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Melchior
Guest
Excellent summary of what I was trying to say.
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Kotton
Guest
I understood what you were saying right off, no problem. There were some posters that didn’t quite see your point. You are definitly on the mark that some do go overboard, as I read it that way as well. Yes, there are a few who even persist in an apparition after the Church says it’s not to be followed. I’m not a great follower of Marian apparitions, but do believe in Fatima and Lourdes. Mary does have a place in my prayer life, but Jesus Christ is my Savior.Excellent summary of what I was trying to say.
Kotton
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yves
Guest
Hi, Mel!
There is a helpful article by James Akin entitled “Praying to the Saints” that you might want to glance at when you have time. You can find it online. It is apologetical (is that a word) and so you might find it a little defensive on a few points, but he covers a lot.
I think it is fair to say that some people confuse love for the Blessed Mother with what amounts to superstition and idolatry.
They usually have good intentions, but they don’t understand what they’re doing.
For my part, the more I read and pray about the many devotions to our Mother, the more I find that devotions to her are all about Jesus. Have you read anything by or about St. Louis de Montfort? His writings are very beautiful and peaceful – holy – and he was very devoted to Saint Mary.
May the Holy Spirit guide you in your quest and may God bless you and yours always.
P
Prometheum_x
Guest
Prior to my recent conversion, some of the prayers to Mary definitely seemed overboard. However, I also noticed that the prayers that the same sorts of people wrote to God were done in a language that I never use for God, either. My shallow understanding is that many of the words and flowery descripitions for Mary are just that – what is to me sickenly sweet piety. It seems that much of it is the same as a man writing a letter to his beloved, a letter with words that drip, perhaps absurd to all but the man and his beloved. Such language tends towards the use of hyperbole, and it seems that much of the Marian literature uses hyperbole as well.
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Super_Mom
Guest
Hi J_Chrysostomos;
What bugs you about the term “co-redemptrix”? The term properly understood and explained poses no problem. It doesn’t mean that Mary redeemed us along with and equal to Jesus. It means with and dependent on Jesus. “The Co-redemption is the unique participation of Mary in the redemptive act of her Son Jesus on the cross. This participation is real, active and effective, though SUBORDINATE AND DEPENDENT on Jesus ( capitalization mine
) For this reason, Mary is called Co-redemptrix or Co-redemptress, meaning the woman who redeems with Jesus.” (from booklet called The Compassion of the Mother in the Passion of the Christ by Fr. Angelo Mary Geiger ) Does this help explain it?
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Hesychios
Guest
This is a highly devisive topic in Catholic circles! :whacky:
Melchior is right to bring the subject up, but in a Catholic Forum one must be very brave indeed.
What alarms me the most is that it is practically impossible to discuss this topic in a rational way almost everywhere because some people are so animated about it. Thankfully this thread has been very civil, I hope it continues to be.
So if I may just venture an opinion I would like to say that Saint Mary is the one topic that a Catholic could go to any extreme in praise of without fear of criticism, while by contrast the Papacy, the bishops and clergy of the church, valid General Councils and the Curia are vulnerable to any criticism in an open forum anywhere.
I am certain many laypeople honor Mary with not only hyperdulia but even latria because they don’t know any better. I talk to Catholics everywhere and this is my opinion. When was the last time anyone here ever had to correct an individual for praising Mary too much? Probably never, we always give the benefit of the doubt. It is just like hyperMarianists are teflon coated, nothing sticks to them. Why are we so afraid to admit this? We say things like “those flowery phrases don’t mean what they sound like” etc.
I have theory (no one has to believe this !
) that the extreme praise forms used generation after generation have effected the poorly catechized into misunderstanding the role and status of Mary. This is a major reason why many young Catholics leave the church, because that is the understanding they get (as flawed as it is) and they ultimately reject it, and justifiably so. The ‘worship’ they witness and are taught in their own families goes over the edge, they reject it and mistakenly dump the whole church with it, because nobody around them will admit that there is a problem.
Now just for me saying that some people will accuse me of being in error. I am only expressing an opinion and I am not criticising the church’s teaching or talking about my own feelings and opinion about Mary (whom I love as my mother) but how I perceive some others think about Mary.
