Regarding salvation, which of these three options do you think is most accurate?

[benedictus2]

1 Peter 3
21To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

Once again, merrely dumping Bible verses here will not let you off the hook. You have to explain how YOU understand those verses.

Notice I highlighted PUNISHED. So you see God as a divine child ABUSER?

 

[mmmcounts]

It says that by condeming sin we (the beneficiaries of His death) “no longer live according to our siinful nature”. But the whole point of my question is that even though we have been baptized we still sin, we still “live according to our sinful” nature.

We do not live according to our sinful nature. I affirm this. That does not mean we live sinlessly.

So here is the question again: Once you have been baptized and washed clean, will you never ever get unclean again by sinning? Simple yes or no.

In Romans 6, it talks about dying to our old selves and being baptized into Jesus death. In Romans 7, it talks about the results of this “death.”

1Do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to men who know the law—that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? 2For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. 3So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man. (This analogy shows how we, too, are released from the Law).
4So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, so that we bore fruit for death. 6But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

We have been released from the law and it no longer binds us.
And there’s more in Romans 8.
10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

This idea of “death” that keeps coming up means this: We have died to the Law and are no longer under it in the sense that it can no longer condemn us to Hell. The law cannot bind us in such a way because “the righteous requirements of the law” are “fully met in us” (Romans 8). Therefore, when you repetitively state that sin committed after salvation continues to stain us and keep us from being with God, you are talking nonsense. We are no longer under the law, which can only condemn. We were once, but we are no longer. So stop condemning.

So what is the effect of baptism on our soul if we still sin. THAT is what you need to explain.

Baptism by water is symbolic of being “baptized into Christ Jesus” and being “baptized into His death.” Romans 6:3.

Also because you have chopped up some parts of the Bible.

Actually, Protestants have the very same Old Testament that was preserved in the Jewish canon. The Church of Rome decided to add a few books to it. It was an ill-advised move.

 

[mmmcounts]

Every time we sin, WE ARE NOT IN CHRIST JESUS!!!

False.

 

[broski234]

False.

Christ doesn’t dwell where there is sin. That’s why we have the sacrament of confession. We ask for God’s forgiveness and we are reconciled to God. God hates sin, so when we sin, we are not in Christ Jesus. It’s plain and clear.

 

[benedictus2]

We do not live according to our sinful nature. I affirm this. That does not mean we live sinlessly.

But if we do not “live according to our sinful nature” how come we still sin? That is what you need to answer. If Christ is in us and Christ has conquered sin such that we no longer live according to our sinful nature, why do we still sin. Where is this sinning coming from?

Baptism by water is symbolic of being “baptized into Christ Jesus” and being “baptized into His death.” Romans 6:3.

What does it mean to be baptized into His death?

I am trying here to crystalize for you something which you keep quoting but which seems to me you fail to truly grasp that is why you keep falling back on the same old quotes without explaining them fully.

Actually, Protestants have the very same Old Testament that was preserved in the Jewish canon. The Church of Rome decided to add a few books to it. It was an ill-advised move.

The OT books were part of the Cannon from the very first time the Cannon was formed. The Jews do not determine what is canonical fro the Christian. The canon has been with us since the Council of Carthage in 397, that was 1100 years before the Protestant revolt.

 

[benedictus2]

Give me one example (with a link, please) of where the Church of Rome finds fault with the idea of substitutionary atonement.

But I did not say that I do not believe in substitutionary atonement. It is your explanation of substitutionary atonement that I have an issue with.

I think it will help you to understand the differences in our position if you read this article on justication

http://catholicdefense.googlepages.com/article.htm

 

[mmmcounts]

What law are you referring to? What does it mean to be released from the law?

The law is the Mosaic law. The only one the Bible ever talks about. These chapters are written to Jews to help them transition from the Old Covenant to the New.

1 Body is dead because of sin.
#2 The Father will give you life to your body through life in his Spirit who lives in you.

My question is: If you are still sinning based on on #1 You are still dead.

Everyone is still sinning. But some are dead in their sins while others are dead to sin and alive in Christ. Romans 6.

If the spirit will give lfe to you then that mean it’s presence means you will have died to sin already so once you have died to sin, sin in you is finito, you cannot commit it again. Are you following me here?

It does not mean we now live sinlessly (ie. sin is finito). It means we have died to the Law and are no longer under it in the sense that it can no longer condemn us to Hell.

What Law? The 10 Commandments? Are you trying to say here that we are no longer required to follow the 10 commandments.

Have you been reading any of this? Seriously. I covered this. But maybe you didn’t read those parts yet…I can tell you started posting replies less than 5 minutes after I put all this up here, so I know you didn’t take time to read it thoroughly.

