Regarding Mary - Why do some go overboard?

[Melchior]

I tread carefully with this post. And I ask it with the utmost respect.

I have noticed among Catholics, in my life and on this board, a tendency by some to elevate Mary beyond what I understand to be official Catholic teaching. I have seen various post that say things like “I am glad Jesus and Mary are in control of such and such…” Or “I will as the Virgin to do such and such for you…”

I understand that Mary is highly honored and revered in many ways for obvious reasons. I also understand, based on the communion of saints, asking her to pray for us. What I don’t understand is what appears to be many Catholics treating her as a member of the Trinity by assuming that she has attributes of Diety. As I understand it God can bring our prayers to her and she can intercede with God on our behalf based on her place of highest human honor and being unique among all who are created.

So my question is for those of you Catholics who also find this troubling. Why do you think so many do this? And do you think this crosses the line from honor and respect to idolatry and or heresy? I can only conclude that those who do this fall in to what has been called the “Marian Cult”. I have even heard it said by someone that he believes Mary is the Holy Spirit. Such a statement is clearly blasphemy and I know no on here would say this. But it does make one wonder about the marian apparitions. Sometimes I think Mary herself would weep and rebuke some of the people who do such her name. Because the things I am talking about clearly take the attention off her Son. Something I am sure she would not abide.

Mel

 

[Della]

May I ask what of Marian writings you have read? Have you read “The Glories of Mary” by St. Alphonsus de Ligouri or “True Devotion to Mary” by St. Louis Marie de Montfort or the writings of St. Maximilian Kolbe? I ask because many of the things you have heard may have come from them, but may have been overstated or misstated or stated too simply.

 

[Chris_Burgwald]

Melchior:

So my question is for those of you Catholics who also find this troubling. Why do you think so many do this? And do you think this crosses the line from honor and respect to idolatry and or heresy?

In most cases, I don’t think those who use the language which troubles you mean what you hear; in other words, their language of piety has significantly different nuances than yours, and hence things which seem almost blasphemous to you are not meant as such by them.

That being said, I do think that some Catholics (but not many) see Mary as the one who calms the indignation of her Son against us, and I have major problems with that perspective, in that it completely misunderstands who Jesus is.

 

[brojon]

dear melchoir,

i agree with your points of view regarding our bleseed mother, she is not a person in the holy trinity for it is only god the father the son and the holy spirit existed in the holy trinity, but we cannot judge those people who think that mary is one of the holy trinity, as for me i believe that mary as the handmaid of the lord wouldnt like to be much of higher to her GOD, i hope that many of the catholics would know the role of mary in the salvation of mankind. Just a reminder let us not forget what our blessed mother had done for us its the most important thing.

 

[Funky_Cedars]

Chris Burgwald:

I do think that some Catholics (but not many) see Mary as the one who calms the indignation of her Son against us, and I have major problems with that perspective, in that it completely misunderstands who Jesus is.

agreed, its the wrath of her husband, not her son, that she protects us from. and she’d be the first to say that anything she ‘does’ is actually her doing the will of God, if He didn’t want it to happen, she couldn’t force it to occur. nor would she want to, she is fully integrated into God’s will; she only wants what He wants.
many times we Catholics will talk as if she and He are one because she has become so transparent in the totality of her submission to Him that when we look at her we see Him.
and we do look at her alot cuz she’s our mom. in the completeness of Daddy’s understanding of our needs, He saw that we would need a spiritual mom, so He decided that the woman who brought Jesus to us would also be an excellent means for us to come to Him.
also, the ‘cult’ of mary does not imply the belief that she is anything other than a creature of God, any claim that she is another person of, or one of the current persons of the Trinity should be rebuked in love for the claimant is insulting the Most High. and also mary, of whom the Most High is quite fond.

 

[steve_b]

Melchior:

I tread carefully with this post. And I ask it with the utmost respect.

