Regarding salvation, which of these three options do you think is most accurate?

[PJM]

It’s impossible for a Catholic to know with 100% certainty that he has grace. Check the Council of Trent:

Sess. 6, Decree Concerning Justification, Ch. IX: “no one can know with the certainty of faith, which cannot be subject to error, that he has obtained the grace of God”

As I said and I think you were gesturing towards, we can certainly have very well-founded hope when to the best of our knowledge we should have grace, but that doesn’t give us certainty. We could be lying to ourselves about the gravity of our sins, the depth of our contrition, etc. Only God can read our hearts with certainty. As Paul himself said (1 Cor 4:3-4): “But to me it is a very small thing to be judged by you, or by man’s day; but neither do I judge my own self. For I am not conscious to myself of any thing, yet am I not hereby justified; but he that judgeth me, is the Lord.”

My dear friend in Christ,

You raise some very interesting and valid points.

The fact that Catholics and Christians **can’t Assume **that we shall be saved is correct. Nor may we with certitude “know that we are Saved.” However…

However, we can (and Catholics most certainly can and do) if they exercise their right to advantage themselves of the sacrament of Known Forgivness, that we call, today, the Sacrament of Reconcillation. This is true if one makes a complete and worthy Confession (by careful reflection and complete candor and disclosure of all know mortal sins, and quanities of each."

John 20:21**"Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” 22* And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23* If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” ** Jesus granted this Power of His, to His Apostles… Bishops and Priest, which is a major reason to be a practcing RC!

Heb. Chapter 10:16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,” 17 then he adds, “I will remember their sins and their misdeeds no more.”** 18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin. "**

Heb. 10:16"This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds," **17 then he adds, “I will remember their sins and their misdeeds no more.” **18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.

Now there are clear conditions for a sin to be in fact a Mortal Sin…

1.    It has to be Serious matter

2.    One has to know prior to commiting the act that it is a Mortal sin

3.     One has to make a freewill decession to do the act anyway

**If one or more issues are missing, it cannot be a Mortal Sin!** Impossible that it is!

Therefore, it is highly probable that Catholics do know in fact if they are free of Mortal sins, which seperate us from a personal relationship with God, until we seek and receive forgiveness through Catholic Confession:extrahappy (The Sacrament of Known Forgiveness!)

 Once one had made a worthy and complete Confession to a Catholic priest or Bishop, has received "Absolution" and performed the perscribed Penance, we know **with certitude that our sins have been forgiven, even if we have unentionally forgotten** some sin or sins. However, intentional omitting Mortal sins have the effect of nulifying the Confession!

** So we Catholics can know with confidience that we “are in the State of God’s Grace.” We still rely on God’s Mercy and the Merits of Jesus in order to be “Saved.”**

This is what the RCC teaches, and Catholics who are informed, practice: :dancing: Amen!

 

[paul_c]

mmmcounts,
In matthew 19, when the Rich man asks Jesus what is needed for Eternal life, he says: follow the commandments. This is very straight forward. When he says that he has done all these since his youth, he asks what more he can do. Jesus says to him “To be PERFECT, give up your wealth and follow me.” He doesn’t say to be saved, he says to be PERFECT… so all the rest of the conjecture on the part of your reference is in error.

The simple fact is that you are on a Catholic blog offering choices of salvation that don’t meet the Catholic Criteria. We believe that Salvation begins with the sanctifying Grace that you get at baptism. That grace will allow you to have faith and that faith must be demonstrated by works. So you need to have three ingredients to be saved: Grace, Faith and Good works. Failure to have any of the three is Fatal… You can fall from grace, any time you commit a mortal sin. Fortunately for us, we can be reconciled with God and regain our lost grace through the sacrament of reconciliation, if we are contrite, repentent and do suitable pennance. Throughout our lives, we are called to holiness. To the extent that we fail to be holy but still are in grace, we will be purified and made worthy of eternal life with God in Purgatory.

Let’s be perfectly blunt about the theology of Luther. He was never comfortable with his own personal holiness, so he created a theology where holiness was unimportant and that all that was needed to be saved was spoken faith. But this isn’t the truth, it is completely self-serving. Satan is very cleaver. He used Luther and the politicians that supported him to propagate a theology that said : “Jesus did it all, you don’t have to do anything”, thus lulling those not seeking holiness to die in their complacency.
You will never find Jesus mouthing those words you use, " I have done everything, there is nothing for you to do but believe," because it is not Christ’s message, it is Satan’s. Christ message is to do his Father’s will, just as he did. He states in Matt 7:21-23:

Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, **but only the one who does the will **of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.

’
As we discussed earlier in this post, he said in Matthew 19 in answering the direct question about what was required for eternal life" Follow the commandments". In Matthew 25, he separates those that will be saved from those that will be condemned, not on faith but on whether or not they carried out the works of mercy for the least of his brothers. In James 2, we also have the famous retort to Luther’s theology: Faith without works is dead…

You have been warned over and over again, in scripture and in these threads, that you must do good works to be saved, yet you deny it. What more can be said?

