Regarding politics

[VeritasLuxMea]

I’m a little confused about Catholicism and politics. It’s not entirely clear how this works. A general conservatism seems to pervade the Church. The Pope makes vague comments such as “capitalism and communism have both gone to extremes and those extremes should be avoided”, (this is not verbatim). A lot of people I know seem to think that you “must” have certain positions on particular political issues, whereas others believe that it is up to your discernment, reasoning and moral intuition.

Curiously, I feel like the Bible and Jesus himself say next to nothing about the subject from what I can tell either.

So let’s say your conscience and profound study lead you to believe that particular ideas are most conducive with certain principles (justice, mercy, love, etc.). Would you say that alone is the justification you need to endorse political positions or is there anything else?

 

[Cat]

Simply put, in the U.S., it is the conservatives who are pro-life, and the liberals who are pro-choice (pro-abortion).

Since a pro-abortion stance is utterly inconsistent with Catholic teachings, many Catholics gravitate towards the conservative side of politics.

There’s more than just abortion involved. In the U.S., the conservatives are generally in favor of smaller government and more local government involvement, while liberals are generally in favor of bigger government and more federal government involvement. The concept of involving the smallest, most local authority is called “subsidiarism,” and it is advocated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. So that’s another reason why Catholics are often conservatives.

There is a false idea in the U.S. that conservatives are for the rich, while the liberals are for the poor. This is utterly false. Many of the policies that liberals advocate keep the poor poor, while many of the conservative policies actually help the poor to advance to a better state in life. Also, the conservative policies generally end up allowing us to keep more of our earnings, which means that we have more money to give to charitable institutions, including our Church.

This is an extremely simplified explanation of politics and Catholics, and I hope that it is helpful to you. I can’t speak about politics in other countries, but in the U.S., it is very difficult to go through life without taking a stand on politics. We are a democracy (actually, a republic), and that means “government by the people.” If the people don’t become involved, then the government doesn’t work, or a group of people who do not represent most Americans take charge. I don’t believe that Christians can just sit back and let others do the politics thing. If we sit back, others step forward, and those people are not generally going to institute policies that are friendly to Catholics.

 

[TrueLight]

Simply put, in the U.S., it is the conservatives who are pro-life, and the liberals who are pro-choice (pro-abortion).

Since a pro-abortion stance is utterly inconsistent with Catholic teachings, many Catholics gravitate towards the conservative side of politics.
The concept of involving the smallest, most local authority is called “subsidiarism,” and it is advocated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Can I have a reference for this? Thanks.

There is a false idea in the U.S. that conservatives are for the rich, while the liberals are for the poor. This is utterly false. Many of the policies that liberals advocate keep the poor poor, while many of the conservative policies actually help the poor to advance to a better state in life. Also, the conservative policies generally end up allowing us to keep more of our earnings, which means that we have more money to give to charitable institutions, including our Church.

This is an extremely simplified explanation of politics and Catholics, and I hope that it is helpful to you. I can’t speak about politics in other countries, but in the U.S., it is very difficult to go through life without taking a stand on politics. We are a democracy (actually, a republic), and that means “government by the people.” If the people don’t become involved, then the government doesn’t work, or a group of people who do not represent most Americans take charge. I don’t believe that Christians can just sit back and let others do the politics thing. If we sit back, others step forward, and those people are not generally going to institute policies that are friendly to Catholics.

Cat, sounds like you’re saying Catholics should be political conservatives.

 

[Cat]

Subsidiarity: Catechism of the Catholic Church paragraphs 1883, 1884, 1885.

Paragraph 1885 makes it clear that the principle of subsidiarity is opposed to all forms of collectivism.

I hope this is what you are asking for.

 

[TrueLight]

Subsidiarity: Catechism of the Catholic Church paragraphs 1883, 1884, 1885.

Paragraph 1885 makes it clear that the principle of subsidiarity is opposed to all forms of collectivism.

I hope this is what you are asking for.

Yes, that’s what I needed. I have to run (singing today), but I will take a look later.

I didn’t realize the catechism went into socialization, etc.

Thanks.

 

[Cat]

Can I have a reference for this? Thanks.

Cat, sounds like you’re saying Catholics should be political conservatives.

I think that in the U.S., it is difficult for Christians, both Catholic and other, to justify a liberal political viewpoint, as so many liberal policies are utterly opposed to Christian teachings.

The abortion issue alone should close the book. Liberals are generally pro-legalized abortion, even though they often say they are personally opposed to abortion. Well, isn’t that special?!

No. I can’t buy that, and I think that Christians who buy that are fooling themselves. A country that allows abortion to be the law of the land is a country in grave danger. We are fortunate that God has decided to have mercy on the United States whlie we allow this law and permit the killings of millions of pre-born humans.