That because we are no longer under this law we can break it to our hearts content and it does not matter?

What does the Bible say? Again, I covered this. If you want a commentary on all of Romans 6, 7, and 8, I can give it to you.
gospeltruth.net/walkinthespirit/witsrom8.htm

What does that mean “the righteous requirements of the law are fully met in us”?

Exactly that. What is unclear about that? The law is the Mosaic law. It cannot save; it can only condemn. It is impossible to live up to its righteous demands. Except…there was this guy named Jesus. Because of Him, that impossible standard is (fully) met in us. That means the law of Moses no longer condemns us (there is now no condemnation…Romans 8…remember?) The law that would have condemned us does not condemn us any longer because its requirements are fully met in us through Jesus. He’s the only one who could ever meet the full requirements of the law, and He’s nice enough to let it count for us, too.

So if you die after murdering someone, because you have been “saved” when you were “born again” you will go to heaven? And don’t say this is a stupid question because it follows perfectly from your post.

Why do you put the words saved and born again in quotes? They appear in the Bible plenty of times. If a person murders someone in cold blood and feels no remorse (that is, chastisement and guilt from the Holy Spirit), that person clearly was not saved in the first place (obviously no Holy Spirit dwelling there). If a Christian murders someone, they will feel that intense chastisement and guilt from the Holy Spirit that will lead to immediate recognition of sin, confession, repentance, and appropriate attempts to make amends. (Note that confession does not require the presence of a priest). That’s how you know if the murderer was a Christian or not.

But it is not the law that will condemn us. It is our sins.

Same thing. We know what sin is because of the law. Romans 3:20- by the law is the knowledge of sin.
1 John 3:4- Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

I have said before that the whole concept of salvation and justification is very nebulous in your head.

And you were dead wrong.

 

[paul_c]

The law is the Mosaic law. The only one the Bible ever talks about. These chapters are written to Jews to help them transition from the Old Covenant to the New.

Everyone is still sinning. But some are dead in their sins while others are dead to sin and alive in Christ. Romans 6.

It does not mean we now live sinlessly (ie. sin is finito). It means we have died to the Law and are no longer under it in the sense that it can no longer condemn us to Hell.

Have you been reading any of this? Seriously. I covered this. But maybe you didn’t read those parts yet…I can tell you started posting replies less than 5 minutes after I put all this up here, so I know you didn’t take time to read it thoroughly.

What does the Bible say? Again, I covered this. If you want a commentary on all of Romans 6, 7, and 8, I can give it to you.
gospeltruth.net/walkinthespirit/witsrom8.htm

Exactly that. What is unclear about that? The law is the Mosaic law. It cannot save; it can only condemn. It is impossible to live up to its righteous demands. Except…there was this guy named Jesus. Because of Him, that impossible standard is (fully) met in us. That means the law of Moses no longer condemns us (there is now no condemnation…Romans 8…remember?) The law that would have condemned us does not condemn us any longer because its requirements are fully met in us through Jesus. He’s the only one who could ever meet the full requirements of the law, and He’s nice enough to let it count for us, too.

Why do you put the words saved and born again in quotes? They appear in the Bible plenty of times. If a person murders someone in cold blood and feels no remorse (that is, chastisement and guilt from the Holy Spirit), that person clearly was not saved in the first place (obviously no Holy Spirit dwelling there). If a Christian murders someone, they will feel that intense chastisement and guilt from the Holy Spirit that will lead to immediate recognition of sin, confession, repentance, and appropriate attempts to make amends. (Note that confession does not require the presence of a priest). That’s how you know if the murderer was a Christian or not.

Same thing. We know what sin is because of the law. Romans 3:20- by the law is the knowledge of sin.
1 John 3:4- Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

And you were dead wrong.

mmmcounts, why do you always start quoting Romans in Chapters 5 and 6, skipping over Chapter 2 which says:

Th

erefore, you are without excuse, every one of you who passes judgment. For by the standard by which you judge another you condemn yourself, since you, the judge, do the very same things.
2
We know that the judgment of God on those who do such things is true.
3
Do you suppose, then, you who judge those who engage in such things and yet do them yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?
4
Or do you hold his priceless kindness, forbearance, and patience in low esteem, unaware that the kindness of God would lead you to repentance?
5
By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6
who will repay everyone according to his works:
7
eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8
but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.

and a little later in the passage he says:

15 They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them
16
on the day when, according to my gospel, **God will judge people’s hidden works through Christ Jesus. **

As you can see, In Romans, man is judged based on his works.

