G
GKC
Guest
True. But I’m not sure that I’m debating, usually.
GKC
GKC
- Status
G
GKC
Guest
Well… maybe.
But I do tend to be messy, around the house.
GKC
Anglicanus-Catholicus
But I do tend to be messy, around the house.
GKC
Anglicanus-Catholicus
J
josie_L
Guest
Forty-four fathers indeed, what a crock!!! I have never come across such numbers before, at most I found a handful of fathers who expressed the Rock as Peter’s confession. and in most cases they also profess that St. Peter is the rock (St. Augustine and Tertullian come to mind). The thing is, the correct exegetical understanding of Matthew 16: 18-21is that the Rock is referring to Peter (anything else extracted from this scripture is secondary to the literal/grammatical understanding of this passage), hence the reason for his name change. The only two other people that were referred to as “rock” were Abraham and God (Isaiah 51:1 and Deut. 32:4 respectively) which in and of itself is quite telling.
The significance of Simon’s name change and his being called “rock” is not lost on Matthew, a Jew writing to a Jewish audience, who is well aware of the importance attached to name changes in eastern culture. For example, Abraham’s (father of nations) name change from Abram (father) means a change in status or mission, just like Simon’s name changed to Peter, the rock, signifies a change in status or mission, i.e., to be the foundation (the source of unity) of Christ’s Church.
The parallels one sees in Abraham and Peter are not coincidental, for as Abraham was the patriarchal head of the first covenant, Peter would the patriarchal head of the new covenant, and as Abraham is the “father of nations” so too would St. Peter be"father of nations" as the Pope or rather papa/father of the Universal/Catholic Church.
Thus, Jesus is creating in Matthew 16:18-21a new covenant based upon the “rock”, Peter (whose name was changed as per his new status/mission), just like God created the first covenant upon Abraham (whose name was also changed) and who was referred to in scripture (and rabbinical teachings) as the “rock”.
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josie_L
Guest
I never denied that the Church in Rome was founded by both St. Peter and St. Paul, I stated that St. Peter was (the first) bishop of Rome as per history (and was bishop for 25 years). There is no disputing the fact that St. Peter was the first bishop of Rome, therefore the successors of St. Peter are the bishops of Rome.
p.s. Can you please start using primary sources to back up what you say, i.e., the church fathers (and/or scripture)?
J
josie_L
Guest
Actually, I think I’m wrong about Tertullian having said that the “rock” is also Peter’s confession, my bad, anyways, here’s a list of some Church fathers (as well as popes and councils) who have referred to St. Peter as “rock”:
" ‘Thou art Peter and upon this Rock I will build my Church’, Wherefore where Peter the Church is…"
Ambrose,Commentary on the Psalms,40:30 (AD 395),in DOP,184
“Number the priests even from that seat of Peter. And in that order of fathers see to whom succeeded: that is the rock which the proud gates of hades do not conquer.”
Augustine,Psalmus contr Partem Donati(A.D. 393),in GILES,182
“Peter upon which rock the Lord promised that he would build his church.”
Basil,In Isaias,2:66(A.D. 375),in SPP,55
"Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it, and to thee I will give the keys of the kingdom of heaven’? When Wilfrid spoken thus, the king said, ‘It is true, Colman, that these words were spoken to Peter by our Lord?’ He answered, ‘It is true O king!’ Then says he, ‘Can you show any such power given to your Columba?’ Colman answered, ‘None.’ Then added the king,"Do you both agree that these words were principally directed to Peter, and that the keys of heaven were given to him by our Lord?'They both answered,‘We do.’ "
Bede Venerable, AD 700, Ecclesiastical History,3:5(A.D. 700),in RCH,I:271
“Wherefore the most holy and blessed Leo, archbishop of the great and elder Rome, through us, and through this present most holy synod together with the thrice blessed and all-glorious Peter the Apostle, who is the rock and foundation of the Catholic Church, and the foundation of the orthodox faith…”
Council of Chalcedon,Session III (A.D. 451),in NPNF2,XIV:259-260
“A copy of the letter sent by the holy and Ecumenical Sixth Council to Agatho, the most blessed and most holy pope of Old Rome…Serious illnesses call for greater helps, as you know, most blessed (father); and therefore Christ our true God, who is the creator and governing power of all things, gave a wise physician, namely your God-honoured sanctity, to drive away by force the contagion of heretical pestilence by the remedies of orthodoxy, and to give the strength of health to the members of the church. Therefore to thee, as to the bishop of the first see of the Universal Church, we leave what must be done, since you willingly take for your standing ground the firm rock of the faith, as we know from having read your true confession in the letter sent by your fatherly beatitude to the most pious emperor: and we acknowledge that this letter was divinely written (perscriptas) as by the Chief of the Apostles, and through it we have cast out the heretical sect of many errors which had recently sprung up…”
Constantinople III Council to Pope Agatho,(A.D. 680),NPNF2,XIV:349
" ‘…thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church’ … It is on him that he builds the Church, and to him that he entrusts the sheep to feed. And although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single Chair, thus establishing by his own authority the source and hallmark of the (Church’s) oneness…If a man does not fast to this oneness of Peter, does he still imagine that he still holds the faith. If he deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, has he still confidence that he is in the Church?"