Another point that bears reflecting on is that no Catholic anywhere is bound to accept private revelation. We each and every one of us have the option to ignore or even doubt appearences of Mary anywhere, including Fatima, Lourdes, Medjugorje, etc.
So it is entirely possible that they never happened! Although that would surprise me. That being the case, shouldn’t we be a bit more circumspect in allowing these apparitions and messages to form our faith? Isn’t there enough Truth in the Catholic Faith that we shouldn’t need to know the latest message from Medjugorje? Would it be so terrible to find out that Sr Lucia was mistaken about what she remembered?
For the general information of the readers here there was a cult of Mary in southern Poland that was condemned by the church. It had a following that some say was 1 million, Pius X condemned it and 600,000 people (including priests) were excomunicated. The possibility is very real and the consequences could be quite serious.
Nil Carius Christo,
Michael, that sinner
Melchior is right to bring the subject up, but in a Catholic Forum one must be very brave indeed.
What alarms me the most is that it is practically impossible to discuss this topic in a rational way almost everywhere because some people are so animated about it. Thankfully this thread has been very civil, I hope it continues to be.
So if I may just venture an opinion I would like to say that Saint Mary is the one topic that a Catholic could go to any extreme in praise of without fear of criticism, while by contrast the Papacy, the bishops and clergy of the church, valid General Councils and the Curia are vulnerable to any criticism in an open forum anywhere.
I am certain many laypeople honor Mary with not only hyperdulia but even latria because they don’t know any better. I talk to Catholics everywhere and this is my opinion. When was the last time anyone here ever had to correct an individual for praising Mary too much? Probably never, we always give the benefit of the doubt. It is just like hyperMarianists are teflon coated, nothing sticks to them. Why are we so afraid to admit this? We say things like “those flowery phrases don’t mean what they sound like” etc.
I have theory (no one has to believe this !
) that the extreme praise forms used generation after generation have effected the poorly catechized into misunderstanding the role and status of Mary. This is a major reason why many young Catholics leave the church, because that is the understanding they get (as flawed as it is) and they ultimately reject it, and justifiably so. The ‘worship’ they witness and are taught in their own families goes over the edge, they reject it and mistakenly dump the whole church with it, because nobody around them will admit that there is a problem.Now just for me saying that some people will accuse me of being in error. I am only expressing an opinion and I am not criticising the church’s teaching or talking about my own feelings and opinion about Mary (whom I love as my mother) but how I perceive some others think about Mary.
Another point that bears reflecting on is that no Catholic anywhere is bound to accept private revelation. We each and every one of us have the option to ignore or even doubt appearences of Mary anywhere, including Fatima, Lourdes, Medjugorje, etc.
So it is entirely possible that they never happened! Although that would surprise me. That being the case, shouldn’t we be a bit more circumspect in allowing these apparitions and messages to form our faith? Isn’t there enough Truth in the Catholic Faith that we shouldn’t need to know the latest message from Medjugorje? Would it be so terrible to find out that Sr Lucia was mistaken about what she remembered?
For the general information of the readers here there was a cult of Mary in southern Poland that was condemned by the church. It had a following that some say was 1 million, Pius X condemned it and 600,000 people (including priests) were excomunicated. The possibility is very real and the consequences could be quite serious.
Nil Carius Christo,
Michael, that sinner
H
Hesychios
Guest
Super Mom:
With all respect this is part of what I was trying to say in my last post.
The way ordinary English speaking people use the term co-anything it means a lot more than we mean by it!
That is like saying to someone a co-pilot doesn’t really fly the plane. A co-author doesn’t really write the book, a co-producer doesn’t really run the production. Properly understood they don’t?
What is surprising to me is that so many people are insistant upon using these terms when we know how ambiguous they are and difficult to teach.
The terminology is loaded. We should be careful not to confuse the public we are trying to convert.
In the Theotokos,
Michael
Glory to Jesus Christ!
With all respect this is part of what I was trying to say in my last post.
The way ordinary English speaking people use the term co-anything it means a lot more than we mean by it!
That is like saying to someone a co-pilot doesn’t really fly the plane. A co-author doesn’t really write the book, a co-producer doesn’t really run the production. Properly understood they don’t?
What is surprising to me is that so many people are insistant upon using these terms when we know how ambiguous they are and difficult to teach.
The terminology is loaded. We should be careful not to confuse the public we are trying to convert.