 

[mmmcounts]

your explanation of substitutionary atonement that I have an issue with.
I think it will help you to understand the differences in our position if you read this article on justication
http://catholicdefense.googlepages.com/article.htm

Here’s what it says the Catholic view is on Jesus being punished. Who made this thing anyway? Does it carry any more authority from the Roman Catholic Church than you do? Just curious who this Nick E. character might be. No credentials, just part of a name. Anyway…

Jesus was innocent, He was the spotless Lamb from start to finish, He never deserved nor could He receive a "punishment.”

If crucifixion isn’t a punishment, I don’t know what is. Here’s that verse from Isaiah again.

Isaiah 53:5
But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.

Jesus did not deserve a punishment. But he sure as heck received one. You realize this verse is talking about Jesus, right? And do you know why he received this punishment?

10 But it was the Lord’s good plan to crush him
and cause him grief.
Yet when his life is made an offering for sin,
he will have many descendants.
He will enjoy a long life,
and the Lord’s good plan will prosper in his hands.
11 When he sees all that is accomplished by his anguish,
he will be satisfied.
And because of his experience,
my righteous servant will make it possible
for many to be counted righteous,
for he will bear all their sins.

It’s true that penal substitution is a model of substitutionary atonement that, taken as a whole, is more closely associated with the Reformed/Evangelical/Protestant crowd. However, no one of any significance in the Catholic church really opposes this. The main source of opposition is from a man named Faustus Socinus, an anti-Trinitarian who denied Jesus’ deity, and also the source of the “divine child abuse” accusation. Our friend Nick E. probably didn’t know that; he gives a ringing endorsement of the phrase. I probably won’t read through the whole thing, but I want you to know it makes me laugh when I see what he does with Abraham. That’s the only thing I looked at so far besides the “divine child abuse” section.

I did a couple of searches to see what Catholics of any importance have to say about this. When I searched for “divine child abuse” along with the word “catholic,” I turned up some pages about Catholic priests abusing children sexually. I also got a Lutheran article claiming that the second edition of the Catechism of the Catholic Church favors the same link between Is. 53 and Jesus that I do (along with Luther in his Commentary on Isaiah 53). I also found the phrase linked to some heretical theology that includes the perspective of God as a “Goddess, the Lady and Mother.” I guess some within the movement of liberal feminist theology are a bit partial to our boy Faustus as well.
Lastly, on a different thread, some guy named “Odell” refers to the phrase. But you can tell he’s going off the same page you linked me too. He even gives the same examples as our mystery man Nick E., including the one about the mother who makes dinner for Dad and gets him to let the kids off easy. Thing is, Nick E. doesn’t tell us anything about himself or cite anything at all, so I don’t know where he’s getting his stuff from- aside from his personal opinions. He could be a guy just like you who’s spent a long time on religious forums gathering all the quotes he can find against the ones he calls his enemies (although he couldn’t be bothered to cite any sources, apparently). But hey, he wrote a lot of stuff and it mostly matches up with what you believe, so you quote it verbatim, just like Odell. So did you get the link from Odell? Did he get it from you? Did you arrive at it independently? What’s the deal here?

 

[benedictus2]

The law is the Mosaic law. The only one the Bible ever talks about. These chapters are written to Jews to help them transition from the Old Covenant to the New.

The major part of Mosaic Law is the Ten Commandments. When you say we are released from this law, what does that mean. Does it mean we are no longer hold accountable when we violate these laws?

Everyone is still sinning. But some are dead in their sins while others are dead to sin and alive in Christ. Romans 6.

But that does not make sense. If you are alive in Christ and DEAD TO SIN, How can you still be sinning?

It does not mean we now live sinlessly (ie. sin is finito). It means we have died to the Law and are no longer under it in the sense that it can no longer condemn us to Hell.

But the law cannot condemn you to Hell. Only God can condemn you not the law.
So once again you skirt the issue. If YOU BREAK THE LAW (i.e., THE TEN COMMANDEMENTS) YOU SIN. PLAIN AND SIMPLE.
Are you saying here that even if you break any of the Ten Commandments and you die in this sin you will not be condemned to hell? You need to clarify your position on that one.

Have you been reading any of this? Seriously. I covered this. But maybe you didn’t read those parts yet…I can tell you started posting replies less than 5 minutes after I put all this up here, so I know you didn’t take time to read it thoroughly.

Yes, I read your post. But all you do is post the verse without explaining so I have to keep repeating myself. Romans 6 and 8 you posted twice without explanation. You keep using the same terminology that is in the verse itself when what you need to de is define what these terms mean.
Even here again, you still have not answered the question. If as you said above **“we have died to the law”, **DOES THIS MEAN WE ARE NO LONGER REQUIRED TO FOLLOW THE LAW, THETEN COMMANDMENTS?