 

[mmmcounts]

You have been warned over and over again, in scripture and in these threads, that you must do good works to be saved, yet you deny it. What more can be said?

Well, maybe you’ll want to check out this link. vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

It’s a pretty solid attempt to do something healthy- have dialogue between Lutherans and Catholics to see where they agree on their doctrine of justification. Where they differ, they say so, but it’s presented in a much healthier way than what you’re used to seeing. There’s more in common between us than you might think…and what we hold in common is not quite what you say it is. Check it.

By appropriating insights of recent biblical studies and drawing on modern investigations of the history of theology and dogma, the post-Vatican II ecumenical dialogue has led to a notable convergence concerning justification, with the result that this Joint Declaration is able to formulate a consensus on basic truths concerning the doctrine of justification.

In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triune God…Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.

Ok, so you say we must do good works to be saved. How in the world could I deny that? I could quote Scripture…

2 Tim 1:9 "Who did save us and did give us a holy calling not according to our works.
Titus 3:5 “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.”
Galatians 3:10-11 "So it is clear that no one can be made right with God by trying to keep the law. For the Scriptures say, “It is through faith that a righteous person has life.”
Romans 3:28 “So we are made right with God by faith and not by obeying the law.”
Ephesians 2:9 “Not of works.”

Or I could present you with a joint declaration by Lutherans and Catholics where Catholic leaders together with the Lutheran World Federation declare that justification is not because of any merit on our part. I’m not sure which of these sources means more to you.

We confess together that sinners are justified by faith in the saving action of God in Christ. By the action of the Holy Spirit in baptism, they are granted the gift of salvation, which lays the basis for the whole Christian life. They place their trust in God’s gracious promise by justifying faith, which includes hope in God and love for him. Such a faith is active in love and thus the Christian cannot and should not remain without works. But whatever in the justified precedes or follows the free gift of faith is neither the basis of justification nor merits it.

I’d strongly advise this course of action: Carefully study the preceding quote and commit it to memory.

Regarding Law and Gospel, here’s one more very important one to commit to memory.

We confess together that persons are justified by faith in the gospel “apart from works prescribed by the law” (Rom 3:28). Christ has fulfilled the law and by his death and resurrection has overcome it as a way to salvation. We also confess that God’s commandments retain their validity for the justified and that Christ has by his teaching and example expressed God’s will which is a standard for the conduct of the justified also.

Hey, they quoted one of the same verses I did! Note as we go through this that I am not denying the validity of God’s commandments, nor am I denying the need for good works in those who are saved (but not in order to be saved).

Because the law as a way to salvation has been fulfilled and overcome through the gospel, Catholics can say that Christ is not a lawgiver in the manner of Moses. When Catholics emphasize that the righteous are bound to observe God’s commandments, they do not thereby deny that through Jesus Christ God has mercifully promised to his children the grace of eternal life.

Do not deny this grace.

According to Catholic understanding, good works, made possible by grace and the working of the Holy Spirit, contribute to growth in grace, so that the righteousness that comes from God is preserved and communion with Christ is deepened. When Catholics affirm the “meritorious” character of good works, they wish to say that, according to the biblical witness, a reward in heaven is promised to these works. Their intention is to emphasize the responsibility of persons for their actions, not to contest the character of those works as gifts, or far less to deny that justification always remains the unmerited gift of grace.

But you wish to say that salvation is promised in response to these works, and your intention IS to contest the character of those works as gifts, and you DO deny that justification always remains an unmerited gift of grace. In doing so, you are not doing the Catholic Church any favors. Start getting this one right.

The understanding of the doctrine of justification set forth in this Declaration shows that a consensus in basic truths of the doctrine of justification exists between Lutherans and Catholics. Therefore the Lutheran and the Catholic explications of justification are in their difference open to one another and do not destroy the consensus regarding the basic truths.

 

[broski234]

Well, maybe you’ll want to check out this link. [

Ok, so you say we must do good works to be saved. How in the world could I deny that? I could quote Scripture…

2 Tim 1:9 "Who did save us and did give us a holy calling not according to our works.
Matthew 7:21…how do we get into Heaven, by crying Lord, Lord? By our faith alone? No…by whether or not we have done the will of God.]()
Titus 3:5 “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.”
Romans 2:6…God will render to every man according to his faith? No…according to his deeds
Galatians 3:10-11 "So it is clear that no one can be made right with God by trying to keep the law. For the Scriptures say, “It is through faith that a righteous person has life.”
**James 2:24 “You see that a man is justified by WORKS, and not by faith alone.” The only place in the whole Bible where the words “faith” and “alone” appear together, and it is to say NOT by “faith alone.” Who goes by what the Bible says and who doesn’t?
**
Romans 3:28 “So we are made right with God by faith and not by obeying the law.”
Matthew 19:17 "Now someone approached him and said, “Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?” He answered him, “Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. I fyou wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” Wheren’t these part of the law, the penteuch? I think so.
Ephesians 2:9 “Not of works.”
***Eph 2:10 "For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the GOOD WORKS that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.***Romans 2:6…God will render to every man according to his faith? No…according to his deeds.