Cyprian, De Unitate Ecclesiae(Primacy text),4(A.D. 251),in NE,228-229
“He promises to found the church, assigning immovableness to it,as He is the Lord of strength, and over this he sets Peter as shepherd.”
Cyril of Alexandria,Commentary on Matthew (A.D. 428),in SPP,74
“Peter, that head of the Apostles, the first in the Church, the friend of Christ, who recieved revelation not from man but from the Father…this Peter, and when I say Peter, I mean that unbroken Rock, the unshaken foundation, the great Apostle, the first of the disciples, the first called, the first to obey”
Chrysostom John, De Eleemosyna,3:4(ante A.D. 407),in SEP,74
“[W]e have considered that it ought be announced that although all the Catholic Churches spread abroad through the world comprise one bridal chamber of Christ, nevertheless, the holy Roman Church has been placed at the forefront not by conciliar decisions of other churches, but has received the primacy by the evangelic voice of our Lord and Savior, who says: “You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it…”…The first see, therefore, is that of Peter the Apostle, that of the Roman Church, which has neither the stain nor blemish nor anything like it”
Damasus Pope, Decree of Damasus,3(A.D. 382), in JUR,I:406
to be continued. . .
J
josie_L
Guest
“[T]he first of the apostles, the solid rock on which the Church was built.”
Epiphanius, In Ancorato,9:6 (A.D. 374),in SPP,in 57
“Simon, My follower, I have made you the foundation of the Holy Church. I betimes called you Peter(Kepha), because you will support all its buildings. You are the inspector of those who will build on earth a Church for me…I have given you the keys of my kingdom. Behold, have given you authority over all my treasures.”
Ephraim, Homily 4:1,(A.D. 373),JUR,I:11
"And Peter,on whom the Church of Christ is built, ‘against which the gates of hell shall not prevail’ "
Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History,6:25 (A.D. 325),in NPNF2,I:273
"Who could be ignorant of the fact that the holy church is consolidated in the solidity of the prince of the Apostles, whose firmness of character extended to his name so that he should be called Peter after the ‘rock’, when the voice of the Truth says, ‘I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven’. To him again is said “When after a little while thou hast come back to me, it is for thee to be the support of thy brethren.”
Gregory the Great Pope,Epistle 40(A.D. 604),in SPP,66
“Seest thou that of the disciples of Christ, all of whom were exalted and deserving of choice, one is called rock, and is entrusted with the foundations of the church.”
Gregory of Nazianzen,Oration 32:18(A.D. 380),in SPP,56
“The memory of Peter, who is the head of the apostles…he is the firm and most solid rock, on which the savior built his Church.”
Gregory of Nyssa,Panegyric on St. Stephen,3(ante A.D. 394),in SPP,56
“**lessed Simon, who after his confession of the mystery was set to be the foundation-stone of the Church, and received the keys of the kingdom…”
Hilary de Poiters,On the Trinity,6:20(A.D. 359),in NPNF2,IX:105
“By this Spirit Peter spake that blessed word, ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ By this Spirit the rock of the Church was stablished.”