What does the Bible say? Again, I covered this. If you want a commentary on all of Romans 6, 7, and 8, I can give it to you.

http://www.gospeltruth.net/walkinthespirit/witsrom8.htm

No I do not want a commentary on Romans. I want YOU to say how YOU understand Romans. It is YOUR UNDERSTANDING OR NON-UNDERSTANDING OF IT that I am questioning.

 

[benedictus2]

Exactly that. What is unclear about that? The law is the Mosaic law. It cannot save; it can only condemn.

So the Ten Commandments was given to us by God to condemn us?

It is impossible to live up to its righteous demands.

So before Christ came, the Jews were never able to obey these laws? Never able to live up to the law at all? God purposely gave them a law that they can never live up to?

Except…there was this guy named Jesus. Because of Him, that impossible standard is (fully) met in us.

I think you have no idea what you mean by what you have just written**. The question is how is this impossible standard now fully met in us**? Does it mean that now, with Christ, we are able to fully live up to the requirements of th law?
If that is so, then how come, Christians still routinely break the Ten Commandments? Surely it should be easy now for them to live up to it?
As a matter of fact, protestants do not only break the law, they have also implicitly said that adultery is okay by allowing divorce.

That means the law of Moses no longer condemns us (there is now no condemnation…Romans 8…remember?) The law that would have condemned us does not condemn us any longer because its requirements are fully met in us through Jesus. He’s the only one who could ever meet the full requirements of the law, and He’s nice enough to let it count for us, too.

But the Ten Commandments was never meant to condemn us.

You are painting such an awful picture of God the Father here as someone who has set out this law just so He can condemn us with them.

Why do you put the words saved and born again in quotes? They appear in the Bible plenty of times.

Yes it is in the Bible but the experience you call being “born again” is not what the Bible speaks of. Yours is a man made doctrine.

If a person murders someone in cold blood and feels no remorse (that is, chastisement and guilt from the Holy Spirit), that person clearly was not saved in the first place (obviously no Holy Spirit dwelling there).

If you go down this track of reasoning, you are basically saying that only Christians are able to feel remorse after murdering someone?

Did not Paul say that God has written His law into all our hearts?

Also, what happens to the assurance of salvation now? I thought you said that once you have been born again you are assured of salvation. Yet now it seems you are not because now you have this big question hanging over your head, were you really born again or not.

Do you now see how untenable your position is with regards assurance of salvation just going by your posts alone?

If a Christian murders someone, they will feel that intense chastisement and guilt from the Holy Spirit that will lead to immediate recognition of sin, confession, repentance, and appropriate attempts to make amends. (Note that confession does not require the presence of a priest). That’s how you know if the murderer was a Christian or not.

But the question remains: What happens if they die while in the act of commiting the murder or before they could even repent? Are you then going to say again that they were never saved in the first place?

Same thing. We know what sin is because of the law. Romans 3:20- by the law is the knowledge of sin.

So you are saying here that if you murder, but you do not know that it is against the law then you have not committed a sin so therefore you will not be condemened?

That actually makes some sense in a way.
Ignorance as a mitigating circumstance.

And you were dead wrong.

And I am alive right AS THE INCONSISTENCIES IN YOUR POSTS ABOVE HAVE PROVED.

If you actually try to understand **the whole of Scripture as regards what it says about salvation **rather than just focusing on Romans you will get closer to the truth.

Do you know how you do that? Try to concretize the passages you are citing and think how it applies in real life. As I have said before, employ rational though processes.

 

[mmmcounts]

So the Ten Commandments was given to us by God to condemn us?

Back to Romans 7.
7What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “Do not covet.” 8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.

The commandment was intended to bring life, but it actually brought death. Is that adequate interpretation for you?

So before Christ came, the Jews were never able to obey these laws? Never able to live up to the law at all?

That’s right. Even the ones declared righteous because of their faith. Check out the Hall of Faith in Hebrews 11. It says this of them in verse 13: “All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance.”
Then at the end of the chapter:
39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

James 2:10 tells us whoever keeps the whole law but stumbles in one point is a lawbreaker and guilty of the whole thing. Yes, everyone is a lawbreaker. Except Jesus. Here’s Eph. 2:
1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.

The question is how is this impossible standard now fully met in us?

Only through Jesus. Not through ourselves. Listen carefully:
“Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior; that being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.” Titus 3:5-7.
So to answer your question, how is it done? The answer is right in front of you. It is done according to God’s mercy (not our works of righteousness), and it is done by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost. This justifies us and makes us heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Simple enough. You might want to memorize those verses.