James 2:12-13…God will judge without mercy those who have shown no mercy; which fits well with the next verse…

Matthew 6:15…God will not forgive you if you have not forgiven others; which fits well with the next verse…

Matthew 18:23-32…God will not forgive those who do not forgive others. In other words, we can’t be saved by faith alone…we have to forgive others to be saved. Isn’t that a work?

Matthew 25:31-46…how does God separate the sheep from the goats? By their faith? No…by what they have done.

Matthew 7:21…how do we get into Heaven, by crying Lord, Lord? By our faith alone? No…by whether or not we have done the will of God.

Rev 20:12…the dead were judged according to their faith? No…according to their works.

I could go on and on…every passage in the New Testament, that I know of, speaks of people being judged by their works, their deeds, by what they have done or by what they haven’t done. Not a single passage that I know of says that we will be judged by our faith alone. Yet you believe that! Why? Because people, not the Bible, have taught you that. Don’t get me wrong…I believe we are indeed saved by our faith, but not by our faith “alone.” I don’t believe that because God’s Word doesn’t teach it. Faith and works are both necessary responses to God’s free gift of His grace. If I believed in salvation by works “alone,” which I don’t, I could make a much better case for that from the Bible than you can for salvation by faith “alone” from the Bible.

 

[paul_c]

Well, maybe you’ll want to check out this link. vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html

It’s a pretty solid attempt to do something healthy- have dialogue between Lutherans and Catholics to see where they agree on their doctrine of justification. Where they differ, they say so, but it’s presented in a much healthier way than what you’re used to seeing. There’s more in common between us than you might think…and what we hold in common is not quite what you say it is. Check it.

mmmcount:
I am so glad that you read this document so you start understanding the Catholic position better. The Catholic position is basically a balance between predestination and free will. We recognize that God predestined us to salvation but that he also gave us the free will to turn toward or away from God. Man can not be granted salvation on his own, but God will allow him to choose not to be saved. Man’s choice is demonstrated by his actions.

This document is very clear that Catholics are expected to live lives of holiness in order to be saved. The Lutheran’s do not deny that Good works are expected, but they seem to say they are not required. There in lies the rub…

 

[mmmcounts]

every passage in the New Testament, that I know of, speaks of people being judged by their works, their deeds, by what they have done or by what they haven’t done. Not a single passage that I know of says that we will be judged by our faith alone. Yet you believe that!

No, I don’t. We are judged by our works. We are saved by grace through faith, not of works. Can I make this any more clear?

According to Catholic understanding, good works, made possible by grace and the working of the Holy Spirit, contribute to growth in grace, so that the righteousness that comes from God is preserved and communion with Christ is deepened. When Catholics affirm the “meritorious” character of good works, they wish to say that, according to the biblical witness, a reward in heaven is promised to these works. Their intention is to emphasize the responsibility of persons for their actions, not to contest the character of those works as gifts, or far less to deny that justification always remains the unmerited gift of grace.

Don’t get me wrong…I believe we are indeed saved by our faith, but not by our faith “alone.”

Looks like you are the one who got me wrong. And you managed to get the Catholic faith wrong, too, because you do indeed deny that justification always remains the unmerited gift of grace. You affirm that it is merited by your works.

I don’t believe that because God’s Word doesn’t teach it. Faith and works are both necessary responses to God’s free gift of His grace.

Good! You just need to understand that it is by faith that you receive this unmerited free gift, and works are a necessary response (that’s why James was written), but you are not saved by them (that’s why the letter to the Galatians was written.)

 

[broski234]

No, I don’t. We are judged by our works. We are saved by grace through faith, not of works. Can I make this any more clear?

According to Catholic understanding, good works, made possible by grace and the working of the Holy Spirit, contribute to growth in grace, so that the righteousness that comes from God is preserved and communion with Christ is deepened. When Catholics affirm the “meritorious” character of good works, they wish to say that, according to the biblical witness, a reward in heaven is promised to these works. Their intention is to emphasize the responsibility of persons for their actions, not to contest the character of those works as gifts, or far less to deny that justification always remains the unmerited gift of grace.

Looks like you are the one who got me wrong. And you managed to get the Catholic faith wrong, too, because you do indeed deny that justification always remains the unmerited gift of grace. You affirm that it is merited by your works.

Good! You just need to understand that it is by faith that you receive this unmerited free gift, and works are a necessary response (that’s why James was written), but you are not saved by them (that’s why the letter to the Galatians was written.)

If works doesn’t play a role in justification, then those passages make no sense. James doesn’t talk about a saving faith. No where does it say such a thing or is implied. Read James 2:26. I do understand the Catholic teaching. We are saved by GRACE ALONE, through faith WORKING in love. Faith and works through the Grace of God. Can I be anymore clear on that? It is definitely clear you don’t understand the Catholic teaching of works and the role the play in salvation. We are able to do these works by the grace of God. Show me in the Catechism where it says we merit anything in and of ourselves. It is not by faith that we receive these gifts, it is through Gods Grace! Faith and works are part of our cooperation with that grace. Are we clear now?

