? regarding Psalm prayers LOTH

[Della]

My dh and I have been praying the LOTH and have been reciting the Psalm prayers at the end of the Psalms, but we’re not sure if we are to recite the Psalm’s antiphon first or the Psalm prayer first. We want to do it correctly. Thanks.

 

[Vico]

My dh and I have been praying the LOTH and have been reciting the Psalm prayers at the end of the Psalms, but we’re not sure if we are to recite the Psalm’s antiphon first or the Psalm prayer first. We want to do it correctly. Thanks.

They are approved but not necessary.

1. Psalm-prayers for each psalm are given in the supplement to the Liturgy of the Hours, to help in understanding them in a predominantly Christian way. They may be used in the ancient traditional way: after the psalm a period of silence is observed, then the prayer gathers up and rounds off the thoughts and inspirations of those taking part.
2. The antiphon for each psalm should always be recited at the beginning…At the end of the psalm the custom in maintained of concluding with the Glory to the Father and As it was in the beginning…the antiphon may be repeated at the end of the psalm.

dariasockey.blogspot.com/2013/04/divine-office-factoid-5-perenniel-psalm.html

 

[Jean_Anthony]

Thank you for your kind response, Vico, but it doesn’t really answer my question.

 

[Della]

Thank you, Vico for replying, but I’m afraid your quotes don’t really answer my question.

 

[Vico]

Thank you, Vico for replying, but I’m afraid your quotes don’t really answer my question.

The antiphon may be repeated at the end of the psalm is not the answer?

 

[OraLabora]

Antiphon/psalm/antiphon/psalm-prayer is the proper way. When the psalm is chanted, the last note of the psalm is meant to gracefully take you to or near the first note of the antiphon, so to put the psalm-prayer first would be dissonant. The antiphon is also usually a verse from the psalm or seasonally-appropriate scripture verse or paraphrase, so it makes more sense to include the antiphon as part of the psalmody before and after. The psalm-prayers are an optional extra and are a reflection on the psalm, not directly from the psalm or bible itself as the antiphons are.

FWIW, they aren’t even in the French LOTH, nor even the Latin editio typica! I have them in French in my monastic breviary though.

And to end any “it was ICEL nonsense”, it wasn’t. They came from a Spanish Benedictine monk. But they didn’t catch on. Even though they were in our abbey’s breviary, they never used them. When they reissued new books of their own rather than ones published elsewhere, they didn’t include them.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Antiphon/psalm/antiphon/psalm-prayer is the proper way. When the psalm is chanted, the last note of the psalm is meant to gracefully take you to or near the first note of the antiphon, so to put the psalm-prayer first would be dissonant. The antiphon is also usually a verse from the psalm or seasonally-appropriate scripture verse or paraphrase, so it makes more sense to include the antiphon as part of the psalmody before and after. The psalm-prayers are an optional extra and are a reflection on the psalm, not directly from the psalm or bible itself as the antiphons are.

FWIW, they aren’t even in the French LOTH, nor even the Latin editio typica! I have them in French in my monastic breviary though.

And to end any “it was ICEL nonsense”, it wasn’t. They came from a Spanish Benedictine monk. But they didn’t catch on. Even though they were in our abbey’s breviary, they never used them. When they reissued new books of their own rather than ones published elsewhere, they didn’t include them.

Very well said.

 

[Della]

Antiphon/psalm/antiphon/psalm-prayer is the proper way. When the psalm is chanted, the last note of the psalm is meant to gracefully take you to or near the first note of the antiphon, so to put the psalm-prayer first would be dissonant. The antiphon is also usually a verse from the psalm or seasonally-appropriate scripture verse or paraphrase, so it makes more sense to include the antiphon as part of the psalmody before and after. The psalm-prayers are an optional extra and are a reflection on the psalm, not directly from the psalm or bible itself as the antiphons are.

FWIW, they aren’t even in the French LOTH, nor even the Latin editio typica! I have them in French in my monastic breviary though.

