Regarding Sunday obligation and Mass/Divine Liturgy

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futureKC123

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Hello All,
So here’s the situation. I just recently moved to a new city where there are 3 Roman Catholic churches that all are very mediocre. I’ve been told there is a very traditional Russian Orthodox parish (no pews, long liturgies, head-coverings) not too far away. I’m not sure I can get transportation there (I don’t drive here) but if I can, I have some questions. First off, I’ve been to a Ruthenian Divine Liturgy and also an Antiochian Orthodox one. People were very welcoming and we know some people who go to those parishes. I know that I obviously cannot receive our Lord in Holy Communion but there’s no shame in participating in the liturgy right? My questions:
  1. Should I expect anything different than the Antiochian one? (other than language)
  2. Will they be welcoming to visitors or will I be looked down on for not being Orthodox?
  3. Anything to be worried about cultural wise. This parish is almost exclusively people who moved here from Russia and they’re all Russian speakers.
  4. If they’re welcoming, is there anything bad about going to Mass on Saturday nights and going to Divine Liturgy on Sunday mornings.
  5. Any more (name removed by moderator)ut/advice?
Thanks,
FKC
 
  1. If they’re welcoming, is there anything bad about going to Mass on Saturday nights and going to Divine Liturgy on Sunday mornings.
Yes, you must still attend Mass to fulfill your obligation. There is nothing wrong with attending an Orthodox Divine Liturgy on top of that. 🙂
 
Even as repeat occurrence? I would have to think it’s a better thing than going to some kind of a Lutheran or other Protestant thing.
FKC
 
Even as repeat occurrence? I would have to think it’s a better thing than going to some kind of a Lutheran or other Protestant thing.
FKC
The Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches are considered to be fully apostolic and our sister Churches. They are not considered heretical but, at worst, schismatic in the they are not in Communion with Rome. Regular attendance is fine as long as you don’t get led away from the Catholic Church by attending them and don’t replace your Catholic Mass attendance with Orthodox services. 🙂
 
Even as repeat occurrence? I would have to think it’s a better thing than going to some kind of a Lutheran or other Protestant thing.
FKC
 
(no pews, long liturgies, head-coverings)
Your faith is based on superficial externals like this? You’ll be disappointed when you discover the Russian Orthodox parish is full of sinners, too.

Diving into your own spirituality will help you better appreciate the Mass of your own tradition since you’re judging it on superficial externals. Going elsewhere to support the superficiality isn’t a benefit to your salvation, especially if it entrenches your shallow view of the Mass and therefore of liturgy, the sacraments, and God.
 
Pardon me, but I don’t think wanting a reverent, beautiful liturgy is superficial. I also don’t take too kindly to your insinuation that anyone who thinks such has some sort of “superficial” spirituality. Beauty and reverence in liturgy enhance the atmosphere and better enable us to understand the supernatural events which are taking place right in front of our eyes with things like chant, incense, ceremony, and; above all, an attitude that liturgy is about God and not about us. Furthermore, I don’t think any of these enriching elements are “shallow” by any means. In all serious charity, I might recommend a book to you called “The Spirit of the Liturgy” by Pope Benedict XVI where he explains the spiritual value of these things.
Thanks,
FKC
 
Pardon me, but I don’t think wanting a reverent, beautiful liturgy is superficial. I also don’t take too kindly to your insinuation that anyone who thinks such has some sort of “superficial” spirituality. Beauty and reverence in liturgy enhance the atmosphere and better enable us to understand the supernatural events which are taking place right in front of our eyes with things like chant, incense, ceremony, and; above all, an attitude that liturgy is about God and not about us. Furthermore, I don’t think any of these enriching elements are “shallow” by any means. In all serious charity, I might recommend a book to you called “The Spirit of the Liturgy” by Pope Benedict XVI where he explains the spiritual value of these things.
Thanks,
FKC
They enhance it, but they don’t replace it. A person discerning the priesthood looking outside the church because of “mediocre” liturgy, picking a little from the Anglican use, Byzantines, Maronites, Latin Mass, ordinary form, Orthodox, and whatever else you dabble in shows an apparent breadth but lack of depth. Quoting theology from someone who devoted his life to going deeper into the western mystery and tradition in an effort to support cherry-picking from every tradition to form your own idea of perfection in a church is ironic.
 