 

[paul_c]

mmmcounts:
I’m surprised to see you write that you know more about the Catholic positions than the Catholics on this board.

Looks like you are the one who got me wrong. And you managed to get the Catholic faith wrong, too, because you do indeed deny that justification always remains the unmerited gift of grace. You affirm that it is merited by your works.

The problem is that you don’t understand justification in the same way that Catholics do. We use Justification to mean that Jesus has opened up the doors of heaven to us. This was done without any merit on our part and is a pure gift. We then have to go through that door by demonstrating faith through good works. This part has merit. If I have it right, when you think of justification, you think of it as entailing full entry into eternal life, hence your disconnect on the Catholic meaning.

Your other comment also is a product of this misunderstanding of the Catholic concept of Justification:

Good! You just need to understand that it is by faith that you receive this unmerited free gift, and works are a necessary response (that’s why James was written), but you are not saved by them (that’s why the letter to the Galatians was written.)

So Jesus, through his passion, provided us with Justification, the ability to get to heaven. This was a gift, completely devoid of any merit on our part, results in sanctifying grace when we are baptized into his church. We must lead lives of faith and love to maintain this grace, which is sufficient for our salvation. If we fail to do so and sin, we lose this grace and will no longer be allowed to enter into heaven, unless we reconcile with God personally. This is done through the sacrament of reconciliation, where grace is restored through our confession, contrition, repentance and pennance. So, when we follow the teachings of Christ and do God’s will, we have merit. When we fail to do so, we are condemned. This is the meaning of judgment. If we end our lives in the state of Grace, we will be rewarded with eternal life. If not, we will be condemned.

If there are no ramifications for our actions, then judgment is actually meaningless and justice is not served, hence the fatal flaw in the concept of Once saved, always saved

 

[broski234]

mmmcounts:
I’m surprised to see you write that you know more about the Catholic positions than the Catholics on this board.

The problem is that you don’t understand justification in the same way that Catholics do. We use Justification to mean that Jesus has opened up the doors of heaven to us. This was done without any merit on our part and is a pure gift. We then have to go through that door by demonstrating faith through good works. This part has merit. If I have it right, when you think of justification, you think of it as entailing full entry into eternal life, hence your disconnect on the Catholic meaning.

Your other comment also is a product of this misunderstanding of the Catholic concept of Justification:

So Jesus, through his passion, provided us with Justification, the ability to get to heaven. This was a gift, completely devoid of any merit on our part, results in sanctifying grace when we are baptized into his church. We must lead lives of faith and love to maintain this grace, which is sufficient for our salvation. If we fail to do so and sin, we lose this grace and will no longer be allowed to enter into heaven, unless we reconcile with God personally. This is done through the sacrament of reconciliation, where grace is restored through our confession, contrition, repentance and pennance. So, when we follow the teachings of Christ and do God’s will, we have merit. When we fail to do so, we are condemned. This is the meaning of judgment. If we end our lives in the state of Grace, we will be rewarded with eternal life. If not, we will be condemned.

If there are no ramifications for our actions, then judgment is actually meaningless and justice is not served, hence the fatal flaw in the concept of Once saved, always saved

Well said:thumbsup:

 

[mlchance]

You have to pick one.

No, I don’t, especially not if any of the choices offered are the right one.

But setting up false dilemmas are a convenient way from actually addressing what the Church and Scripture really teach.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[benedictus2]

Quote:
10All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” 11Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, “The righteous will live by faith.” 12The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, “The man who does these things will live by them.” 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.” 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

But once again, you fail to answer my question of what perfection means. This verse does not explain what perfection means. It is about justification.

So once again, what does it mean to be made perfect by Christ? Is there a certain quality or attribute that shows we have been made perfect?

Are you trying to say with this verse that to be made perfect equals to be justified equals to be saved?

I said Jesus does not tell the rich man that adherence to the commandments will lead to eternal life (and Galatians 3 agrees with that statement). Now you say…

Actually He does. When the man asks what he must do Jesus answers with the commandments. So straight from his mouth is the answer that we must follow the commandments to gain eternal life. If he did not mean it, he would not have said it. Jesus does not waste words.

Actually Jesus does not say we must follow the commandments to gain eternal life. He says “You know the commandments” and lists them.

But mmmcounts, when the guy asked what he must do to gain eternal life and Jesus says you know the commandments, Jesus is saying exactly that. That if you follow the commandments, you will gain eternal life. If this is not what it means then you are making Jesus out to be someone who does not understand questions so does not know how to answer.

Think about it, why would he say “you know the commandment” when the question was “how do I gain eternal life” if he did not mean that to be the answer to the man’s question.

If you asked me “what do I do to clean the carpet” and i said " you know the vacuum?" would you think that I am not saying to you clean it with a vacuum?

The young man says he has kept them all, which has to be a lie…only Jesus is sinless. Jesus brought this up because the man was looking for a way to gain eternal life through his own actions- specifically, by his obedience to the law. He had done this to his own satisfaction, but Jesus makes it clear that this isn’t how eternal life is gained.

