why should you care if someone wants to leave Anglicanism by the prompting of the Holy Spirit and move to Catholicism?

I have noticed Justy you speak only with emotion, never reason or fact. As an Anglican reason is a corner stone of your theology. You consisently raise strawmen, fish for red herrings on this forum. If someone does not agree with you, why they are spewing mis-information. I notice this is a tactic of yours when you have nothing worth saying. Just make a personal attack, with a bit of anger thrown in, and that is the total of your argument.

I am still an Anglican Priest in the ACNA, REC jurisdiction. In my section of the Diocese, I am the most Catholic in my theology and do not look at the Latin Catholic or even the Orthodox in an adversary manner. I work closely with a local Catholic parish, as the other Anglican parishes in my area have either jettisioned scripture or are very happy to be protestant in theology, as one calls himself…a Baptist in robes.

I would suggest you not interact with these types of threads. It just upsets you and causes you to say uncharitable things. You do not give facts, just emotions that reveal your inter struggles and does not add to the discussion of the thread.

Peace,

Fr.Mark
ACNA

I want to thank you Fr. for writing such a sensible and mature post. It is very encouraging to read contribution like this whereby objectivity, reasons and charity prevail.

May God continue to use and bless you.

 

[Justy90]

Justy,

I attended a Mass in a Latin Rite Church. They sung music by Wesley, an Anglican, and I even heard a Baptist hymn. So yes, they will tolerate it, as they are doing it in some parishes now.

Those who go to Rome will not be the evangelics who would be singing such contemporary songs. They will be Catholic in their theology, so faith + works is not a problem, except to protestants.

It is very clear you are fearful of this event. Since you are a former Catholic, who do have much invested in trying to convience yourself you made the right choice. You are content to be in a Church that has jettisoned scripture, you do have a female priestess who goes by the title mother as your church’s website states. You are afraid, as many in the leadership of the ACNA and the Continuum of this offer. You have invest alot in your concept of a church. Who wants to be proven wrong? No one.

As you are clearly not going to revert to Rome, why are you trying to confuse people and pass on mis-information? Why should you care if someone wants to leave Anglicanism by the prompting of the Holy Spirit and move to Catholicism?

I have noticed Justy you speak only with emotion, never reason or fact. As an Anglican reason is a corner stone of your theology. You consisently raise strawmen, fish for red herrings on this forum. If someone does not agree with you, why they are spewing mis-information. I notice this is a tactic of yours when you have nothing worth saying. Just make a personal attack, with a bit of anger thrown in, and that is the total of your argument.

I am still an Anglican Priest in the ACNA, REC jurisdiction. In my section of the Diocese, I am the most Catholic in my theology and do not look at the Latin Catholic or even the Orthodox in an adversary manner. I work closely with a local Catholic parish, as the other Anglican parishes in my area have either jettisioned scripture or are very happy to be protestant in theology, as one calls himself…a Baptist in robes.

I would suggest you not interact with these types of threads. It just upsets you and causes you to say uncharitable things. You do not give facts, just emotions that reveal your inter struggles and does not add to the discussion of the thread.

Peace,

Fr.Mark
ACNA

Fr. Mark: That is not the case and you know it sir. I have given facts many times in arguments questioning Catholicsm just to have them thwarted because they could not be answered objectively in the Catholic realm or they would be dismissed altogether siting Protestant bias or something equally ridiculous. I have been charitable just as many other Protestants have been just to be ultimately treated in a much lesser way. When we rightfully react to such treatment we get labeled hostile and argumentative just as you have labeled me sir. Go to Rome if you wish. That’s your perrogative. But, I am not nearly as optimistic as you are about many many Anglicans overloading the Tiber to get there, that’s all I’m saying. There is absolutely nothing special about the pope’s invitation to Rome. Anyone could go if they so chose, but just as with Anglicans; they ultimately will have to profess absolutely every single thing in Catholic theology including the notion that the pope is Christ on earth.

 

[Justy90]

Oh and by the way, I am NOT an evangelical Anglican.