Regarding Necessary Conditions for Miracles to be Granted

[ethereality]

This thread is a continuation of its predecessor, since the link previously shared is now broken (now updated to a working webpage). I am also asking again because I need more assistance.

Will you please read my analysis of petitionary prayer for miraculous healing and share your thoughts? Am I correct? Are there any flaws? Am I missing anything?

I am distressed because Jesus promised God would give us good things ‘soon’, but I have been waiting a long time, which seems to falsify Jesus’ promise.

In short, until someone can point out errors in my Biblical interpretation or explain something I have overlooked, every day that I continue suffering what God has promised to heal soon appears to me as evidence against the truthfulness of the Church and the existence of God. Hence, God is forcing me to believe in spite of my daily situation, and it seems cruel.

I can now only think of two reasons why God hasn’t yet healed me:

1. 
   *]God doesn’t exist.
   *]God doesn’t care how miserable I am.
   
   It’s not only that God hasn’t healed me, but that God hasn’t communicated with me at all except through humans (in which case a) I don’t understand how to distinguish human communication from divine communication, b) what is the purpose of prayer if it’s not a conversation?); Jesus appears only as bread and wine; situations continue to worsen; I don’t see that life is worth living.
   
   I cannot justify calling a god who gives me such misery and pushes me to the brink of despair ‘loving’, ‘Father’, etc., except to appeal to the authority of the Church. However, I cannot demonstrate the authority of the Church, as every miracle I have tried to ascertain has been beyond the reach of verifiability: It seems they require the free choice to believe or disbelieve.
   
   The webpage contains quotations of the cited passages; here is its summary:
   

   1. 
      *]Focus on God and ridding yourself of sin, both act and attachment. Sin is separation from God; the less sin, the more you allow God to work in your life and heal you. [Psalm 24, Proverbs 21:13, Matthew 6, John 15, James 4, James 5, 1 John 3, St. Aquinas, St. Augustine]
      *]God may wait for when we are ready to receive the healing. [Mark 9, St. Aquinas]
      *]God may wait for the proper context for a miracle to be properly understood, e.g. a saint’s feast day when requesting intercession. (Cf. Our Lady of Akita, St. John Paul II’s canonization process, or Jesus apparently waiting for Lazarus to die before visiting Mary and Martha to restore him to health.)
      *]Persevere in prayer. You may have to wait a while (though not long according to Jesus), but take comfort in knowing the wait is for the best. [Luke 18]
      *]Believe that you will receive it. [Matthew 9, Matthew 13, Mark 11]
      *]Continue believing that you will receive it even if all physical appearances suggest the contrary. [Matthew 14, Mark 11]
      *]Pray privately, not broadcasting it to all the world in an ostentatious manner. [Matthew 6]
      *]Seek to grow in holiness (“seek the kingdom of God”) and do God’s will first, the healing being of secondary importance. Not only does this have practical consequences (e.g. less anxiety over the timing of the healing), but I think it also is healthier for your relationship with God, recognizing that God is more important than His gifts, and as implied at the beginning, it more quickly opens us to be able to receive them. [Matthew 6]
      *]Have faith, holding to all the articles of the faith. [Romans 8; 1 John 3,5]
      *]Forgive and make amends with others, and receive the Sacrament of Confession regularly. [Mark 11, James 5]
      *]Ask. Don’t feel that something is “too small”, trivial, or difficult for God. [Matthew 7, Luke 15]
      *]Don’t ask for sinful things. [James 4]
      *]Note that prayers for another depend on them as well, regarding all of these points. [Mark 11]
      *]Request the intercession of a venerable or saint. I think it might be better to choose a venerable, since God could use the petition to also glorify someone for the encouragement and benefit of the Church. [James 5]
      *]Pray before the Blessed Sacrament and the tabernacle. Praying in the sacramental presence of Jesus Himself seems both natural and pleasing to the god who made us body-spirit hybrids. [Matthew 8, Luke 13]
      *]Receive the Eucharist as often as possible. If simply touching Jesus’ clothing can result in healing, how much more when we bodily receive the Divine Physician in Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity! [Matthew 9, Catholic Answers]
      *]If a terminal illness, consider whether “God is calling home” the one suffering it. [Philippians 1]

 

[BobCatholic]

I have a hypothesis. This hypothesis is untested.