That is right, he may have been adhering to the law in a legalistic manner. What Christ desires is a following of the law from the heart not mere legalism. He does not however, negate the necessity of following the law to gain salvation.

Are you suggesting that close adherence to the law is a prerequisite for salvation?

Yes. You cannot be saved if you break any of God’s commandments knowingly and deliberately and fail to repent before you die. Do you honestly think that if you break the first commandment and worshipped other gods you will still be saved?

At the heart of Christ’s mission is the Ten Commandments, that we will follow it with our hearts.

You must remember that Christ did not come to abolish the law. How can He? They are His Father’s laws.

1 John 2: 3-6
**The way we may be sure 2 that we know him is to keep his command ments. Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him. ****But whoever keeps his word, the love of God is truly perfected in him. This is the way we may know that we are in union with him: whoever claims to abide in him ought to live (just) as he lived. **

Do you know why you want to disregard the importance of keeping the commandments? Because of your belief that we are saved by faith alone. But your definition of faith is a rather narrow defintion of faith.

 

[benedictus2]

Look at Zaccheus. He didn’t keep the law at all until he met Jesus. He had not kept the law since he was a boy, and yet salvation came to his house that day because he “believed in” Jesus in a** life-changing manner.** (YES he did good things after that, and YES there was a dramatic change in his life- but that was EVIDENCE of his saving faith in Jesus AFTER THE FACT- not a a prerequisite).

And that is the whole point. If you believe in Jesus (as some do) but your life does not change then your belief is barren. You will be one of those who calls Him Lord Lord but does not do the Will of His Father.
How do we know the Fathers’s Will? The first stop is the decalogue.
And what did this “life changing manner” consist of? It is the following of the Ten Commandments.
Believing in Jesus without following the Ten Commandments is not believing in Jesus at all. As John says, the only way you can really say you know Jesus is if you follow His commandments.

He knew he could not rely on himself for eternal life (obvious for him- he was scum). The rich young ruler thought he could- he was a “very good boy,” keeping the law since birth. Jesus knew that’s what he had in mind for salvation, and quickly made it clear that it wouldn’t be enough. No one is saved by adherence to the law. Jesus knew that. That’s why He came to this planet in the first place- to fulfill the law that can’t justify anyone before God.

But Christ did not say it would not be enough. Nowhere in that pasage does He say it is not enough.

If you go to a parallel account in Mark, it is written that “**Jesus looked at him and loved him”. **What Jesus says to him after (sell your possesions…) is actually an invitation to a deeper relationship with Him. Not merely just to want to be saved because this desire is still pretty much about I/Me/Myself. It is still not about Jesus. But with this next command he is saying “following me is what is important” and when you truly follow Jesus, it is no longer about just being saved, but about making Jesus ALL in ALL for you.

As the act of contritioin goes: we are sorry for our sins not because we fear hell or dread the loss of heaven but because we have offended God. We want to be in heaven because we love Jesus and not just because we are afraid of being in hell. Heaven is only heaven because He is there.

With this “additional” requirement, he turns self-seeking (I want to be saved) to God-seeking (I want to follow Jesus).

This is the invitation that he gave to his disciples. Those who left everything to follow him because of Himself. And he is issuing this same invitation to this man.

And he is issuing the same invitation to us.

And many people have been able to respond to this call (St Francis of Assisi comes to mind).with all their heart.

I didn’t say it was a negation of the commandments. Jesus did not come to destroy the Law but to fulfill it.

You say that here. But in the previous post, you said Jesus said the OPPOSITE. To say that Jesus said the OPPOSITE of the statement " adherence to the law will not save you" is to say that “adherence to the the law will NOT save you.” But Jesus did nothing of the sort.
The law by itself will not save you. It is the true following of the Law from the heart that will because in following the law, we are following the will of God. And as Christ himself said, it is those who do the will of the Father who will enter the kingdom of God, not those who call Him Lord, Lord.

Take a look at Hebrews 11. Go through the Hall of Faith and admire all the good things that the great people of faith did. They are declared righteous for their faith. But read those last two verses. Tell me what you think of those.

Yes, that is true. But first you need to define what faith here means. Is it a simple believing in Christ or does it consist in discipleship. Does it mean as John said that to know Him means to follow His commands.

It’s easier to just do this. carm.org/questions/faithorworks.htm

I will check out this link later and give you my comments.

 

[benedictus2]

No, I don’t. We are judged by our works. We are saved by grace through faith, not of works. Can I make this any more clear?

You are creating a false dichotomy here.

If we are judged by our works and are found wanting, will we still be saved?

If we are found to have been avaricious, lustful, idolatrous, proud, adulterous, murderous but we say we believe in Jesus will we still be saved?

Your understanding of the way grace works is very strange. I think you subscribe to the salvation theory that how we are saved is by imputation of Christ’s righteouness i.e, we are rotten through and through but somehow we are covered with Christ’s righteousness so we are allowed past the pearly gates.

I think this is where our difference lies.

Here is our salvation scenario.
Heaven is point B, we are in point A. To get from point A to B you need to go down Highway C. Problem is we are all bruised and battered with broken bones all over.