And to end any “it was ICEL nonsense”, it wasn’t. They came from a Spanish Benedictine monk. But they didn’t catch on. Even though they were in our abbey’s breviary, they never used them. When they reissued new books of their own rather than ones published elsewhere, they didn’t include them.

Thank you. :tiphat: Our confusion came about because the General Instruction of the Liturgy of the Hours doesn’t specify when the psalm prayer is to be recited. Nor does it say that it is optional (I’m not doubting you–just relating this fact). Anyway, thank you for clarifying this for us.

 

[porthos11]

My dh and I have been praying the LOTH and have been reciting the Psalm prayers at the end of the Psalms, but we’re not sure if we are to recite the Psalm’s antiphon first or the Psalm prayer first. We want to do it correctly. Thanks.

Either practice is acceptable, i.e. psalm-prayer before repeat antiphon or after.

That said, the reason “correct” is vague is that the Psalm-prayers themselves are optional, although one might not see this from just reading the Psalter. I myself omit them and go over them mentally during the pause between psalms.

 

[Cor_ad_Cor]

Antiphon/psalm/antiphon/psalm-prayer is the proper way. When the psalm is chanted, the last note of the psalm is meant to gracefully take you to or near the first note of the antiphon, so to put the psalm-prayer first would be dissonant. The antiphon is also usually a verse from the psalm or seasonally-appropriate scripture verse or paraphrase, so it makes more sense to include the antiphon as part of the psalmody before and after. The psalm-prayers are an optional extra and are a reflection on the psalm, not directly from the psalm or bible itself as the antiphons are.

FWIW, they aren’t even in the French LOTH, nor even the Latin editio typica! I have them in French in my monastic breviary though.

And to end any “it was ICEL nonsense”, it wasn’t. They came from a Spanish Benedictine monk. But they didn’t catch on. Even though they were in our abbey’s breviary, they never used them. When they reissued new books of their own rather than ones published elsewhere, they didn’t include them.

Interesting…around here, as on divineoffice.org, I’m used to hearing the exact opposite.

 

[Todd977]

In my 4-volume LOTH, published by Catholic Book Publishing Co., New York, 1975, not all of the psalms have a psalm-prayer but when they do, such as the first psalm of the Psalmody for Week I, Sunday, Evening Prayer I, the following order is observed:
Antiphon
Psalm
Glory to the Father, etc.
Psalm-prayer
Antiphon

 

[Marysann]

I use the Morning and Evening Prayer edition printed by Collins in the UK. This edition has the imprimatur from British bishops, and is approved for use in just about all English speaking countries except the US and Canada. It has no psalm prayers. I lived in Rome for three and a half years and attended Vespers on Sunday afternoons at St. Peter’s occasionally. I always used my Collins edition to translate the Latin that was used there. They did not use the psalm prayers either. I purchased my first Collins Morning and Evening Prayer at the Vatican bookstore (it wore out so I had to order another from Amazon.uk), not the museum shop, so I am sure that it is approved. The Vatican bookstore, being in Europe, doesn’t sell the American editions. The Collins is not approved for public worship in the US, but since I am just a layperson not bound by any requirement to recite the LOTH, I can use any edition I want. I like the Collins for the translation, which is mostly from the Jerusalem Bible, and for the lovely hymns. I use my American calendar to make sure that I have the correct feasts since this book doesn’t have an American calendar. I have heard complaints that the psalm prayers have an ideological bent that some don’t like. I can’t say for sure because I have never read them. However, if the psalm prayers aren’t used in public services of the LOTH at the Vatican, it is hard to make the case that they could be required.

 

[OraLabora]

Nor does it say that it is optional (I’m not doubting you–just relating this fact).

The fact that they don’t exist in many editions of the LOTH, including the Latin Editio Typica from which all translations are drawn, I think clarifies what the rubrics leave out

They certainly aren’t in the French LOTH, whether the full 4-volume or the 1-volume (without readings for the Office of Readings).

 

[OraLabora]

Interesting…around here, as on divineoffice.org, I’m used to hearing the exact opposite.