If the liberals would miraculously revert on the abortion issue, and join conservatives in crying out for the end of legalized abortion in the U.S., I can understand why some Catholics would feel inclined to be liberal, in spite of the subsidiarity issue. But we all know this isn’t happening and won’t happen. Liberals have given themselves over to the lie that “I wouldn’t personally have an abortion, but I believe others should have the right to have one.” Unbelievable. Appalling.

 

[Lucysmom]

Surely Jesus said: “Render to Caesar what belongs to Caesar. And give to God what belongs to God.” And what belongs more to God than life! From conception to natural death.

 

[laszlo]

Simply put, in the U.S., it is the conservatives who are pro-life, and the liberals who are pro-choice (pro-abortion).

Since a pro-abortion stance is utterly inconsistent with Catholic teachings, many Catholics gravitate towards the conservative side of politics.

What Catholics should understand, it is that the birth rate in 1973 was 15 and this level kept unchanged, so the conservative pro life stand after the 23 vs 12 years of conservative rule is nothing else but empty lip service. To prove this, in the time when 7 of the Supreme Court judges out of 9 was nominated by the conservatives and nothing happened, the conservatives still parroted that if they get the opportunity to nominate Supreme court judges that will be beneficial, and many Catholics ate it.

The Bible is clear: separate your religion (worship God) and the obedience to the earthly power. The Church itself is divine hierarchy, and it accepts any form of the earthly government, knowing with Aristotle (not from revelation but from the rational mind) that the democracy, the immediate influence of the people over the government is the worst possible form, the most unstable, the most abuse-able form of the government.

I personalty believe that voting for lip service, so without real responsibility is sin. I used to go to the voting place and submit empty ballons telling that the best government bought by Mammon, the Greed is not what I want. I accept it, but do not believe in it as good.

 

[char239]

There are non-negotiables like abortion that come first, and much of the rest is, as you say, up to your discernment, reasoning and moral intuition.

Beyond these non-negotiables, Catholics can legitimately have varying opinions about how the country should be run, whether there should be private or public healthcare, what sort of social assistance, if any, should be given to whom and by what level of government (subsidiarity) or charity, etc.

A good Catholic will often be forced to vote for a right-wing candidate even though they disagree with them on many issues because right-wingers are more likely to take the Catholic stance on the non-negotiables. But if you’re Catholic, you aren’t truly left or right. These terms are generally just labels for two different flavours of and understandings of liberal political theory, one more “progressive” than the other, neither fully in accordance with Catholicism, neither wholly incompatible.

These ideologies, left and right, come not from Christianity but from the writings of various philosophers and politicians and they’re founded on varying principles, some Christian or compatible, others not. Beyond the essentials, you don’t have to subscribe to anything you don’t want to. If you’re a Catholic, you subscribe to Catholicism first and foremost, and above any political ideology, be it right or left.

 

[Chatter163]

Refuges and immigration? Death penalty? Social teachings of the Church?

 

[char239]

Refuges and immigration? Death penalty? Social teachings of the Church?

As far as I’m aware, a Catholic can be either for or against the death penalty and be in good standing with the Church.

Similarly with immigration, a State can legitimately control who is allowed to reside within its borders, and is free to naturalise or deport those who enter illegally, provided it treats illegal immigrants in a manner fitting for a human being. In some cases that may mean granting them asylum if returning to their country of origin might endanger their lives.

The hierarchy may express its own views too, and may even recommend them, but it seems to me there is a lot of leeway for an individual Catholic.

 

[JRKH]

Well from quick glance the coversation seem to take an immediate right turn into pro-creative issues which does not seem to be the specific question of the OP…Let’s see if we can shead som light on the OP’s question…

I’m a little confused about Catholicism and politics. It’s not entirely clear how this works. A general conservatism seems to pervade the Church. The Pope makes vague comments such as “capitalism and communism have both gone to extremes and those extremes should be avoided”, (this is not verbatim). A lot of people I know seem to think that you “must” have certain positions on particular political issues, whereas others believe that it is up to your discernment, reasoning and moral intuition.

1. Yes the Church does tend to be “conservative” largely because she tends to stick with the essential truths and weighs “new ideas” against these essentials.
2. The reason that the Pope makes “vague comments” is because subjects like these are large and complex and each system has good and bad components. As you say yourself, the pope speaks out agianst “extremes”. He speaks in favor of justice.
3. There are certain issues that Catholics need to hold firm on while other issues can have a greater leeway.
   For instance, Abortion is an absolute - no wiggle room here. It is an evil that needs to be fought and there really is no compromise. On the other hand, while care for the poor is an essential, there can be various views ideas about how best to approach this.
   Fianlly, while there is much that is up to our, “discernment, reasoning and moral intuition”, it is important to remember that we need to form these discernments in light of the teachings of the church.