Your idea of salvation (I think, so correct me if I am wrong) is like this: Jesus clothes you in a mechanized armour that somehow transports you to point B. Inside you are still bruised, broken and battered but you get to point B because of this mechanized armour.

Our version is like this. Christ comes as a physician and heals all our wounds, makes right the broken bones, so that we ourselves can walk Highway C with Him to His Father’s house.

To be saved by grace means that all this ministering by Jesus is free and totally unmeritted. Nothing we did made Him minister to us. He did this out of sheer love for us. But this grace works in such a way that it heals our egoism and self-centredness and enables us to love others as He loves us.

 

[mmmcounts]

If we fail to do so and sin, we lose this grace and will no longer be allowed to enter into heaven, unless we reconcile with God personally.

More specifically, Catholics make a distinction between “mortal” and “venial” sins. Mortal sins are best understood as the types that can only be committed in the sense of a willful rejection of this grace, and once this type of sin is committed there is no coming back. If you were talking about venial sin, you don’t lose this grace. If it’s a mortal sin, you do but you can’t be reconciled. If you were talking about both types, it’s even more screwed up. The way you presented it is problematic on several levels, including the level at which it fails to accurately present RCC doctrine.

If there are no ramifications for our actions, then judgment is actually meaningless and justice is not served

That’s what you said. And this is how it really is.

When Catholics affirm the “meritorious” character of good works, they wish to say that, according to the biblical witness, a reward in heaven is promised to these works.

Sometimes, I guess you really wish to say something but it just doesn’t come out right. For Christians, the Judgment Seat of Christ involves rewards according to the quality of their works, not punishment. For people who aren’t Christians, they don’t do that judgment at all. They get the Great White Throne Judgment.

The Judgment Seat of Christ does not include punishment of sin- Jesus already bore that punishment, and a second punishment would be unjust. And that was your goal in the beginning- make sure justice is served. There are ramifications, but they involve testing the quality of a believer’s works and rewarding them accordingly. Look at John 5:24. Whoever hears and believes receives eternal life. Such a person will not come into judgment/condemnation (depending on translation), but has passed from death to life. Again, look at John 3:17. God did not send Jesus into the world to condemn, but to save. Then in verse 18 it says this: He who believes is not condemned. He who does not believe stands condemned already.
You know, this leads me to conclude that the Judgment Seat of Christ does not include condemnation. I think that’s reasonable.

Obviously, none of those whose names are not found in the Book of Life will be at the Judgment Seat. Theirs is the Great White Throne judgment, and this is where punishment happens without any rewards. You want justice (punishment) to be served? You want to see people bear the ramifications for their sinful actions? This is where it happens. And the wage is death. Justice was served (for the believer) at the cross, and the whole point of that was so that Jesus would suffer the ramifications of sin (death) in our place. Do you know of any other eternal ramifications for sin?

mmmcounts:
I’m surprised to see you write that you know more about the Catholic positions than the Catholics on this board.

Hey, you’re the one who said you have to do good works in order to be saved. You going to retract that comment or not? If not, I don’t have to stand by what I said- you do it for me.

If I have it right, when you think of justification, you think of it as entailing full entry into eternal life

That’s right. I do. John 5:24 says so, too. Why do you have a problem with full entry? Remember that entry into eternal life is not something that we cause to happen. God causes it to happen. We ask Him to make it happen because we can’t do it on our own. When you got saved (if that ever happened), did you ask for partial entry? Why would you do that? What does that look like, anyway?

Consider how salvation is also called being born again. Did you get stuck somewhere in the birth canal? If that’s where you are, I’d imagine your “growth” would be a little awkward as you progress through life. How can you do anything from such a position?

Here’s how we should regard rebirth: We are born again. We completely exit the uterus. We do good works after birth, and they stand as evidence of the reality that we were in fact born prior to that. These works also get rewarded later at the Judgment. This process of sanctification includes a deepening relationship with God and is something that everyone does after their rebirth, but it is not in any way another rebirth or the same birth. It’s simply not a birth. It’s growth that comes after birth. Finally, after a period of time, this reborn person goes to live in the immediate presence of God forever, right after I receive a new body and rewards for doing the good works that stood up to the test. Once again, this is not another process of birth. The rebirth was completed long before this point, and now it’s time to do something different. Instead of being born again, I receive a new body and live with God for eternity.

If you think its entirely unfair of me to characterize your opposition to “complete entry” as something comparable to a half-born baby, please do your best to explain your understanding of Catholic salvation in terms of being born again. Start with a fetus floating in a uterus of sin. (Hey, you might as well have a little bit of fun with this). I can’t wait to see how this fetus has managed to be born in the past, is in the midst of being born right now, and on its way to being born in the future. Also explain where you, as a metaphorical fetus, are right now. Have you been born again? Or are you stuck in the birth canal with part of your head sticking out while attempting to be sanctified from this position? Are you beginning to realize how ridiculous this sounds?

When you explain, make sure you do it in terms of a fetus being born. I was able to do it rather easily. I thought it was kind of fun. Can you do the same?