If that is so, then how come, Christians still routinely break the Ten Commandments? Surely it should be easy now for them to live up to it?

Christians still break the Ten Commandments because they are sinners. Where oh where does the Bible say a believer, once saved, will stop sinning and never sin again? Oh, that’s right. It doesn’t. That’s you saying that, for no apparent reason. It sounds silly. You should stop.

But the Ten Commandments was never meant to condemn us.

True enough. Well, kind of. But in the end, that is what the Law did. That much is clear.

the experience you call being “born again” is not what the Bible speaks of. Yours is a man made doctrine.

The experience of being “born again” is something Jesus speaks of to Nicodemus, and he says you must be born again. I’m all about Sola Scriptura, so whatever comes out of that can only be God-made doctrine. No prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s “private interpretation,” remember? That means none of it is man-made. Who are you to tell someone their doctrine is man-made, anyway? You’re a freaking Catholic.

If you go down this track of reasoning, you are basically saying that only Christians are able to feel remorse after murdering someone?

No. Don’t be an idiot about this.

Do you now see how untenable your position is with regards assurance of salvation just going by your posts alone?

No. And most of the questions you’ve submitted are waaayyy sub-par. You’re not as clever as you think, Ben.

But the question remains: What happens if they die while in the act of commiting the murder or before they could even repent?

Was the person one of God’s elect or not? Let’s take Dietrich Bonhoeffer as an example. Imagine that he’d succeeded in killing Hitler, and the very same explosion that kills Hitler kills him, too. Bonhoeffer was one of God’s elect, so he would have been ok. Btw, his confession need not have been auricular confession. I guarantee it would not have been.

And I am alive right

See, that’s just embarrassing. You’re trying way too hard to deny everything I say. That’s the main reason for your insistence that I stop quoting so much of the Bible. You weren’t getting enough opportunities to disagree with me.

 

[paul_c]

mmmcounts,
Read Matthew 19: 16-19:
Now someone approached him and said, “Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?” He answered him, “Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” He asked him, “Which ones?” And Jesus replied, " ‘You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness; honor your father and your mother’; and ‘you shall love your neighbor as yourself.’"
So clearly interpreting Romans 7 to say that the commandments bring death is in oppositon to Jesus’s clear teaching in Matthew.
In fact in Romans 2: 12-13, Paul says:
All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it. For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified. Notice, that God will justify those that follow the law, whether they acknowledge it or not.

The correct interpretation of scriptures for Salvation begins with Baptism. Man is initially justified by Grace through faith with Baptism in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, This is the cleansing that Jesus calls out in John 3:5:
Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit
If you want more confirmation that Jesus acknowledged Baptism , note John 4:1-2:
Now when Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John (although Jesus himself was not baptizing, just his disciples)
and recognize that both Jesus and Paul were baptized prior to the start of their ministries.

Following Baptism, man must stay in the state of Grace by loving both God and neighbor (the summation of the Commandments). We’ve already shown this from scripture above. If man falters and sins, he is lost unless he becomes reconciled to God through the sacrament of Reconciliation. Recognize that Jesus gave the Apostles the right to forgive Sins in John 20: 20-23
When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side.3 The disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord. (Jesus) said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained

So even if you are Sola Scriptura, you can find the path to heaven in the words of Scripture. You just need the insight from sacred tradition to put it together for you so it can be understood.

 

[benedictus2]

Back to Romans 7.
7What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, “Do not covet.” 8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.

The commandment was intended to bring life, but it actually brought death. Is that adequate interpretation for you?

But that does not answer the question I posed.

Here it is again: Are you saying that God gave us the law to condemn us?

No use quoting Romans 7 here because you have not even attempted to interpret what “the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death” means. You merely repeated the verse. You did not explain it.

So once again, did God give us the Ten Commandments to condemn us?

Also since you have already quoted the passage, HOW and WHY is it that “the commandment that was intended to bring life, bring death instead?”

That’s right. Even the ones declared righteous because of their faith. Check out the Hall of Faith in Hebrews 11. It says this of them in verse 13: "All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised;

they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance."
Please read my question again. I asked **whether Jews were able to obey the law **and you reply with this?

This — does ----- not------ answer ------ my -------question.

That “they lived by faith when they died” does not mean that they did not obey the law.

That “they did not receive the things promised” does not mean they did not obey the law.

So once again, before Christ, were the Jews never ever able to obey the law at all?

Did God give them a law that they could never obey?