I’m not in any way saying that “cherry-picking” in liturgy is a good thing. I don’t see a problem with each rite having it’s own spirituality and flavour. Pope Benedict’s main focus was indeed the West, as he is a Western priest and was the Bishop of Rome. This does not mean, however, that his ideas about liturgy can only be applied to the West. Correct me if I’m wrong but I think that he’s given some sermons on how Catholics participating in different rites from time to time can be enriching and can give us a greater understanding of the liturgical experience. I don’t think this interest lacks depth. I think most of us wish our Roman priests had a better understanding of the Christian East, which is kind of my goal here. I know priests who are biritual and find it tremendously valuable to their spiritual life. Please don’t confuse my interest in authentic Christian liturgy with the laughable things that Protestants do. Though the Orthodox are not in communion with Rome, I, like many, see them in somewhat of a better light than Protestants given their situation.
Thanks,
FKC
 
The Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches are considered to be fully apostolic and our sister Churches. They are not considered heretical but, at worst, schismatic in the they are not in Communion with Rome. Regular attendance is fine as long as you don’t get led away from the Catholic Church by attending them and don’t replace your Catholic Mass attendance with Orthodox services. 🙂
Whoa! kind of a harsh review considering the more charitable words of Blessed JP 2 who spoke of the “two lungs” of the church.
 
Whoa! kind of a harsh review considering the more charitable words of Blessed JP 2 who spoke of the “two lungs” of the church.
I was not personally calling them schismatic. 😊 I meant that the very worst some may consider them schismatic since they don’t teach heresy and therefore cannot be called heretics. 🙂
 
Hello All,
So here’s the situation. I just recently moved to a new city where there are 3 Roman Catholic churches that all are very mediocre. I’ve been told there is a very traditional Russian Orthodox parish (no pews, long liturgies, head-coverings) not too far away. I’m not sure I can get transportation there (I don’t drive here) but if I can, I have some questions. First off, I’ve been to a Ruthenian Divine Liturgy and also an Antiochian Orthodox one. People were very welcoming and we know some people who go to those parishes. I know that I obviously cannot receive our Lord in Holy Communion but there’s no shame in participating in the liturgy right? My questions:
  1. Should I expect anything different than the Antiochian one? (other than language)
  2. Will they be welcoming to visitors or will I be looked down on for not being Orthodox?
  3. Anything to be worried about cultural wise. This parish is almost exclusively people who moved here from Russia and they’re all Russian speakers.
  4. If they’re welcoming, is there anything bad about going to Mass on Saturday nights and going to Divine Liturgy on Sunday mornings.
  5. Any more (name removed by moderator)ut/advice?
Thanks,
FKC
Wow, that’s my exact situation!
 
As I’ve said umpteen times in this forum, a strong argument can be made that attendance at an Orthodox Liturgy (whether OO, EO, or ACoE) can be made that is does, in fact, satisfy the so-called “obligation” that may attach by Romasn law.
 
As I’ve said umpteen times in this forum, a strong argument can be made that attendance at an Orthodox Liturgy (whether OO, EO, or ACoE) can be made that is does, in fact, satisfy the so-called “obligation” that may attach by Romasn law.
I certainly agree with you. 👍 Since the OP is a Latin Catholic, I answered it from the General Western view. 🙂
 