 

[benedictus2]

More specifically, Catholics make a distinction between “mortal” and “venial” sins. Mortal sins are best understood as the types that can only be committed in the sense of a willful rejection of this grace, and once this type of sin is committed there is no coming back.

That is wrong. Mortal sins are sins of a grave nature and are commited willfully with full knowlege.
When this sin is committed there is still “a coming back” as you put it, there is still reconciliation so long as you are alive. So there is a chance to repent of it this side eternity. If you die unrepentant of this sin, then there is “no coming back”.

If you were talking about venial sin, you don’t lose this grace. If it’s a mortal sin, you do but you can’t be reconciled.

As mentioned above, you can be reconciled in this life after commiting a mortal sin so long as you repent.

If you were talking about both types, it’s even more screwed up. The way you presented it is problematic on several levels, including the level at which it fails to accurately present RCC doctrine.

As shown above there is nothiing problematic about this doctrine.

That’s what you said. And this is how it really is.

When Catholics affirm the “meritorious” character of good works, they wish to say that, according to the biblical witness, a reward in heaven is promised to these works.

Wrong again. You are putting words into our mouths because that is NOT WHAT WE MEAN AT ALL.

When we affirm the “meritorious” character of good works, a reward is NOT PROMISED TO THIS GOOD WORKS. Good works or to put it plainly the following of the commandments of God is the result of our being made perfect. We do good works not so we can enter heaven but because this is what God WILLS.

It would be like if your loving father were to ask you to look after your siblings and clean the house, you do this not so your father can give you your allowance but because you love your father and you know it will please your father if you do this.

Sometimes, I guess you really wish to say something but it just doesn’t come out right. For Christians, the Judgment Seat of Christ involves rewards according to the quality of their works, not punishment.

And where is that written in the Bible. You say rewards - plural. You totally miss the point that there is only ONE REWARD. And that is UNION WITH GOD. Salvation is not like being given candy if you have been a good boy and the more good deeds you do the more candy you will get.

For people who aren’t Christians, they don’t do that judgment at all. They get the Great White Throne Judgment.

Can you cite a Biblical passage to support that.

The Judgment Seat of Christ does not include punishment of sin- Jesus already bore that punishment,

So your idea of Christ’s atonement is of a divine child abuse? We sinned against God, but instead of punishing us, He punished Christ?

Hey, you’re the one who said you have to do good works in order to be saved. You going to retract that comment or not? If not, I don’t have to stand by what I said- you do it for me.

Actually it is Christ who said it. Read Matthew 25:31-46. You have an issue with Christ’s words?

Consider how salvation is also called being born again.

Only by protestants especially those who believe in OSAS. If you are “born again” and commit a mortal sin before dying, then being born again does not mean being saved.

You have your terminologies all confused.

 

[mmmcounts]

Jesus is saying exactly that. That if you follow the commandments, you will gain eternal life. If this is not what it means then you are making Jesus out to be someone who does not understand questions so does not know how to answer.

Think about it, why would he say “you know the commandment” when the question was “how do I gain eternal life” if he did not mean that to be the answer to the man’s question.

Are you familiar with the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant? The rich young ruler stood at a crossroads between the two. Under the Old Covenant, it was all about adherence to the law and animal sacrifice. That’s what the rich young ruler had grown up with, but in order to be saved by Jesus, he had to do something different. Jesus talked to him about adherence to the law because of the Old Covenant. One notable difference between you and the rich young ruler is that you were never under the Old Covenant. So you don’t have to make that kind of transition.

I said “Are you suggesting that close adherence to the law is a prerequisite for salvation?”
You said…

You cannot be saved if you break any of God’s commandments knowingly and deliberately and fail to repent before you die.

I’m saved right now. I don’t have to wait until I die to be saved. I have eternal life. I have crossed over from death to life.

 

[benedictus2]

Are you familiar with the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant? The rich young ruler stood at a crossroads between the two. Under the Old Covenant, it was all about adherence to the law and animal sacrifice. That’s what the rich young ruler had grown up with, but in order to be saved by Jesus, he had to do something different. Jesus talked to him about adherence to the law because of the Old Covenant. One notable difference between you and the rich young ruler is that you were never under the Old Covenant. So you don’t have to make that kind of transition.

But it is NOT about the Old and New Covennant because the New Covenant has not been established yet. Jesus has yet to die before the New Covenant could come about so your interpretation of this is wrong.

Jesus here is telling him to follow the Ten Commandments. His Father’s commandments. And when the guy said he has done this, Jesus loved him. He could really see in him someone who really wanted to be at rights with God. And that is why He poses the next invitatation to him to sell all His posessions. Because at the bottom of it all, even though he wants to follow God, his possession still matter to him very much and Jesus is saying get rid of all that because if you follow me you will have everything and more besides.

I’m saved right now. I don’t have to wait until I die to be saved.

But what exactly do you mean by “I am saved right now?”

I have eternal life. I have crossed over from death to life.

You are deluding yourself then. You use these terminologies so loosely I don’t think you even have a clear picture of them in your head.