Hippolytus,Discourse on the Holy Theophany,9(ante A.D. 235),ANF,V:237
“As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is with the chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the church is built!”
Jerome,To Pope Damasus,Epistle 15(A.D. 375),in NPNF2,VI:18
“**lessed Peter preserving in the strength of the Rock, which he has received, has not abandoned the helm of the Church, which he under took…And so if anything is rightly done and rightly decreed by us, if anything is won from the mercy of God by our daily supplications,it is of his work and merits whos power lives and whose authority prevails in his See…to him whom they know to be not only the patron ofthis See, but also primate of all bishops. When therefore…beleive that he is speaking whose representative we are:…”
Leo the Great(Pope),Sermon 3:3-4(A.D. 442),in NPNF2,XII:117
“And Peter, on whom the Church of Christ is built, against which the gates of hell shall not prevail…”
Origen,Commentary on John,5:3(c.A.D. 232),in ANF,X:347
"This Peter on whom Christ freely bestowed a sharing in his name. For just as Christ is the rock, as the Apostle Paul taught, so through Christ Peter is made rock, when the Lord says to him: “Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church…”’
Maximus of Turin,Homily 63(A.D. 408),in SPP,61-62
“There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the Apostles, pillar of faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to to-day and forever, lives and judges in his successors. The holy and most blessed Pope Celestine,according to due order,is his successor and holds his place…”
Philip,Council of Ephesus,Session III (A.D. 431),in NPNF,XIV:223
“…the most firm rock, who(Peter) from the principal Rock recieved a share of his virtue and his name”
Prosper of Aquitaine,The Call of All Nations,2:28(A.D. 426),in SPP,71
"Peter, who is called ‘the rock on which the church should be built,’ who also obtained ‘the keys of the kingdom of heaven…’ "
Tertullian,On the Prescription Against the Heretics,22(c.A.D. 200),in ANF,III:253****
Epiphanius, In Ancorato,9:6 (A.D. 374),in SPP,in 57
“Simon, My follower, I have made you the foundation of the Holy Church. I betimes called you Peter(Kepha), because you will support all its buildings. You are the inspector of those who will build on earth a Church for me…I have given you the keys of my kingdom. Behold, have given you authority over all my treasures.”
Ephraim, Homily 4:1,(A.D. 373),JUR,I:11
"And Peter,on whom the Church of Christ is built, ‘against which the gates of hell shall not prevail’ "
Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History,6:25 (A.D. 325),in NPNF2,I:273
"Who could be ignorant of the fact that the holy church is consolidated in the solidity of the prince of the Apostles, whose firmness of character extended to his name so that he should be called Peter after the ‘rock’, when the voice of the Truth says, ‘I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven’. To him again is said “When after a little while thou hast come back to me, it is for thee to be the support of thy brethren.”
Gregory the Great Pope,Epistle 40(A.D. 604),in SPP,66
“Seest thou that of the disciples of Christ, all of whom were exalted and deserving of choice, one is called rock, and is entrusted with the foundations of the church.”
Gregory of Nazianzen,Oration 32:18(A.D. 380),in SPP,56
“The memory of Peter, who is the head of the apostles…he is the firm and most solid rock, on which the savior built his Church.”
Gregory of Nyssa,Panegyric on St. Stephen,3(ante A.D. 394),in SPP,56
“**lessed Simon, who after his confession of the mystery was set to be the foundation-stone of the Church, and received the keys of the kingdom…”
Hilary de Poiters,On the Trinity,6:20(A.D. 359),in NPNF2,IX:105
“By this Spirit Peter spake that blessed word, ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ By this Spirit the rock of the Church was stablished.”
Hippolytus,Discourse on the Holy Theophany,9(ante A.D. 235),ANF,V:237
“As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is with the chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the church is built!”