Much appreciated
Melchoir:

I have noticed among Catholics, in my life and on this board, a tendency by some to elevate Mary beyond what I understand to be official Catholic teaching. …[snip]

I understand that Mary is highly honored and revered in many ways for obvious reasons. I also understand, based on the communion of saints, asking her to pray for us. What I don’t understand is what appears to be many Catholics treating her as a member of the Trinity by assuming that she has attributes of Diety.

As I understand it God can bring our prayers to her and she can intercede with God on our behalf based on her place of highest human honor and being unique among all who are created.

You err in your understanding. God doesn’t bring our prayers to her, she brings our prayers to God. A huge difference, agreed? And scripture says, the prayers(petitions) of the just are powerful. That’s why we ask Mary to bring our prayers to God.
Melchoir:

Why do you think so many do this? And do you think this crosses the line from honor and respect to idolatry and or heresy?

The problem is, you begin with an error in understanding as we saw above. Then you developed a conclusion based on that error. You then accuse, based on your erronious conclusion. Do you see how error begets error? I would suggest that, THIS is how lines get crossed most frequently. Error begetting error
Melchoir:

I can only conclude that those who do this fall in to what has been called the “Marian Cult”. I have even heard it said by someone that he believes Mary is the Holy Spirit.

I’ve never heard a Catholic say anything so rediculous. Could it happen? I suppose so. I just haven’t heard of it. Besides, the Church is very clear on Marian devotions. All one has to do is familiarize themselves on what the Church teaches. It’s all clearly documented.
Melchoir:

Such a statement is clearly blasphemy and I know no on here would say this. But it does make one wonder about the marian apparitions.

You introduce too many tangents into one post. But back to the main topic. You began with a misunderstanding. Has the misunderstanding been corrected?
Melchoir:

Sometimes I think Mary herself would weep and rebuke some of the people who do such her name. Because the things I am talking about clearly take the attention off her Son. Something I am sure she would not abide.
Mel

With abuses, I completely agree.

But I also think all of heaven weeps over all those who won’t study and learn from the pillar and foundation of truth…The Church

 

[Melchior]

Steve,

I think you missunderstand me. And as a result are drawing false conclusions. What I meant was that people pray to Mary to ask her to pray for us. That is how many a knowledgable Catholic have explained it. But since Mary is not omniscient, it requires an act of God for Mary to hear our prayers. Not that God brings our prayers to Mary for her to answer. But that God allows mary to hear and to intercede for us.

Also, am I to understand that Mary must carry our prayers to God or can we also go directly to God? If I pray to the Father I am certain God does not require me to go through Mary. But I must go through Jesus.

I hope I clarified what I meant and I appreocate your further clarification.

Mel

 

[Melchior]

steve b:

Much appreciated

You err in your understanding. God doesn’t bring our prayers to her, she brings our prayers to God. A huge difference, agreed? And scripture says, the prayers(petitions) of the just are powerful. That’s why we ask Mary to bring our prayers to God.

The problem is, you begin with an error in understanding as we saw above. Then you developed a conclusion based on that error. You then accuse, based on your erronious conclusion. Do you see how error begets error? I would suggest that, THIS is how lines get crossed most frequently. Error begetting error

I’ve never heard a Catholic say anything so rediculous. Could it happen? I suppose so. I just haven’t heard of it. Besides, the Church is very clear on Marian devotions. All one has to do is familiarize themselves on what the Church teaches. It’s all clearly documented.

You introduce too many tangents into one post. But back to the main topic. You began with a misunderstanding. Has the misunderstanding been corrected?

With abuses, I completely agree.

But I also think all of heaven weeps over all those who won’t study and learn from the pillar and foundation of truth…The Church

Steve,

I think you read to much accusation into my post. I am talking about people who use language that seems to indicate that Mary is God. Even if they don’ believe it their actions betray them. If you say Mary is behind certain world events, I say you are attributing qualities of diety to her.

Perhaps I did go off a little with the Marian Apparitions thing. But in my experience, those who hang on every word of apparitions, even if not sanctioned by the church have an unhealthy imbalance in their faith ans seem to be afraid of God and thus Mary becomes the foxus of their faith. When that happens Mary becomes their god. This is not something I thing the majority of Catholics do. But enough do this to make it an issue. That is why I ask my question. I was not looking for a debate or a defense. My entire point was that these people seem out of step with Catholic teaching.