How you can you say you have eternal life and have crossed over from death to life when you are still here on earth. You are still on this side of eternity.

Your idea of salvation is very vague.

I think you need to clarify first a few things:
When you say you are saved, what are you saved from?
What are you saved for?
How are you saved?

I can’t remember now if this is the thread where I posed this question.

Is salvation for you a one time event where you get cleaned up and a teflon coating is applied to your soul so that no grime sticks and your sin just slide off?

 

[1holycatholic]

I’m saved right now. I don’t have to wait until I die to be saved. I have eternal life. I have crossed over from death to life.

http://www.peoriasportsonline.com/wp-content/themes/mimbo2.2/images/referee.jpg
Foul - Use of non-Christian Doctrine.

Why can’t I find your beliefs in the writings of the early Christians, say the first 250 years?

 

[mmmcounts]

When this sin is committed there is still “a coming back” as you put it, there is still reconciliation so long as you are alive. So there is a chance to repent of it this side eternity.

If you read Hebrews 6 and decide it refers to people who have committed a mortal sin, it does say it is impossible for them to be brought back to repentance. I think Catholics generally interpret that as talking about mortal sin. Correct me if I’m wrong.

SIZE=4]When we affirm the “meritorious” character of good works, a reward is NOT PROMISED TO THIS GOOD WORKS. Good works or to put it plainly the following of the commandments of God is the result of our being made perfect. We do good works not so we can enter heaven but because this is what God WILLS.

And where is that written in the Bible. You say rewards - plural. You totally miss the point that there is only ONE REWARD. And that is UNION WITH GOD. Salvation is not like being given candy if you have been a good boy and the more good deeds you do the more candy you will get.

There actually are rewards given at the Judgment Seat of Christ to those who are saved based on the character of their works. To be at this Judgment, you have to be saved in the first place. But once you’re there, rewards (not salvation, given out like candy or otherwise) are given for works. None of these rewards involve salvation- that’s already been given. 1 Corinthians 3 talks about this.

But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

Even those who “suffer loss” will be saved (“as by fire” in some translations). See if you can spot the difference in Revelation 20.

11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

We can see from this that there’s more than one book used at this Judgment. Other books are used to judge the condemned by their works, but their absence from the Book of Life is what causes them to have a “second death.” Also read 2 Corinthians 5, starting from the beginning. Ask yourself who “we” refers to throughout the first half of the chapter. It comes up a lot and gives you tons of clues.

I hope that explanation will help you out in the future as you consider the meritorious nature of good works.

the idea of Christ’s atonement is of a divine child abuse? We sinned against God, but instead of punishing us, He punished Christ?

You’re a Christian, right? Why would you have a problem with this? Read 1 Peter 2:24 and 3:18 and get back to me. I’m sure you’re aware of why Jesus died for us. He died for our sins in order that He could suffer the wages of sin (death) instead of us. Would you like to join Fausto Paolo Sozzini in your criticism of this idea? You should probably get a little more acquainted with his entire body of work first. He’s the source of the “divine child abuse” moniker. Something you should know about him, though, is that he was an anti-Trinitarian who, among other things, did not believe Jesus was God. That kind of breaks the analogy, wherein he states that “There is nothing that conforms with justice about punishing the innocent and letting the guilty go free.” This only makes sense as long as Jesus is not God, however. Since Jesus is God, penal substitution involves God in the flesh bearing our sins in his body on the cross in our place. Does it make sense to you that this is only unjust if Jesus is not God, as Sozzini maintained? I’m pretty critical of these sorts of “loveless caricatures” that look something like “a sacrifice of an innocent victim to appease the wrath of an angry God regarding the crimes of others.” You see how that fails to acknowledge Jesus’ divinity as well as His love?

Read Matthew 25:31-46. You have an issue with Christ’s words?

No, I don’t. It’s quite true that some will go to heaven and some will go to hell. At the resurrection of the dead, some will go to life and some will go to judgment of the condemnation variety. The righteous will not stand in that judgment, though. However, Peter (who you call a Pope) tells us about how the works of the righteous will be judged (in this sense, not referring to condemnation) and for their works, they will receive reward or suffer loss. Those who receive reward will have much much reward in heaven (exactly what, I’m not sure). Those who suffer loss will be saved, but only as one escaping through flames. So do you have a problem with what the Bible says in one of the books written by the man you call the first Pope?

 

[mmmcounts]

Foul - Use of non-Christian Doctrine.

It’s certainly not non-Christian doctrine. I’m quoting Jesus. It may be non-Catholic doctrine, though. That’s entirely possible, based on your reaction.

“I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.”

I have eternal life and will not be condemned. I have crossed over from death to life. That’s what I said before, and you told me it was “Use of non-Christian Doctrine.” Would you like to retract that? If not, you could change your foul call to indicate that it is non-Catholic doctrine instead. I leave it up to you.

Why can’t I find your beliefs in the writings of the early Christians, say the first 250 years?

Have you told your parents you’re gay yet?

That may seem like an unrelated question, but it does have a thing or two in common with what you asked. I think you know what that is.