First, the basis of the hypothesis:

1. James 5:16 - the prayer of a righteous man avails much.
2. It is God’s will that He be glorified in His saints.
3. It is God’s will that a saint be canonized and recognized in the universal Church.
4. The Church does God’s will.
5. The Church wishes to canonize saints to be good examples for the faithful.
6. There are saints yet to be canonized.
7. They are in various stages: unknown, servant of God, beatified.
8. It takes two miracles to formally canonize a saint.
9. The canonized saint candidate can interceded if they are in heaven.
10. The two miracles are proof the candidate is in heaven.
11. The miracles come through the intercession of the saints.
12. Once a saint has been canonized, additional miracles will not affect the canonization.

Second, the hypothesis:
Find a candidate who has not been canonized a saint yet. They can be unknown, or a servant of God, or even better a Beatified. I recommend going for the Beatified candidates, as they are only one miracle away from being canonized. Do your due diligence, find a candidate that has holiness and a good example, and is likely to be canonized if given the chance.

Third, what to do
Ask the candidate to pray for you to perform the miracle.
Ask their intercession for a particular medical miracle.
Keep diligent records of the existence of the illness/condition/medical issue prior to this.
Pray for their intercession, and keep them as the sole intercessor.

If the miracle happens, this is within God’s will because God wanted that candidate canonized. I think the odds of having the miracle happening are higher than praying to an already canonized saint. The Church needs the miracles to formally canonize the candidate, so you are more likely to get the miracle.

And make sure you Glorify God when the miracle happens!

So what do you think?

 

[Joy2day]

What did Jesus say? ‘take up your cross and follow,Me’. Are you abandoning Him because you have been given a cross?
What are you most loyal to: worldly comfort or Our Lord?
‘Anyone who would be a follower of Mine, must renounce himself, take up.his cross and follow Me’.
‘For many are called, but few are chosen’.
It would be good to be chosen, but it comes at a cost. Pray for strength & perseverance & to never lose sight. Offer up your sufferings for others. God bless you.

 

[without]

1 God doesn’t exist.
2 God doesn’t care how miserable I am.

I vote #1 as the best explanation, as do tens of millions of starving people in every country of this planet.

 

[BobCatholic]

What did Jesus say? ‘take up your cross and follow,Me’. Are you abandoning Him because you have been given a cross?

And how do you know it is not the other way around: God gives a cross and abandons you to it?

What are you most loyal to: worldly comfort or Our Lord?

Is God’s mercy infinite? Or is it ONLY infinite in the spiritual sphere and totally exempt from the temporal sphere?

‘For many are called, but few are chosen’.

And this means many are rejected and not wanted by Jesus.

 

[Joy2day]

Well Bob, did God abandon Jesus to His cross? Study the bible. Was it all roses for the apostles or for God’s mother even?

 

[Sunbreak]

Well I’d look at deception as a factor for not receiving a miracle since the poll question leads one to believe that the poll is about the necessary conditions for miracles but really only asks for someone’s age.

 

[BobCatholic]

Well Bob, did God abandon Jesus to His cross? Study the bible. Was it all roses for the apostles or for God’s mother even?

Jesus is God, and since he is united hypo-statically to the Divine essence, God the Father cannot abandon him to the cross.

We, on the other hand are different. We’re not God. Therefore God CAN abandon us to our cross, and does.

Of course it wasn’t all roses for the Apostles, it was all suffering. That’s what life is all about, suffering, nothing more.

 

[seagal]

Jesus is God, and since he is united hypo-statically to the Divine essence, God the Father cannot abandon him to the cross.

We, on the other hand are different. We’re not God. Therefore God CAN abandon us to our cross, and does.

Of course it wasn’t all roses for the Apostles, it was all suffering. That’s what life is all about, suffering, nothing more.

Your right, life is about suffering and God does expect us to bear our crosses. But he doesn’t abandon us to them. He will help us through it.

Ethereality, there are no easy answers and no “magic” formula or list of conditions to be met to get God to perform a miracle. I know that you are in extreme misery and desperate for relief. If you look at the lives of the saints you’d see that the majority of them had their own sufferings and miseries. But God didn’t abandon them, they had immense joy and love also. Find a saint that you can relate to and make him/her your patron saint. Ask them to help you help you face your suffering, and ask God for the strength and grace to sustain you. Ask Jesus to unite your sufferings with his and offer it up for someone else’s benefit (the souls in purgatory, the persecuted Christians in Syria, a friend or family member far from God). That way your suffering is not in vain but can be a source of great grace. This is what it means to take up your cross, and it’s the only way you’ll find peace in your situation.