I was not criticizing those who pray the Rosary. And I did not start with error - you just misread me and assumed my premise was wrong, perhaps because I am not Catholic.

Blessings,

Mel

 

[Poisson]

Melchior:

I understand that Mary is highly honored and revered in many ways for obvious reasons. I also understand, based on the communion of saints, asking her to pray for us. What I don’t understand is what appears to be many Catholics treating her as a member of the Trinity by assuming that she has attributes of Diety. As I understand it God can bring our prayers to her and she can intercede with God on our behalf based on her place of highest human honor and being unique among all who are created.

So my question is for those of you Catholics who also find this troubling. Why do you think so many do this? And do you think this crosses the line from honor and respect to idolatry and or heresy?

Yes I think it happens that some cross the ling and yes I do find it troubling as if feed into the false perceptions that some protestants have about the Catholic Church but I do not think it happens as often as you seem to think it does. The vast majority of Catholics I know who have a devotion to our blessed mother know where to draw that line. The few who do cross that line know that she is not God and that she is subservient to Him they are just a bit overzealous.
As for me Jesus always kept the commandment to honor His mother and as I strive to immitate Him so will I honor His mother.

 

[GeorgeCooney]

JMJ
The English language has very serious problems when it comes to delivering clear definitions. That is one of the many reasons Latin was a most valuable tool for the Church. We say in English, “I worship the ground she walks on!” We say, “I adore your new curtains!” We do not blaspheme when we say these things because our meaning does not extend to the same meaning when we adore or worship God. In Latin the veneration due and given to God is called latria. Only God may be venerated with the cult of latria. The saints and angels are venerated with the cult of dulia. The Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, is venerated with the cult of hyper-dulia.

The Virgin Mary is a creature; that is one who is created by God. Therefore, she cannot be God and her distance from being God is infinite. However, she was chosen to be the Mother of God, to contain in her womb God Who cannot be contained in all the Universe. God preserved her from all sin, including original sin, to render her worthy to carry Him in her womb. The graces given to her are the fullness of grace. She is full of grace. “…Hail, full of grace. the Lord is with thee…” (Luke 1, 28). Her will is in perfect harmony with the Will of God through this abundance of grace. She would never conceive, much less ask for, anything contrary to God’s Will.

The idea that Mary can change God’s Will is ridiculous, but there is an infinity between God’s Will and our understanding. During the wedding feast at Cana, Mary asked her Son to help with the shortage of wine. He replied that His time had not come, but He granted her wish. This is a clear signal to humans that God wishes us to petition Him through His Mother, thereby showing our respect and honor to His Mother. He did not change His Mind in granting her request, but demonstarted His desire that we should venerate her (hyper-dulia) by submitting our requests through her.

Mary is created greater than all the other creations of God combined, therefore, she is before all others. She is the Mother of God, the Mother of the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, therefore, as Mother of the King of Kings she is queen of heaven and earth and all creation. God is the One Who stated in the Commandments He gave to Moses, that to honor the father and mother is a requirement. Would God, taking the nature of man in the Person of Christ Jesus, honor His own Mother to any degree less than that deserved by the Mother of God?

God gave His Apostles the power to perform miracles. Is it surprising that He would give much more power to His Mother whose perfections exceed not only all of the Apostles combined, but all of creation and creatures combined?
Mary is not God. She is a creature of God, but her position, chosen by God and freely accepted humbly by herself (fiat), makes her worthy of our love, devotion, dependence, and veneration in the cult of hyper-dulia.

 

[steve_b]

Melchior:

Steve,

I think you missunderstand me. And as a result are drawing false conclusions. What I meant was that people pray to Mary to ask her to pray for us. That is how many a knowledgable Catholic have explained it. But since Mary is not omniscient, it requires an act of God for Mary to hear our prayers. Not that God brings our prayers to Mary for her to answer. But that God allows mary to hear and to intercede for us.