Jerome,To Pope Damasus,Epistle 15(A.D. 375),in NPNF2,VI:18
“**lessed Peter preserving in the strength of the Rock, which he has received, has not abandoned the helm of the Church, which he under took…And so if anything is rightly done and rightly decreed by us, if anything is won from the mercy of God by our daily supplications,it is of his work and merits whos power lives and whose authority prevails in his See…to him whom they know to be not only the patron ofthis See, but also primate of all bishops. When therefore…beleive that he is speaking whose representative we are:…”
Leo the Great(Pope),Sermon 3:3-4(A.D. 442),in NPNF2,XII:117
“And Peter, on whom the Church of Christ is built, against which the gates of hell shall not prevail…”
Origen,Commentary on John,5:3(c.A.D. 232),in ANF,X:347
"This Peter on whom Christ freely bestowed a sharing in his name. For just as Christ is the rock, as the Apostle Paul taught, so through Christ Peter is made rock, when the Lord says to him: “Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my church…”’
Maximus of Turin,Homily 63(A.D. 408),in SPP,61-62
“There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the Apostles, pillar of faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to to-day and forever, lives and judges in his successors. The holy and most blessed Pope Celestine,according to due order,is his successor and holds his place…”
Philip,Council of Ephesus,Session III (A.D. 431),in NPNF,XIV:223
“…the most firm rock, who(Peter) from the principal Rock recieved a share of his virtue and his name”
Prosper of Aquitaine,The Call of All Nations,2:28(A.D. 426),in SPP,71
"Peter, who is called ‘the rock on which the church should be built,’ who also obtained ‘the keys of the kingdom of heaven…’ "
Tertullian,On the Prescription Against the Heretics,22(c.A.D. 200),in ANF,III:253****
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josie_L
Guest
The part which I emboldened should read “the only other references to “rock” in the Bible is with respect to Abraham and God . . .”
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gurneyhalleck1
Guest
Hey Lucky,
Well first of all, it means so much to me that you consider me a friend
and second of all, “neo-Anglicans?” LOL…Is GKC my “neo Anglican collegue?” I’m not sure to whom you are referring? Or Father Mark? Who are you talking about?
And didn’t I make it clear that the HOLY SPIRIT guides the pope? What part of this is elluding you? The Vicar of Christ is the Holy Father. The Holy Spirit guides him. Simple stuff. So yes the Holy Spirit IS in charge since God works through the pope. Just like a priest is in persona christi and is Christ for us at Mass, the Holy Spirit works through individuals. I fail to see why the holy spirit’s guidance and Christ’s lordship are somehow lessened or threatened by God using the pope to exact His will through the said pope? It’s not my imagination as you say, but the truth. And yes, I’m fully aware that the Holy Spirit guided the seven councils but thanks for reminding me! Thanks for calling me friend again!
Well first of all, it means so much to me that you consider me a friend
and second of all, “neo-Anglicans?” LOL…Is GKC my “neo Anglican collegue?” I’m not sure to whom you are referring? Or Father Mark? Who are you talking about?And didn’t I make it clear that the HOLY SPIRIT guides the pope? What part of this is elluding you? The Vicar of Christ is the Holy Father. The Holy Spirit guides him. Simple stuff. So yes the Holy Spirit IS in charge since God works through the pope. Just like a priest is in persona christi and is Christ for us at Mass, the Holy Spirit works through individuals. I fail to see why the holy spirit’s guidance and Christ’s lordship are somehow lessened or threatened by God using the pope to exact His will through the said pope? It’s not my imagination as you say, but the truth. And yes, I’m fully aware that the Holy Spirit guided the seven councils but thanks for reminding me! Thanks for calling me friend again!
G
gurneyhalleck1
Guest
Great quotes, Josie. To a Christian with an open mind who has read something other than obscure Anglican anti-Catholic writings from the 19th century, these might be compelling and convincing, but there are certain folks in here who choose to ignore the wealth of quotations proving without a doubt that the pope had universal jurisdiction, was the final authority in all mattes of faith and morals, and the Rock established on Peter by Christ.
We keep hearing the tired argument that the rock was the confession, the whole church’s bishops holding the keys and that Peter was not set apart as leader. To that there is a great quote from Tertullian:
“[T]he Lord said to Peter, ‘On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. . . . Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys, not to the Church” (Modesty 21:9–10 [A.D. 220]).