Then at the end of the chapter:
39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that **only together with us would they be made perfect. **

Again**, “that only together with would they be made perfect”** does not mean that the Jews were never able to obey the law. You are almost right there but because you fail to do a proper exegesis of the verse, you keep missing the bulls eye.

 

[benedictus2]

So to answer your question, how is it done? The answer is right in front of you. It is done according to God’s mercy (not our works of righteousness), and it is done by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost. This justifies us and makes us heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Simple enough. You might want to memorize those verses.

Vunderbar!! You finally got there (well almost).

That, my dear is the answer (almost), but to extract that out of you, is like pulling teeth.

To expound on that a bit further, the renewal that the Holy Spirit gives us at Baptism and at some other points in our life is what enables us to meet the high requirements of the law. It is hard to love God above all and to love our neighbour as ourselves. But with the help of the Holy Spirit we are able to do that, because it is no longer us who will love God and others, but Christ in us.

However you keep forgetting that when St Paul says that Christ lives in Him, he also says that sin lives in him as well. So both Christ and sin reside in him and this is the reason why even Christians still sin. There will always be that struggle in us. We have a sinful nature but Christ in us enables us to conquer our sinful nature.

When it is easier to cheat on your wife, Christ in you helps you to be faithful.

When it is easier to lie, Christ in you helps you to tell the truth.

But the Christ in you does not always win, because God gave you** FREE WILL**. The Choice is still yours. Death or Life. Choose llfe.

So in a nutshell, although we have been washed and regenerated by the Holy Spirit, because as St Paul** says, sin still lives in us, therefore we still fall.** But the beauty about it is that since Christ’s sacrificial death and resurrection, sin does not have the final say.

Christ in us will help us to keep the true spirit of the Ten Commandments.

Christians still break the Ten Commandments because they are sinners. Where oh where does the Bible say a believer, once saved, will stop sinning and never sin again? Oh, that’s right. It doesn’t. That’s you saying that, for no apparent reason. It sounds silly. You should stop.

No I am not saying that at all. Rather it is a conclusion that is drawn from your previous posts.

---

Here it is slowly.

You say that we are dead to sin and you cite related Scriptural verses. Fair enough.

I ask, if we are dead to sin, then how come we still sin?

That, is what you have failed to explain.

WHY, WHY, WHY, IF WE ARE DEAD TO SIN, WE STILL COMMIT SIN. HOW COME WE STILL COMMIT SIN IF WE HAVE ALREADY BEEN JUSTIFIED AND RENEWED IN CHRIST?

Do you get that question at all? Simply saying that the Bible does not say we will never sin again cuts no ice.

YOU HAVE TO EXPLAIN WHY, IF WE HAVE BEEN SAVED WE STILL SIN?

But I have done that explaining for you in the preceding section of this post.

True enough. Well, kind of. But in the end, that is what the Law did. That much is clear.

No it is not clear. EXPLAIN HOW THE LAW CONDEMNS. You keep failing to do that…

 

[benedictus2]

quote] The experience of being “born again” is something Jesus speaks of to Nicodemus, and he says you must be born again.

Wrong. Jesus did not say you must be born again.

Actually Jesus said you must be born from above but Nicodemus misunderstands saying how can we born again? So Jesus explains that one must be born of water and spirit. This is how one is born from above or born again. You need to be baptized.

I’m all about Sola Scriptura, so whatever comes out of that can only be God-made doctrine.

But the problem with that is Sola Scriptura IS A MAN MADE DOCTRINE.

You cannot support Sola Scriptura from the Bible because first of all that would be circular reasoning and second of all the Bible says that the “Pillar and Foundation of truth is the Catholic Church”.

No prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s “private interpretation,” remember? That means none of it is man-made. Who are you to tell someone their doctrine is man-made, anyway?

Hey I am not saying that the Prophet’s doctrine is man made. What is man-made is Sola Scriptura and Sola Scriptura is no prophet’s doctrine.

You’re a freaking Catholic.

You’re right on one thing. I am Catholic. But I am not freaking. The more Catholic you become the less tendency to freak because you know you belong to the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church that Christ founded here on earth.

No. Don’t be an idiot about this.

Sweetheart. You are the one making idiotic comments and I just follow your line of thinking to its proper conclusions.

You say that the difference between Christians and non-christians who commit murder is that through the prompting of the Holy Spirit, Chrisiians feel remorse.

Based on that statement of yours, it follows that non-christians don’t feel remorse, because you have tied up remorse with the prompting of the Holy Spirt and you claim that only Christians are prompted by the Holy Spirit.

Do you understand that? So you see it is you who made an idiotic statement and now don’t know how to get out of it.