So far so good

Melchior:

Also, am I to understand that Mary must carry our prayers to God or can we also go directly to God? If I pray to the Father I am certain God does not require me to go through Mary. But I must go through Jesus.

Of course you can go directly to God. That wasn’t the point. Scripture encourages us to pray for each other. And attached to that, it says ask for a righteous person to pray for you because the prayers of a righteous person is powerful and** avails much**. Correct? Ergo, scripture says, the righteous are more apt to have their prayers answered. Scripture does not forbid us to do this, in fact it tells us to do this. Which means it is the Holy Spirit instructing us to do it. Therefore we ask God directly, AND we ask the mother of God to pray for us, whom we know is fully righteous, and full of grace. That’s all it means. It’s perfectly scriptural.

 

[steve_b]

Melchior:

Steve,

I think you read to much accusation into my post. I am talking about people who use language that seems to indicate that Mary is God. Even if they don’ believe it their actions betray them. If you say Mary is behind certain world events, I say you are attributing qualities of diety to her.

Perhaps I did go off a little with the Marian Apparitions thing. But in my experience, those who hang on every word of apparitions, even if not sanctioned by the church have an unhealthy imbalance in their faith

Even when the Church approves certain apparitions, they are not opposed to anything the Church teaches. And further the Church says they [even the approved apparitions] are not to be confused with an article of faith that must be believed. That means Catholics are free to believe in approved apparitions, and they are free not to believe in them.

Melchior:

ans seem to be afraid of God and thus Mary becomes the foxus of their faith. When that happens Mary becomes their god. This is not something I thing the majority of Catholics do.

I think you’re overblowing the issue, and yes a majority of Catholics know the boundries.

Melchior:

But enough do this to make it an issue.

I completely disagree

Melchior:

That is why I ask my question. I was not looking for a debate or a defense. My entire point was that these people seem out of step with Catholic teaching.

I was not criticizing those who pray the Rosary. And I did not start with error - you just misread me and assumed my premise was wrong, perhaps because I am not Catholic.

It’s possible I misunderstood, but If you’ll recall, I quoted you directly. An no it’s not because you’re not Catholic

 

[iguana27]

Melchior:

Also, am I to understand that Mary must carry our prayers to God or can we also go directly to God? If I pray to the Father I am certain God does not require me to go through Mary. But I must go through Jesus.

Mel,

You do not have to ask Mary to pray for you, you get to. That is, it is not necessary for you to ask for her intercession, but you can, because she, like all the saints, is in heaven praying and interceeding constantly. Her prayers are powerful because she is in the presence of God. You can still pray to God, but in the same way that you might ask a friend to pray for you, you can also ask the intercession of your heavenly friends, Mary included.

Peace,
Iguana

 

[Melchior]

Thanks, Guys. I appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut and clarifications.

Blessings,

Mel

 

[DeniseTOCarm]

Mary is both Sister and Mother to us.She continually shows us the way to our Father (and hers) through her Son our Lord Jesus. We ask her to pray for us. A lot of Catholics use a short hand. It could sound like we thnk she has her own power, but we know she does not. Of course, there may be some poorly catechized people who do not understand this.

 

[maggiec]

All I know is She was instrumental in obtaining some very hard to get military records so that my husband and I could get married in the church.
My husband was baptized and confirmed in Japan while stationed there and everything depended on us getting that paperwork. After 2 months of praying the rosary daily we received the papers in the mail just in time to be married at morning mass on our 5th wedding anniversary (jp). No one can tell me that Our Mother didn’t have her hand it it,
maggiec

 

[Little_Mary]

iguana27:

Mel,

You do not have to ask Mary to pray for you, you get to. That is, it is not necessary for you to ask for her intercession, but you can, because she, like all the saints, is in heaven praying and interceeding constantly. Her prayers are powerful because she is in the presence of God. You can still pray to God, but in the same way that you might ask a friend to pray for you, you can also ask the intercession of your heavenly friends, Mary included.