We keep hearing the tired argument that the rock was the confession, the whole church’s bishops holding the keys and that Peter was not set apart as leader. To that there is a great quote from Tertullian:
“[T]he Lord said to Peter, ‘On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven’ [Matt. 16:18–19]. . . . Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys, not to the Church” (Modesty 21:9–10 [A.D. 220]).
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KristeneMarie
Guest
To Josie (and I’m sorry if I’m stepping on any toes here):
Other than the fact that none of your current Bibles carry them what do you have against the Deuterocanon? IMHO, they shed a certain light on the Gospels that one might not fully realize with only the 66 books found in protestant Bibles. That being said, as you love the KJV so much, why don’t you look at the KJV translations of the Deuterocanon which you can google for and read online and THEN decide, after having at least read them, if you don’t want to purchase a Bible that includes them (as I said, it can STILL be KJV, the original 1611 version had the books and there are still people who publish these “fuller” versions)? As others have stated, reading them will help in your understanding of your own church’s liturgy as well as being a seemingly “catholic” (as opposed to protestant) thing to do…
Again, I’m not trying to call you out or anything, but you have nothing to lose and perhaps maybe at least a little to gain by reading the Deuterocanonical books.
Blessings to all,
Kristene
Other than the fact that none of your current Bibles carry them what do you have against the Deuterocanon? IMHO, they shed a certain light on the Gospels that one might not fully realize with only the 66 books found in protestant Bibles. That being said, as you love the KJV so much, why don’t you look at the KJV translations of the Deuterocanon which you can google for and read online and THEN decide, after having at least read them, if you don’t want to purchase a Bible that includes them (as I said, it can STILL be KJV, the original 1611 version had the books and there are still people who publish these “fuller” versions)? As others have stated, reading them will help in your understanding of your own church’s liturgy as well as being a seemingly “catholic” (as opposed to protestant) thing to do…
Again, I’m not trying to call you out or anything, but you have nothing to lose and perhaps maybe at least a little to gain by reading the Deuterocanonical books.
Blessings to all,
Kristene
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luckyfredsdad
Guest
. To a Christian with an open mind who has read something other than obscure Anglican anti-Catholic writings from the 19th century,[/qu**ote]
**You are getting desperate brother and what is more you are letting it show!
**The Liturgy of S.James, at the point where where the consecration of the Gifts has just been consumated by the Epiklesis, the priest prays that the Body and Blood of Our Lord, '*may be to those who *communicate of them, for remission of sins and life everlasting,… for the strengthening of Thy , Holy Catholic Church, which Thou didst found on the Rock of the Faith, that the gates of Hades should not ****prevail against it." (Lit.S.James. Orthodox Liturgy.)
**In the Roman Missal for the Vigil of S.Peter and S.Paul , mine is a very old one, but it runs, " *Grant we beseech Thee, Almighty God, that we whom thou hast established on the Rock of the Apostolic Confession may be shaken by no disturbance."*hese might be compelling and convincing, but there are certain folks in here who choose to ignore the wealth of quotations proving without a doubt that the pope had universal jurisdiction, was the final authority in all mattes of faith and morals, and the Rock established on Peter by Christ.
**And there are some who live on dreams and exageration!
**
–Irenaeus
You are building mountains out of mole hills. Rome was an apostolic see, is anyone doubting this? Has this fact been queried? Originally,
apostolic succession was not only the transmitting of orders, but of Apostolic Faith. If any of the faithful wondered or queried a matter of faith, then the suggestion was to check at the major sees to see what they taught. That is all.
**
The [Roman,] Belgian canonist in the 17th, Cent, Van Espen says,
“The Bishops receive by succession the very authority of the apostles, so that whatever the apostles had of episcopal power- that is of power
concerned with the Government of the Church- has been transferred
by them in to the bishops.” [Jus Eccl,Univ.I,xvi. i.7.]
**
**** [in the papacy]?!
Just where pray, does this quote,[in the papacy] originate?
Now to revert to S.Cyprian.
“The episcopate is one, an [undivided ] share of which is held by the Bishops in such wise as that they are, each of them, joint tenants of the whole” [De Unit, Eccl,5 Opp,i 214.].
This is the theme of S.Cyprians teaching.
My statements stand friend, I have no qualms or doubts about their correctness.