No. And most of the questions you’ve submitted are waaayyy sub-par.

Why? Because you can’t answer them? My questions relate to the rationality and logic of your statements.
It is because you fail to think through your statement logically before you post them which opens you up to this line of questioning.

You’re not as clever as you think, Ben.

Never claimed to be. And yes you are right on that one and I am sure people will agree with you that I am quite (even extremely) stupid at times. But that is beside the point. My intellect or your intellect is not what is at issue here.

Was the person one of God’s elect or not? Let’s take Dietrich Bonhoeffer as an example. Imagine that he’d succeeded in killing Hitler, and the very same explosion that kills Hitler kills him, too. Bonhoeffer was one of God’s elect, so he would have been ok. Btw, his confession need not have been auricular confession. I guarantee it would not have been.

Here again is another very ill-though post which opens you up for another barrage of questions.
But let us just list the conclusions that can be derived from your statement.

• That we can know who is God’s elect. Duh, only God knows who belong to the Elect. You or I don’t know that. That is why OSAS is such a ridiculous doctrine because one moment someone says their saved and when they sin you say “they were never saved in the first place’.
• If Bonheoeffer killed Hitler and died in the act of that crime, he died in sin. If you die in your sin you end up in hell. If the Holy Spirit is truly working in him, the Holy Spirit will stop him from committing that very grievous sin.
• If he died during the act of murder and did not have time to repent then he would not have had time to make a confession, auricular or otherwise.
• Are you saying by your statement that God condones un-repented sin in His elect?

See, that’s just embarrassing. You’re trying way too hard to deny everything I say.

There is nothing hard about it at all. The lack of rationality in your post make it waayy too easy.

That’s the main reason for your insistence that I stop quoting so much of the Bible.

Hey, it’s good to quote from the Bible but please establish relevance and try to understand what the passage means. You dump IRRELEVANT QUOTES and expect it to speak for you.

Do you know why you can’t do that? Because that is called circular reasoning. What we are trying to establish here is the meaning of scriptural passages.

Read the Bible and quote from it by all means, but there is nothing in the Bible that says we must park our brains outside when we read.

 

[mmmcounts]

So clearly interpreting Romans 7 to say that the commandments bring death is in oppositon to Jesus’s clear teaching in Matthew. (Which, according to paul c, is “keep the commandments and you will receive eternal life.”)

If that was truly the message of Jesus’ gospel…why did the rich young ruler walk away a sad man? He kept the commandments, right? Clearly God didn’t change his mind about right vs. wrong, obedience vs. disobedience, etc. But if you think good works and obedience to the commandments is all there is to it, you might walk away a little disappointed yourself.

All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it. For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified
Notice, that God will justify those that follow the law, whether they acknowledge it or not.

I’ll also point out how I’m not under the law; therefore it follows that I will not be judged in accordance with it when I sin. Why else would the distinction be made? See if you can follow this:
If all who sin, both under the law and not under the law, and are judged in accordance with it…wouldn’t it say that? Why does it specify those under the law? Can we safely conclude that those who are not under the law are also not judged in accordance with it?
This is a pretty important question to answer, because it pertains directly to a lot of statements made on this thread that you take for granted: statements like “When a Christian dies in a state of sin, it stains your soul.” Would it make a difference to you if you realized for the first time that those who are not under the law (ie., Christians) are not judged in accordance with it?

The correct interpretation of scriptures for Salvation begins with Baptism.

What about the thief on the cross. He never had a chance to get baptized as a symbol of sharing in Christ’s death (Romans 6) but Jesus still told him “today you will be with me in paradise.” I recognize baptism as a sacrament which is not optional, but that doesn’t mean Salvation can’t happen either well before it or entirely without it. Case in point, thief guy.

If man falters and sins, he is lost unless he becomes reconciled to God through the sacrament of Reconciliation.

He is lost? I thought we were lost before we were saved, but now we’ve been found. I also thought we were no longer under the law, which logically (and evidentially, from scripture) means we are no longer judged in accordance with it like the people who are under the law. You following this? See the problem with your statement?

 

[paul_c]

Originally Posted by paul c
So clearly interpreting Romans 7 to say that the commandments bring death is in oppositon to Jesus’s clear teaching in Matthew. (Which, according to paul c, is “keep the commandments and you will receive eternal life.”)

If that was truly the message of Jesus’ gospel…why did the rich young ruler walk away a sad man? He kept the commandments, right? Clearly God didn’t change his mind about right vs. wrong, obedience vs. disobedience, etc. But if you think good works and obedience to the commandments is all there is to it, you might walk away a little disappointed yourself.