A question that deals with Eastern Canon Law, Sunday Obligation and its interpretation:
  1. I’m a Greek Melkite Catholic and a minor cleric in this Church sui iuris. In my city, there is only one Catholic church of the Byzantine rite (the Greek Melkite Church). The nearest Catholic byzantine rite church (also Greek Melkite) is 120 miles away (that would take around 3 hours by car in my country, which is not USA, so roads are not that good over here).
  2. For several serious and grave reasons (this is not open to discussion, believe me, the serious reason is there), it is morally impossible for me to approach my own Melkite pastor (there is only one Melkite priest in the church).
  3. However, we have plenty Latin parishes in my city and I even know some Latin priests with whom I get along very well.
  4. I may go to a Latin Rite parish - no problem - but this is not the ideal situation. As a minor cleric, I’ll be away from my own rite - which is the Byzantine one - for an indefinite time.
  5. In this situation, may I go to the Greek Orthodox Church of the city to fulfill my Sunday Obligation in order not to lose contact with my own rite until things change in my Melkite parish (if and when they change? - again, the serious matter is there - I won’t go into details, but it is nothing superfluous just like “my church has pews, the chanting is not beautiful enough”).
Before simply answering with canon 671 (CCEO), please consider the following:

CCEO - Canon 881 - §1. The Christian faithful are bound by the obligation to participate on Sundays and feast days in the Divine Liturgy, or according to the prescriptions or legitimate customs of their own Church sui iuris, in the celebration of the divine praises.

This canon does not say that you are bound to participate in a “Catholic” Divine Liturgy and it is phrased in a way that is not parallel to Can. 1248 §1. of the CIC: “A person who assists at a Mass celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the feast day itself or in the evening of the preceding day satisfies the obligation of participating in the Mass.”

Now you may interpret this Canon 881 in two ways:
  1. you could have recourse to analogy, and understand that when CCEO says Divine Liturgy, it is implied “Divine Liturgy celebrated by a Church sui iuris in communion with Rome”, just like Can. 1248 §1. of the CIC does.
  2. That Canon 881 intentionally is not limited to Divine Liturgy in Catholic Churches, because there are some special circumstances when a Catholic may fulfill Sunday Obligation in an Orthodox Church even when there is a Latin rite parish available. Thus, this canon could also be the legal basis for these special cases. The greatest example comes directly from the Vatican webpage - vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20011025_chiesa-caldea-assira_en.html
    The request for admission to the Eucharist between the Chaldean Church and the Assyrian Church of the East is connected with the particular geographical and social situation in which their faithful are actually living. Due to various and sometimes dramatic circumstances, many Assyrian and Chaldean faithful left their motherlands and moved to the Middle East, Scandinavia, Western Europe, Australia and Northern America. As there cannot be a priest for every local community in such a widespread diaspora, numerous Chaldean and Assyrian faithful are confronted with a situation of pastoral necessity with regard to the administration of sacraments.
According to these GUIDELINES FOR ADMISSION TO THE EUCHARIST BETWEEN THE CHALDEAN CHURCH AND THE ASSYRIAN CHURCH OF THE EAST, a Chaldean Catholic may fulfill his Sunday Obligation in an Assyrian Church of the East **EVEN WHEN THIS CHALDEAN CATHOLIC LIVES IN A FOREIGN COUNTRY WHERE THERE ARE PLENTY OF LATIN RITE CATHOLIC PARISHES AVAILABLE. ** For example, if a Chaldean Catholic lives in Europe, it will be easier for him to find a Latin rite parish. Nevertheless, he may fulfill Sunday Obligation in a non-Chalcedonian Orthodox Church (Assyrian Church of the East) even in Europe. The fact is, even if there is a Latin parish available, they may go to the non-Chalcedonian Church in order not to lose their spiritual roots (if they were obliged to go to a Latin rite parish, their tradition would vanish in one or two generations).

The final question - would my situation qualify as the same situation above so that I could fulfill my Sunday Obligation at an Orthodox Church or should I just forget about my own rite, not educate my children in the Byzatine rite and start going to a Latin rite parish (maybe even asking for a formal change of rites)?

Sorry for the long post, but the whole matter is complicated. I would appreciate your comments on this subject.
 
Latin Catholics are allowed to attend the SSPX. I see nothing wrong with “Orthodox in Communion with Rome” attending an Orthodox Divine Liturgy. It is crazy to think the Orthodox Divine Liturgy ceases to fulfill my obligation just because I am in Communion with Rome.
 