**That the Lord said many things to Peter, I have no doubts at all!
What I, or we, want to know is, how did it get put on the shoulders of the Bishop of Rome? I must say that for all your twisting and turning, bobbing and weaving, there’s never been a satisfactory answer given. You ignore fully, the tenets of your own Communion that scripture should be seen and interpreted through the writings of the Ancient fathers. (Trent 1564).**
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luckyfredsdad
Guest
Are you saying that the very eminent Roman Catholic scholar
Jean de Launoy was lying?
.
**Is it? Are you suggesting that Peter is in anyway on equal terms withy God or the Faith?
**
If we look at O/T, referrence to the term Rock, always signifies God himself, when it is used in a similar way to that it is used in the Matt 16 text, as a foundation to build.
1 Neither is there any Rock like our God. !,Sam.2.]
2 The Lord is my Rock, 2 Sam
There are six more references some in Psalms and Isaiah.
You should look at them. Put the extra books to use!
J
josie_L
Guest
Kristine, I think you got me confused with LuckyFredsdad, I have all 73 books in my Bible.
God bless.
K
KristeneMarie
Guest
sorry for the confusion and God bless you too
J
josie_L
Guest
Well if he’s not lying (and your source is correct) than please catalogue these 44 church fathers that you say believed the rock referred to Peter’s confession? It should be easy enough considering the preponderance of fathers in your favor.
p.s. How was Jean de Launoy a very eminent Roman Catholic scholar when he was a Jansenist (a theology condemned from within the Church)?
By the way, at the council of Chalcedon with more than 600 bishops present St. Peter was referred to as the “rock” (look at the quotes I cited) and foundation of the Church.
.
No, I’m saying that Simon had his name changed to “rock” by JESUS (you can ignore this fact all you want) to relay the fact he is the “rock” upon which the Church would be built. That “rock” called Peter however is not to be separated from the “ROCK”, Jesus, hence the reason the “gates of Hell shall not prevail”, i.e., the “rock” Peter was grafted into the “ROCK”, Jesus.
As I stated, Abraham was also referred to as “rock” so please look at Isaiah 51: 1, and in addition to scriptural references, rabbinical teachings also confirmed this. Here is a quote from “Upon this Rock” by Stephen Ray (page 41) delineating this fact:
"New Testament scholar William Barclay gives tremendous praise. It is a metaphor which is by no means strange or unusual to Jewish thought. The Rabbis applied the word rock to Abraham. They had a saying: 'When the Holy One saw Abraham who was going to arise, he said, “Lo, I have discovered a rock to found the world upon.” Therefore he called Abraham rock as it said (in scripture): “Look unto the rock whence ye are hewn.”
Furthermore, I never denied that God was “rock” so you giving me more scriptural quotes makes no sense.
p.s. Grammatically speaking when Matthew writes “upon this rock” the word “this” refers to the nearest noun preceding it which is Peter, not his confession of faith.
davidmacd.com/catholic/pope.htm
[/quote]
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luckyfredsdad
Guest
**Dear Lady, I have no intention of searching out 40 names, though both Denny and Little dale, would, I think, make it easier. That’s your job, I gave you the source of my information, do withit what you will! I’ll tell you what though, Maldonatus, another Roman Scholar and Jesuit, wrote," There are amongst ancient authors some who interpret ,‘on t this rock,’ that is, ‘on this faith,’ or,‘on this confession of faith in which thou hast called Me,the Son of the Living God,’ as Hilary, and Gregory Nyssen and Chrysostom and Cyril of Alexandria. S.Augustine, going still further away…,interprets ,‘on this rock’ that is, ‘on myself Christ , because Christ was the Rock’. But Origen, ‘on this rock , that is to say , on all men who have the same faith,’. In.Ch.OT. Sal. ]Well if he’s not lying (and your source is correct) than please catalogue these 44 church fathers that you say believed the rock referred to Peter’s confession? It should be easy enough considering the preponderance of fathers in your favor.
**
**Canadian cousin, In my dictionary, ‘Esteemed,’ means well thought of , held in high estimation. As for Jansenism, being condemned, that;s your business, he was a Roman Catholic, you have got to realise that all of you are onsidered at least questionable on your faith, otherwise we wouldn’t be disussing matters here?