Peace,
Iguana

Iguana, if you don’t mind, I would like to add something to this:

Mary IS in heaven praying and interceding for us BECAUSE she loves each and every one of us as much (more) as any mother loves her own child. She loves us dearly and wants us to be in heaven with her Son.

Thanks

 

[nordskoven]

There are objective abuses of the cultus of the Blessed Virgin Mary. The most condemned apparition in the history of the Church, “The Woman Who Once Was Mary: Lady of All Nations, Coredemptrix, Mediatrix & Advocate” is a prime example. From Pius XII onwards the phony Dutch seer, Ida Peerdeman, was warned against and condemned outright multiple times. “Satan” means “rebel.” Nominal Catholic rebels have consistently disobeyed Peter using this creepy, fist-shaking “Mary” as an excuse.

Franciscan University professor Mark Miravalle and his VOX POPULI (voice of the people) sell Ida Peerdeman’s condemned text. Miravalle has arranged for millions upon millions to sign and send petitions demanding that Peter adopt Peerdeman’s “Final Dogma,” “Coredemptrix, Mediatrix & Advocate.” Even cut off from Peerdeman and considered separately, the Vatican has soundly reject CoMA as confusing and divisive.

Amsterdam’s “Lady of All Nations” is but one example of pseudo-Catholics adopting the rebel tack of being self-shepherding sheep. This will not end any time soon as such fake apparitions and the pilgrimage trade is highly lucrative.

Blessed Virgin Mary, pierced with a sword of sorrow that the thoughts of all may be revealed, expose all thoughts, cleansing them in the fire of your Son’s Sacred Heart. AMEN

 

[Super_Mom]

." Even cut off from Peerdeman and considered separately, the Vatican has soundly reject CoMA as confusing and divisive.

Hi Nordskoven:
Here’s some info I found on “Coredemptrix”…"…In June of 1997 a document entitled “Declaration of the Theological Commission of the Congress of Czestochowa” was published in L’Osservatore Romano as produced by a “commission established by the Holy See.” The document advised against a papal proclamation for several reasons: 1)the titles Coredemptrix, Mediatrix and Advocate are ambiguous; 2) more theological clarity is needed regarding the doctrine; 3) ecumenical concerns and the direction taked by the Second Vatican Council make a papal definition inopportune.

The commission, though established by the Holy See lacks magisterial authority. It issued an opinion and its advice; it did not promulgate a decision of the Holy See. …Furthermore, in 2002, again, long after the “Declaration,” under the direct supervision of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, and in response to the request of the Holy See, Sr. Lucia of Fatima, the only living visionary of the apparition of Our Lady of the Rosary in 1917, published a “spiritual testament"concerning the messages of Our Lady. In that work, “Calls” from the Message of Fatima, " Sr. Lucia refers to Our Lady as Coredemptrix eight times. Clearly the faithful are not acting contrary to the wishes of the Church by calling Mary Coredemptrix and desiring her to be honored as such. Similar accusations were made against the supporters of the Immaculate Conception before its definition.”

There is an order approved by the Church and faithful and orthodox that calls for in an orderly way, Our Lady to be known as Coredemptrix. They are called “Opus Mariae Mediatricis (The Work of Mary Mediatrix) Their web page is www.omm.org There are faithful Catholics that wish to see Our Lady honored with this title. The Fathers at Vatican II avoided using this term (Coredemptrix of the human race) out of ecumenical concern but indicated in an explanatory note that they judged this title and other Marian titles to be” most true in themselves."

 

[J_Chrysostomos]

I think this issue is one where Protestants most misunderstand Catholics. Having recently made good Catholic friends and fellowshipped with them led me into reading. And now, while I’m still not sure about praying through Mary and the saints, I don’t think it’s offensive or blasphemous. As explained to me it makes much more sense. What bugs me is when people start calling her “Co-Redemptrix” and I’ve seen and read about some Catholics who seem to have more devotion and reverence to Mary than to Christ. Misunderstanding I know, but problematic nonetheless.