Latin Catholics are allowed to attend the SSPX. I see nothing wrong with “Orthodox in Communion with Rome” attending an Orthodox Divine Liturgy. It is crazy to think the Orthodox Divine Liturgy ceases to fulfill my obligation just because I am in Communion with Rome.
An obligation is an ecclesiastic binding by those put over us who say this is the minimum we’ve decided you need to do in order to not lose your salvation. They get to make the rules, like which parishes you’re allowed to attend, when they set out those minimums. If it isn’t a sin they bind on you, you have to be obedient, even if you think it is crazy. You don’t get to make your own rules because you think you know better.

The Vatican used to be wishy-washy on the status of the SSPX and of the laity who attend there. A 2003 letter from the Pontifical Commission “Ecclesia Dei” under Dario Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos allowed attendance “in a strict sense” to fulfill the obligation, but strongly said they “cannot recommend your attendance at such a Mass” and warned of the possibility of sin in doing so if it was coming from a “desire to separate yourself from communion with the Roman Pontiff and those in communion with him.”

A lot happened in SSPX relations between now and then. Their position and the relationship they have with the Church is clearer. The directions given to the laity have changed, too. The bishops get to change the man-made rules they bind on people in order to address the circumstances and needs as they change. Sometimes they loosen and sometimes they bind. Regarding the SSPX, they responded to the changes in the relationship by binding those loyal to the Church.

In February 2012, William Joseph Cardinal Levada, the President of the Pontifical Commission “Ecclesia Dei,” answered a question about whether a Catholic may fulfill his obligation on a day of precept by attending an SSPX or similar Mass. In an apparent reversal of the commission’s guidance from a decade before, he made it clear that it is not a sin to attend SSPX or related Masses, but they cannot be used to fulfill a Roman Catholic’s obligation.

In November 2012, the same body received the same question with the qualifier that the SSPX Mass was “the only opportunity in the local area to participate in the Mass in forma extraordinaria (which the participant is highly devoted to).” They gave the same response, using Pope Benedict’s words to reiterate that “the Society has no canonical status in the Church, and it’s ministers – even though they have been freed of the ecclesiastical penalty – do not legitimately exercise any ministry in the Church.”

Individuals who attend SSPX Masses in place of a canonical Mass sin gravely because they do not attend Mass at a Catholic Church on the bare minimum of days. Sacraments requiring licit orders, including confession and marriage, are invalid while the rest remain illicit. Laity are excommunicated latae senteniae if they attend SSPX Masses out of “withdrawal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or from communion with the members of the Church subject to him.” Neither are devotion to the liturgy or paucity of opportunities to attend the liturgy of one’s preference valid reasons to avoid minimum obligations.

If you’re a Roman Catholic, accept all it’s rules and live by the minimum standards. If you disagree with them, petition the person who can release you from the minimum obligation. Or be honest and acknowledge that you aren’t following the Church. Don’t keep a shoe in one, two, three, four doors and try to convince others it is good for you or the Church to pick and choose. The commission is clear that it does not recommend this course of action as it is at the minimum an occasion of sin, frequently a mortal sin, and opportunity for full excommunication.

Eastern Catholics and their relationships with the Orthodox are different because different disputes are had, different agreements reached and different governing bodies and rules are involved. To quote Roman Catholic canons and requirements and try to apply it to Eastern Catholics hurts all involved by muddying the waters. Roman Catholics have to follow their minimum obligations and the guidance their hierarchy gives. Eastern Catholics have to follow their minimum obligations and the guidance their hierarchy gives. The hierarchy has the privilege and responsibility of making those rules for their people. There’s no middle ground or cherry picking allowed. If you want to know what you should do, the only option is to get a meeting with your bishop or patriarch or their representative and ask.
 