As for the Church? It was the Roman Catholic Church that condemned him at that time.
**
There were the papal legates there.After the less than encouraging reception they and Pope Leo had received, they had to say something! It meant nothing and was ignored by the 600 delegates, or most of them and the Council gave them and Leo, who they represented a raspberry of great proportions.
**You might believe what you will. The Church fathers, for the most part thought differently!As a catholic I am honour bound to follow their thinking through the Councils.As for name changing? Didn’t John and his brother have theirs changed as well!
How-and-ever, the consensus amongst the Fathers was that it was the Catholic Faith , Peter’s faith, not Peter!
**
**This neither adds or detracts from what I said to you, if,however you read the O/T, you will find many quotes to support the claim I made.
**
**Cousin! make up your mind, Peter as a Rock, or God or Christ and His faith? Or even all or each of them, but it destroys your Petrine claim.
**
**You’r playing games. Further more, your quoting Chalcedon doesn’t help your case. That Council was some 400yrs after the event,[give or take a few] it has to be within a reasonable time limit for quotes to be accepted. I have to point out, that neither your good self, nor any of your acolytes, have yet produced any scripture or tradition linking Peter with the Papacy!
All the best for the new year!
**
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Padrej
Guest
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Justy90
Guest
**You’r playing games. Further more, your quoting Chalcedon doesn’t help your case. That Council was some 400yrs after the event,[give or take a few] it has to be within a reasonable time limit for quotes to be accepted. I have to point out, that neither your good self, nor any of your acolytes, have yet produced any scripture or tradition linking Peter with the Papacy!
All the best for the new year!
** AMEN!
All the best for the new year!
** AMEN!
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FrJohnB
Guest
B
bridgeforsale
Guest
You’re probably right. Nevertheless, I think the Catholics will continue to exploit liberalization within the Anglican church (the Anglicans of course a part of the liberal tradition of England, home to the enlightenment and many of its greatest thinkers, and most of the ideas that form the basis of our own democracy).
The problem is the more intelligent you tend to be the more socially liberal you’re inclined to be. Obviously there’s exceptions to this rule, but generally speaking there is a strong correlation between education and tolerance. These same very smart people, particularly in England, have little inclination toward religion. In other words the natural “customers” of the Anglican Church (an enlightened English citizenry) aren’t inclined to believe things like a god-man rose from the dead 2,000 years ago, or an invisible spirit spoke to some guy in the desert a couple thousand years before that.
I’m not sure what, if anything, will attract these individuals back into church. Those who remain religious, in the UK, are mostly from the working classes, typically lack a university education, and tend to be overwhelmingly socially consvervative. Once again, there’s exceptions to this; I’m only speaking of general trends. These social conservatives have good reasons to gravitate toward the RCC. First, there’s not much of a difference in terms of liturgy. I’ve been to an Episcoplian church & a Catholic church enough times to know the differences are subtle (and it’s easy to see how an Anglican would be very comfortable worshiping in a Catholic church). Second, and most obviously, the RCC remains rabidly conservative (they still believe a wafer of bread turns to human flesh as it travels down the esophagus).
Let’s face, if the current momentum continues, western Europe will be an atheist continent within the next two or three decades (if it even takes that long). Even the typical strongholds of theism (like Italy) are experiencing decline in religious participation. I suspect we’re also beginning to see this same decline in the United States (although it will take much longer here). It’s not impossible to think religion could collapse in America in one generation (but I tend to doubt that will happen, given that so many people are making millions from it and there’s so many large vested religious interests here).
However, don’t forget about other types of protestants (which could also probably move into a place like England and attract bitter Anglicans as easy as feeding candy to a baby). Different denominations will increasingly be fighting over a shrinking pie here in the western world, and will have to turn their sights to the third world (where virtual universal illiteracy makes it a fertile ground for theism of all sorts, from Pentecostals whipping about in a frenzy speaking in tongues, to the Islamist psychopaths).
I say with a smile … ahhh religion
I just wish our mythology were cooler, you know, not invented by desert nomads. What ever happened to good old Zeus or Thor
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