Curiously, I feel like the Bible and Jesus himself say next to nothing about the subject from what I can tell either.

Not sure if you have a particular “subject” in mind but Jesus spoke a great deal about how we are to treat each other.

So let’s say your conscience and profound study lead you to believe that particular ideas are most conducive with certain principles (justice, mercy, love, etc.). Would you say that alone is the justification you need to endorse political positions or is there anything else?

There definitely is something else needed…Prayer, and the deisre to always do the will of God.

then too it will depend a bit on what “profound study” involves…and what principles underly how you “form” your conscience on a particular issue. The items you mention above, are good principles to work from…
Then - so long as the Church has not made any definative statement on the specific issue - I would see this as sufficient Justification.

Peace
James

 

[Cat]

What Catholics should understand, it is that the birth rate in 1973 was 15 and this level kept unchanged, so the conservative pro life stand after the 23 vs 12 years of conservative rule is nothing else but empty lip service. To prove this, in the time when 7 of the Supreme Court judges out of 9 was nominated by the conservatives and nothing happened, the conservatives still parroted that if they get the opportunity to nominate Supreme court judges that will be beneficial, and many Catholics ate it.

The Bible is clear: separate your religion (worship God) and the obedience to the earthly power. The Church itself is divine hierarchy, and it accepts any form of the earthly government, knowing with Aristotle (not from revelation but from the rational mind) that the democracy, the immediate influence of the people over the government is the worst possible form, the most unstable, the most abuse-able form of the government.

I personalty believe that voting for lip service, so without real responsibility is sin. I used to go to the voting place and submit empty ballons telling that the best government bought by Mammon, the Greed is not what I want. I accept it, but do not believe in it as good.

So you vote liberal?

 

[Timothysis]

Yes the Church does tend to be “conservative” largely because she tends to stick with the essential truths and weighs “new ideas” against these essentials.

Actually, the Church is conservative when it comes to theology, but tends to be much less so when it comes to social issues.

The labels “conservative” and “liberal” have become completely meaningless today. Most Americans regard themselves as “centrists” now, which is simply a blurring of positions that used to be regarded as right or left. Can anyone say “relativism?”

 

[laszlo]

So you vote liberal?

I vote against the perpetual war, against selling out the country to usurers, against the total irresponsibility related to the environment, against banishing the religion and morality from the schools and the public life. I do not vote for empty pro life lip service. I submit and empty ballot.

 

[GloriousOrder]

The Roman Catholic Church has nothing to do with political parties. You are not just to “vote your conscience”, however. Knowing what each party or candidate believes (and wishes to enforce) shows you just where they want to go. A man who says it’s perfectly alright to give everyone the choice to ruthlessly murder babies is advocating a pure moral evil. If *one venial sin *is more terrible than all the deaths by disease, virus, cancer, plane crashes, car accidents, etc. put together, imagine how much worse a mortal sin is. If a political leader is openly advocating and planning to implement pure mortal sin in his society, he is a tool of Satan.

The conscience can very easily be obscured and blocked. Our conscience is always the true Word of God, but one can easily be misled by the powers of Hell. It’s not that the conscience gets corrupted, but it just gets hard to access thanks to the offensive and assaults constantly pushed on us. CONSCIENCE IS NOT EVERYTHING - not because it’s wrong, but because we so often ignore it. American Liberalism is purely evil because it is based on LICENSE (freedom without constraint or ethics), and American conservatism is purely evil because it is based on LICENSE. Both may claim to be very different, but in the end they basically want everyone to “follow their conscience”, which is a very dumb thing to advocate in a sinful, fallen world. European liberalism is purely evil because it’s based entirely in material wealth. European leftism and conservatism tend to be purely evil because they’re based entirely in trying to create a material utopia which denies the spirit, even despite their spiritual dreams.

A truly Catholic candidate or party would attack abortion and call for its total illegalisation. They would demand that parochial schools be free to operate and to attend, in order to give the knowledge and truth of God to all men regardless of wealth. They would demand dialogue in Christian love with all men, but would warily and efficiently keep a strong armed force for all unjust attacks on their country’s soil. They would demand the banning of homosexual activity and protests to promote of “gay rights”. They would demand the closure of non-voluntary stem-cell research centers. They would legislate to preserve the true liberty of the children of God, which is the open freedom to be educated by the Church in matters of eternal salvation. Free schooling just to learn mechanics, economics, math, languages, and chemistry would be secondary, not primary in importance. The truly Catholic political movement would demand authority, discipline, reverence, and good will without straying into tyrannical “justice” OR into squishy “mercy”. A truly Catholic politician is moderate, steering his course in the Church, by the Church, for the Church, with the Church, and entirely in service of God’s people to lead them on the straight path.