Because he put his faith in his riches instead of in God. Oh, and by the way, you misquoted me there. You need to

1. Be baptized, a free gift from God for those with Faith,
   
   • Stay in the state of Grace by demonstrating your faith through works,
     

     All who sin outside the law will also perish without reference to it, and all who sin under the law will be judged in accordance with it. For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified
     Notice, that God will justify those that follow the law, whether they acknowledge it or not.

     I’ll also point out how I’m not under the law; therefore it follows that I will not be judged in accordance with it when I sin. Why else would the distinction be made? See if you can follow this:
     If all who sin, both under the law and not under the law, and are judged in accordance with it…wouldn’t it say that? Why does it specify those under the law? Can we safely conclude that those who are not under the law are also not judged in accordance with it?
     This is a pretty important question to answer, because it pertains directly to a lot of statements made on this thread that you take for granted: statements like “When a Christian dies in a state of sin, it stains your soul.” Would it make a difference to you if you realized for the first time that those who are not under the law (ie., Christians) are not judged in accordance with it?

     
     Read it carefully. It says that whether you are under the law or not, you will still be judged on how you observed the law. If you go back one line in the original passage, it says that God shows no impartiality. In other words, every one will be judged on the same criteria.
     

     The correct interpretation of scriptures for Salvation begins with Baptism.

     What about the thief on the cross. He never had a chance to get baptized as a symbol of sharing in Christ’s death (Romans 6) but Jesus still told him “today you will be with me in paradise.” I recognize baptism as a sacrament which is not optional, but that doesn’t mean Salvation can’t happen either well before it or entirely without it. Case in point, thief guy.

     
     This is a very good example of someone having the intent to be baptized, but the circumstance wouldn’t allow it. People in this situation are considered baptized.
     Here are the pertinent entries form the Catechism:
     1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.
     
     1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.
     
     1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."62 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.
     

     If man falters and sins, he is lost unless he becomes reconciled to God through the sacrament of Reconciliation.

     He is lost? I thought we were lost before we were saved, but now we’ve been found. I also thought we were no longer under the law, which logically (and evidentially, from scripture) means we are no longer judged in accordance with it like the people who are under the law. You following this? See the problem with your statement?

     
     You can get lost again, by turning away from God through Sin. And as I showed above, the law is always in effect. Your OSAS theology is the devil’s ploy to make you complacent, feeling that by simple belief you are saved, even if you do evil afterwards. The truth is that God is just as well as merciful. If you do not remain in the state of Grace, you will lose your salvation. He will not declare you innocent, if indeed you are not.

 

[benedictus2]

If that was truly the message of Jesus’ gospel…why did the rich young ruler walk away a sad man? He kept the commandments, right? Clearly God didn’t change his mind about right vs. wrong, obedience vs. disobedience, etc. But if you think good works and obedience to the commandments is all there is to it, you might walk away a little disappointed yourself.

But that is because you fail to read the rest of the passage. You see, what Jesus is saying to him here is not that he is not saved, it’s that MORE is asked of Him.

AND WHAT IS THAT MORE? “Sell your posessions then come and follow me”

So does that mean that only when you SELL ALL YOUR POSSESIONS TO FOLLOW JESUS will you be saved?

What do you think Jesus is trying to get at in this passage?

He is trying to make a disciple of of the guy. Instead of just following the “DO NOT’S” of the law Christ is giving him something to DO.

Separation from Christ does not come only from doing something bad but also from failing to do good.

Christ is telling this man make ME YOU’RE ALL. But the guy was too attached to riches that is why he went away sad, because he could not make Christ His All.

If you read the Gospels you will know that Christ has a very charismatic personality. People follow him. When He called his apostles, they dropped their nets and followed Him. Yet here is this man, to whom He issues that invitation and the man could not do it. Why because he is rich (and presumably learned as well). The poor and the uneducated apostles, they did not have their wealth and their status to clng to. They only had Jesus. They made Jesus their all.

 

[benedictus2]

I’ll also point out how I’m not under the law; therefore it follows that I will not be judged in accordance with it when I sin.

So what will be the criteria for judging you.

If you committed adultery what will you be judged against? You will be judged according to whether you kept the law. But more than that, if you think the judging is more lenient it is actually the other way around because you have already been given a great grace not to sin and yet you still sinnned.

Here is an example. Two runners, one with only one leg and another with both legs. More will be expected with the one with both legs. If the 1 legged runner falls it’s only to be expected, but the two legged runner?

You see, with Christs’ life death and resurrection, more is actually asked of us because we have already known him. We have already been given the grace. If we still fall then it will go harder for us. We cannot feign ignorance anymore.

But God is merciful.