God bless you, I’ll pray for you.

 

[seagal]

And this means many are rejected and not wanted by Jesus.

I wonder how you can say that? Jesus wants all to be saved. Few are chosen because few answer the call.

 

[BobCatholic]

I wonder how you can say that? Jesus wants all to be saved. Few are chosen because few answer the call.

Few are ABLE to answer the call. We are created imperfect. We are temporally held responsible for the sin of Adam and Eve.

Your right, life is about suffering and God does expect us to bear our crosses. But he doesn’t abandon us to them. He will help us through it.

Has God promised that?

Where does it say that God will TEMPORALLY help us through it?
Grace is insufficient when there are temporal issues at hand.

 

[Joy2day]

You’re generally grumpy, arent you Bob? You need someone to blame, so I suppose thats why you believe in God. But basically you really hate God dont you? Are you an old man too?

 

[BobCatholic]

You’re generally grumpy, arent you Bob? You need someone to blame, so I suppose thats why you believe in God. But basically you really hate God dont you? Are you an old man too?

So you cannot answer my questions or objections and go for “I’ll take ad-hominem attacks for $400, Alex” on the Jeopardy board then?

 

[seagal]

Few are ABLE to answer the call. We are created imperfect. We are temporally held responsible for the sin of Adam and Eve.

Do you think God doesn’t know we are imperfect, that we are sinners? He calls us anyway because he knows we ARE able, but not all of us are WILLING.

We aren’t held responsible for the sin of our first parents, but we do bear the consequences of that sin. Similar to a pregnant woman who is addicted to heroin passing on that addiction to her child. The child isn’t responsible, but can’t escape the consequences of her mother’s actions.

Has God promised that?

Where does it say that God will TEMPORALLY help us through it?
Grace is insufficient when there are temporal issues at hand.

Romans 8:26 “In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;…”

Read the psalms. I recommend #23, but also 27, 30, 34, just to name a couple.

 

[BobCatholic]

Do you think God doesn’t know we are imperfect, that we are sinners? He calls us anyway because he knows we ARE able, but not all of us are WILLING.

God knows we are imperfect but does not provide the temporal needs to make things happen?

Imagine you are required to run a marathon but have paralyzed? Unless God heals the paralysis, you’re not running the marathon. Game over.

God has to provide the temporal resource for people to be ABLE To do things.

We aren’t held responsible for the sin of our first parents, but we do bear the consequences of that sin. Similar to a pregnant woman who is addicted to heroin passing on that addiction to her child. The child isn’t responsible, but can’t escape the consequences of her mother’s actions.

The consequence is part of the punishment. So we are held temporally responsible.

Romans 8:26 “In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;…”

Read the psalms. I recommend #23, but also 27, 30, 34, just to name a couple.

Romans 8:26 is a spiritual help, not a temporal help.

Psalm 27 says God will provide temporally where?
Same for the others?

If God promised to provide temporally, and he does not, what is my recourse? None.

If you are making the case that God has promised to help temporally, then the “health and wealth” gospel must be true. I reject that view. It goes contrary to the Catholic faith.

God gives us the cross. That’s life. I am required to be crushed by the cross, I am the wheat, to be milled into flour. I am the grapes required to be squished into juice and fermented into wine. I have no value until I am crushed by the cross. I have no dignity until the self (which is evil) is dead.

 

[seagal]

God knows we are imperfect but does not provide the temporal needs to make things happen?

Imagine you are required to run a marathon but have paralyzed? Unless God heals the paralysis, you’re not running the marathon. Game over.

God has to provide the temporal resource for people to be ABLE To do things.

What things exactly are you talking about? God isn’t going to cure your paralysis to run a marathon, but he will give you the grace and strength to help you with your struggles in life. He even cures people sometimes. Are you bitter because he didn’t cure you?

The consequence is part of the punishment. So we are held temporally responsible.

Suffering the consequences of someone else’s actions is not the same as being held responsible. If a drunk driver hit a pedestrian and he becomes paralyzed, is the pedestrian responsible for his own injuries?