I suppose if the psalm isn’t chanted it doesn’t make that much difference, but if chanted, it would be extremely difficult to pick up the first note of the antiphon after the psalm-prayer. The endings of chant verses are made to correspond with the mode of the antiphon.

 

[Della]

Thank you, everyone, for your comments. It seems logical to me to complete the Psalm with the antiphon and then do the Psalm prayer–especially since it isn’t made clear in the instructions one way or the other. As laypeople my dh and I like to do what is set out in the versions meant for the USA. So, that’s what we’ll do. Thanks again, everyone. :tiphat:

 

[Magdalen2013]

Thank you, everyone, for your comments. It seems logical to me to complete the Psalm with the antiphon and then do the Psalm prayer–especially since it isn’t made clear in the instructions one way or the other. As laypeople my dh and I like to do what is set out in the versions meant for the USA. So, that’s what we’ll do. Thanks again, everyone. :tiphat:

I’m in the USA and I don’t do the psalm prayers – it breaks the flow too much. I also use the new Kenyan (English) LotH, because it uses the Revised Grail Psalms, and the language flows more than the current American edition.

I was taught do:

Antiphon
Psalm
Antiphon
Glory Be
Antiphon

 

[OraLabora]

I’m in the USA and I don’t do the psalm prayers – it breaks the flow too much. I also use the new Kenyan (English) LotH, because it uses the Revised Grail Psalms, and the language flows more than the current American edition.

I was taught do:

Antiphon
Psalm
Antiphon
Glory Be
Antiphon

The antiphon between the psalm and the doxology isn’t required, and is never done that way in chant. Only the antiphon after the doxology is normally used with some exceptions like the invitatory when the invitatory is repeated throughout the psalm.

 

[L_Marshall]

I do feel like I should interject this into the discussion:

The “Psalm-Prayers” aren’t in the Editio Typica of the LOTH, and are only found in some English copies. Since they’re not in the Editio Typica, they’re not part of the universal LOTH per se, but they’re a local addition (and allowed, by all means).

However, after speaking with some people who serve on ICEL, who is currently re-translating the LOTH like they did the Mass, the Psalm-Prayers will be completely removed for the next edition of the LOTH. They will no longer be an option once this new version is approved and published (expect five years or so).

 

[Vico]

I’m in the USA and I don’t do the psalm prayers – it breaks the flow too much. I also use the new Kenyan (English) LotH, because it uses the Revised Grail Psalms, and the language flows more than the current American edition.

I was taught do:

Antiphon
Psalm
Antiphon
Glory Be
Antiphon

This is from some notes from Diocese of La Crosse, Wisconsin:

The psalms and canticle are recited antiphonally, that is, one side of the group
alternating with the other according to the division of the strophes. After the
leader recites the antiphon, those on his side begin the psalm together. At the
end of the psalm, the Glory to the Father is said (one side saying Glory to the
Father, the other saying as it was in the beginning) and the antiphon is
repeated by all. If the psalm-prayer is to be said, the leader prays it after the
antiphon has been repeated and with a proper introduction and conclusion.

dioceseoflacrosse.com/ministry_resources/sacred_worship/06Resources/Time/Liturgy%20of%20the%20Hours.pdf

 

[Jean_Anthony]

I do feel like I should interject this into the discussion:

The “Psalm-Prayers” aren’t in the Editio Typica of the LOTH, and are only found in some English copies. Since they’re not in the Editio Typica, they’re not part of the universal LOTH per se, but they’re a local addition (and allowed, by all means).

However, after speaking with some people who serve on ICEL, who is currently re-translating the LOTH like they did the Mass, the Psalm-Prayers will be completely removed for the next edition of the LOTH. They will no longer be an option once this new version is approved and published (expect five years or so).

Thank you for the information. I rather suspected as much, especially since some of the prayers seem a bit too influenced by 60’s and 70’s sensibilities. I do hope they revise the Intercessory prayers and the concluding ones, as well. I’d like to see the offices renamed what they were traditionally named, as well as the prayers, etc. We’ll see what we get when it comes out.