I have already reported the matter to my Eastern bishop by talking directly to him over the telephone. Although he regretted the situation that happened at the Eastern parish, no solution was given at all. So the problem remains and proper hierarchical authority has not solved the problem nor it is willing to do so. Unless I contemplate an appeal to the Holy Father himself (which I do think he would not read) or to the Roman Curia, the Patriarch is not an option, since I live outside the boundaries of Patriarchal territory, so the Patriarch has no power of jurisdiction over here (only in liturgical matters, which is not the case).

Reading again the Guidelines for Chaldean Catholic Church and Assyrian Church of the East at the Vatican website, I now see that canon 671 of CCEO fully applies to them. So, I was not correct by saying that Chaldean Catholics may go to the Assyrian Church of the East even if they have access to a Latin rite parish. If they have acess to a Catholic parish, they must go to it, though it does not belong to their chaldean rite.

So I think the only plausible answer would be the following: go to a Latin rite Mass Saturday evening, to fulfill Sunday obligation. This way, Sunday morning would be free to visit the Orthodox Church (but no communion and this would not fulfill Sunday obligation, which was already fulfilled Saturday Evening).

See that I am not sedevacantist, not against the Novus Ordo Mass (though it is not my rite, since I’m not Latin), the thing is I am in a very special situation here, and the only people who offer the Divine Liturgy in the Byzatine tradition in my area are the Orthodox. In this specific situation, should an Eastern Catholic just abandon his rite and adopt the Latin rite? That is my question - but I think I have already answered it by saying that to solve the problem I only need to go to a Saturday Evening Mass at a Latin Rite parish. See that Vatican Council II, in the DECREE ON THE CATHOLIC CHURCHES OF THE EASTERN RITE “ORIENTALIUM ECCLESIARUM”, has strongly urged us Eastern Catholics to stay with our rites: “Finally, each and every Catholic, as also the baptized of every non-Catholic church or denomination who enters into the fullness of the Catholic communion, **must retain his own rite wherever he is, must cherish it and observe it to the best of his ability **…] 6. All members of the Eastern Rite should know and be convinced that they can and should always preserve their legitimate liturgical rite and their established way of life, and that these may not be altered except to obtain for themselves an organic improvement. All these, then, must be observed by the members of the Eastern rites themselves. Besides, they should attain to an ever greater knowledge and a more exact use of them, and, if in their regard they have fallen short owing to contingencies of times and persons, they should take steps to return to their ancestral traditions.”
 
Pope Francis seems to read his mail. We have seen stories in the news about people receiving phone calls from him in responce to their letters. You should not rashly say that he will not likely read your letter since there is evidence to suggest otherwise.
 
I have already reported the matter to my Eastern bishop by talking directly to him over the telephone. Although he regretted the situation that happened at the Eastern parish, no solution was given at all. So the problem remains and proper hierarchical authority has not solved the problem nor it is willing to do so. Unless I contemplate an appeal to the Holy Father himself (which I do think he would not read) or to the Roman Curia, the Patriarch is not an option, since I live outside the boundaries of Patriarchal territory, so the Patriarch has no power of jurisdiction over here (only in liturgical matters, which is not the case).
It’s hard for me to believe that a Melkite spoke to his bishop about there being no Melkite parish nearby, received no guidance from priest or bishop, won’t consult the bishop again, thinks his own patriarch has no authority over him, and feels like the only person who can give him guidance is the pope. Or an internet forum.

Are you Roman Catholic and identifying with and attending a Melkite parish? Is that why the confusion between which rules to follow and people to consult? Trying to maintain a foot in two or more doors can create internal confusion or conflict. Placing yourself under the authority of one or the other will eliminate the confusion over who has responsibility for you.

If you are Melkite, the answer is simple and obvious: you call your previous pastor for assistance, contact the bishop’s office again, if you receive no assistance you contact other sympathetic people who can advocate for you like monastics or regional bishops, and/or you contact the patriarch’s office. You repeat this until you have the direction you need. Which might not be the direction you want, but we all know what we want and what we need aren’t always the same thing and the Lord tells us humble obedience will always bring about grace.
 
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