If you are making the case that God has promised to help temporally, then the “health and wealth” gospel must be true. I reject that view. It goes contrary to the Catholic faith.

I don’t believe in the H&W gospel any more than you do. I must not be understanding your definition of temporally. To me it means in time, not in the afterlife. You seem to think it means “physically”.

God gives us the cross. That’s life. I am required to be crushed by the cross, I am the wheat, to be milled into flour. I am the grapes required to be squished into juice and fermented into wine. I have no value until I am crushed by the cross. I have no dignity until the self (which is evil) is dead.

Your attitude seems to be one of utter despair and hopelessness. That’s not the life of a Christian. Yes, we have to die to self in order to become the person God wants us to be, but that’s a spiritual cross and a spiritual death. There’s lots of scriptural help for those crosses.

Matthew 11:29-30 “Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. for My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

 

[BobCatholic]

What things exactly are you talking about? God isn’t going to cure your paralysis to run a marathon, but he will give you the grace and strength to help you with your struggles in life.

Right, he gives us grace, not the temporal need.

Are you bitter because he didn’t cure you?

Bitter? No. Accepting of God’s will with tears and sadness? Yes.

Suffering the consequences of someone else’s actions is not the same as being held responsible. If a drunk driver hit a pedestrian and he becomes paralyzed, is the pedestrian responsible for his own injuries?

No, he’s held responsible for the drunk driver’s action.

I don’t believe in the H&W gospel any more than you do. I must not be understanding your definition of temporally. To me it means in time, not in the afterlife. You seem to think it means “physically”.

I’m talking about here in time too.

Your attitude seems to be one of utter despair and hopelessness. That’s not the life of a Christian.

I can’t change God’s mind. So how is there hope?

Yes, we have to die to self in order to become the person God wants us to be, but that’s a spiritual cross and a spiritual death. There’s lots of scriptural help for those crosses.

That’s because the self is evil.

 

[ethereality]

I have a hypothesis. This hypothesis is untested.
…]
So what do you think?

I started this “experiment” around February 2014, and have prayed more or less every day. I used to pray the Liturgy of the Hours and the Rosary, but now it’s mostly limited to the formal intercessory prayers, my own prayers, and Mass and sometimes Japanese Morning Prayer (or Evening Prayer).

Every day that passes, every reception of the Eucharist where God not only doesn’t heal me, but appears utterly absent, makes it more difficult to continue believing that God will heal me. I have recently been wondering whether God wants me to delete the photos I took before (for proof that the miracle occurred): Perhaps these photos would be too much for some people’s free will. Yet God hasn’t made this point clear to me, even despite my prayers that He would, so I am not sure how to proceed.

Do you think God will be more likely to heal me if I delete the photos I took so there’s only verbal testimony of the prior condition?

However, now that I think of it, I recall reading that the Vatican rejected one alleged miracle because of incomplete documentation – as I recall, the hospital didn’t keep all the x-rays or something like that. … But I guess this doesn’t relate to my own personal documentation.

 

[ethereality]

Well I’d look at deception as a factor for not receiving a miracle since the poll question leads one to believe that the poll is about the necessary conditions for miracles but really only asks for someone’s age.

Sunbreak, is there a forum policy that the poll question must relate directly to the thread topic? This is not standard practice on other forums I have used online. Rather, the poll question can be about anything at all, and in this case is to give the reader a demographic breakdown on those visiting this thread.

 

[ethereality]

We, on the other hand are different. We’re not God. Therefore God CAN abandon us to our cross, and does.

I’m hesitant to jump in here, but perhaps one point for thought (much more can be said) …

1. We are made of nothing.
2. Everything God does, God does infinitely, outside of time, i.e. “at once”.

Therefore God holds us in being at every moment of our lives: If God were to abandon us, we would cease to exist. That’s my understanding of Catholic theology. Thus, God doesn’t abandon us, even when we are suffering.

To the contrary (now repeating a point I made previously), Jesus entered into our suffering to demonstrate His love for us, and as I’ve said earlier, suffering blinds us to God (i.e. suffering is not seeing God, just as the joy of heaven is seeing God (the Beatific Vision)). Suffering doesn’t necessarily imply God isn’t doing something or isn’t there. Finally, since God is love, we can know that God loves us, if we believe the Church.