Theocracy tends to corrupt things, but we need a quasi-theocracy in terms of the moral character of the politicians.

 

[archangel04]

Simply put, in the U.S., it is the conservatives who are pro-life, and the liberals who are pro-choice (pro-abortion).

Since a pro-abortion stance is utterly inconsistent with Catholic teachings, many Catholics gravitate towards the conservative side of politics.

There’s more than just abortion involved. In the U.S., the conservatives are generally in favor of smaller government and more local government involvement, while liberals are generally in favor of bigger government and more federal government involvement. The concept of involving the smallest, most local authority is called “subsidiarism,” and it is advocated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. So that’s another reason why Catholics are often conservatives.

There is a false idea in the U.S. that conservatives are for the rich, while the liberals are for the poor. This is utterly false. Many of the policies that liberals advocate keep the poor poor, while many of the conservative policies actually help the poor to advance to a better state in life. Also, the conservative policies generally end up allowing us to keep more of our earnings, which means that we have more money to give to charitable institutions, including our Church.

This is an extremely simplified explanation of politics and Catholics, and I hope that it is helpful to you. I can’t speak about politics in other countries, but in the U.S., it is very difficult to go through life without taking a stand on politics. We are a democracy (actually, a republic), and that means “government by the people.” If the people don’t become involved, then the government doesn’t work, or a group of people who do not represent most Americans take charge. I don’t believe that Christians can just sit back and let others do the politics thing. If we sit back, others step forward, and those people are not generally going to institute policies that are friendly to Catholics.

Wow I think this is the first time I’ve completly agreed with you!

Vote for me for President when I am old enough to run people

 

[PJM]

=VeritasLuxMea;7895866]I’m a little confused about Catholicism and politics. It’s not entirely clear how this works. A general conservatism seems to pervade the Church. The Pope makes vague comments such as “capitalism and communism have both gone to extremes and those extremes should be avoided”, (this is not verbatim). A lot of people I know seem to think that you “must” have certain positions on particular political issues, whereas others believe that it is up to your discernment, reasoning and moral intuition.

Curiously, I feel like the Bible and Jesus himself say next to nothing about the subject from what I can tell either.

So let’s say your conscience and profound study lead you to believe that particular ideas are most conducive with certain principles (justice, mercy, love, etc.). Would you say that alone is the justification you need to endorse political positions or is there anything else?

GREAT QUESTION,

What is critical to ones possible salvation is NOT to be in any way support [voting for is support of] any candidate that has publically stated a position that is against what the Church Teaches, Because THAT IS WHAT CHRIST teaches.

Everyone has a GRAVE Moral responsibility to have a Properly INFORMED Moral conscience. The test for this is if your holding to a postion opposed and defined by the Magisterium of the CC; your conscience is NOT properly formed.

The problem is not a political one; BUT A MORAL ONE. WWJD? Any candidate reguardless of political afiliation that supports IN ANY WAY to ANY EXTENT: Abortion, Gay union / “marriage” for example cannot be suppoted by our votes. Issues of assisting the poor are far more vague and need to be evaluated on their merits.

These TWO issues are “Intrinsic Evils” That can NEVER be given support by catolics or Christians. Their are no possible offe-sets in moral equivilence. Not war, not anything!

We are ALL obligated to VOTE MORAL CONSIDERATIONS and not political affiliation.

God Bless,
Pat

 

[JRKH]

Actually, the Church is conservative when it comes to theology, but tends to be much less so when it comes to social issues.

The labels “conservative” and “liberal” have become completely meaningless today. Most Americans regard themselves as “centrists” now, which is simply a blurring of positions that used to be regarded as right or left. Can anyone say “relativism?”

Thanks for chiming in on this…you are right…
Actually I was not particularly thinking about the political “labels” when I responded. I was thinking more along the lines of being conservative in the sense of not jumping on every new idea, or making loud broad sweeping, off the cuff, statements.
Rather - the Church is “conservative”, and careful in its approach to things trying to promote what is good in each viewpoint.
I think it’t the kind of thing some would call “concensus building.”

Peace
James

 

[archangel04]

No matter how much I tried to see liberal/democrats as the good guys, their policies just don’t work! I was very much a liberal in my early 20s, but their policies just did not work and did not benefit those who they claimed they were out to help. No one who works should have their hard earn money taken away by the govenment and distributed to organizations that “claim” to help the poor, ex. well-fare. I think it’s more charitable and Chritian like for the person to give a share of their earned money to an organization of their choosing. Socialism just doesn’t work!