In the Theotokos,
Michael
S
Super_Mom
Guest
" It is just like hyperMarianists are teflon coated, nothing sticks to them. Why are we so afraid to admit this? We say things like “those flowery phrases don’t mean what they sound like” etc. "
Hesychios, I think the other thing to remember is an author writes in a certain style of the time he writes in. The various saints writings (St. Alphonsus Liguori’s “The Glories of Mary” come to mind) were flowery because that was the style of religious writing at the time.
Yes, I have corrected people who honored Mary “too much” by pointing out that various apprations they were following were not honoring Mary in the right way.
If you think someone is honoring Mary with Latria devotion, and ask them if Mary is more powerful than God or some question of a similar nature, I think you will get the answer that God is greater of course. I have seen people honor Mary that “looks” as if they are worshipping God but upon asking them they have the understanding that Mary is not greater than God. I would say that they maybe are being imprudent in their actions but their understanding is right. I’ve never been told by anyone that they worship Mary or that she is more powerful than God but I can see how someone might think so from some peoples actions
About the co- thing you are right. The way our language uses co- it does mean equal. All I can say is if the Pope does proclaim the co-remptrix, he will have a lengthy and detailed explainition and he might use a different word that means the same. I imagine the proclaiming of the Immaculate Conception caused some confusion with some people.
Anyways I don’t know why its such a divisive topic. For us who love Our Lady and understand the teachings on her, it should unite us.
Hesychios, I think the other thing to remember is an author writes in a certain style of the time he writes in. The various saints writings (St. Alphonsus Liguori’s “The Glories of Mary” come to mind) were flowery because that was the style of religious writing at the time.
Yes, I have corrected people who honored Mary “too much” by pointing out that various apprations they were following were not honoring Mary in the right way.
If you think someone is honoring Mary with Latria devotion, and ask them if Mary is more powerful than God or some question of a similar nature, I think you will get the answer that God is greater of course. I have seen people honor Mary that “looks” as if they are worshipping God but upon asking them they have the understanding that Mary is not greater than God. I would say that they maybe are being imprudent in their actions but their understanding is right. I’ve never been told by anyone that they worship Mary or that she is more powerful than God but I can see how someone might think so from some peoples actions
About the co- thing you are right. The way our language uses co- it does mean equal. All I can say is if the Pope does proclaim the co-remptrix, he will have a lengthy and detailed explainition and he might use a different word that means the same. I imagine the proclaiming of the Immaculate Conception caused some confusion with some people.
Anyways I don’t know why its such a divisive topic. For us who love Our Lady and understand the teachings on her, it should unite us.
P
Prometheum_x
Guest
Super Mom said:" It is just like hyperMarianists are teflon coated, nothing sticks to them. Why are we so afraid to admit this? We say things like “those flowery phrases don’t mean what they sound like” etc. "
Hesychios, I think the other thing to remember is an author writes in a certain style of the time he writes in. The various saints writings (St. Alphonsus Liguori’s “The Glories of Mary” come to mind) were flowery because that was the style of religious writing at the time.
Yes, I have corrected people who honored Mary “too much” by pointing out that various apprations they were following were not honoring Mary in the right way.
If you think someone is honoring Mary with Latria devotion, and ask them if Mary is more powerful than God or some question of a similar nature, I think you will get the answer that God is greater of course. I have seen people honor Mary that “looks” as if they are worshipping God but upon asking them they have the understanding that Mary is not greater than God. I would say that they maybe are being imprudent in their actions but their understanding is right. I’ve never been told by anyone that they worship Mary or that she is more powerful than God but I can see how someone might think so from some peoples actions
About the co- thing you are right. The way our language uses co- it does mean equal. All I can say is if the Pope does proclaim the co-remptrix, he will have a lengthy and detailed explainition and he might use a different word that means the same. I imagine the proclaiming of the Immaculate Conception caused some confusion with some people.
Anyways I don’t know why its such a divisive topic. For us who love Our Lady and understand the teachings on her, it should unite us.
If I was to use the hyperbolic language sometimes used for Mary, I would probably be going “too far”, at least at the present time. Since I a) don’t think with that sort of vocabulary and b) don’t use that sort of language in regards to God, using it for Mary would be quite excessive (for me).
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