Regarding the Biblical Canon (Hippo XXXVI)

[mawst]

Can someone point me to Latin and English texts of Canon 36 from Hippo?

I’m having a hard time finding them.

Thanks.

 

[Zundrah]

I don’t know what “Biblical Canon (Hippo XXXVI)” is…
Can you explain in more detail?

 

[Pete_Holter]

Greetings!

Although you wouldn’t think so from the title, I believe that this is what you are looking for: The Third Council of Carthage on the Canon of Scripture.

With the love of Christ,
Pete

 

[mawst]

Greetings!

Although you wouldn’t think so from the title, I believe that this is what you are looking for: The Third Council of Carthage on the Canon of Scripture.

With the love of Christ,
Pete

I’m actually looking for Hippo, Canon 36, as opposed to Carthage III (Canon 47)

As quoted here by our very own Catholic answers:

Council of Hippo

“[It has been decided] that besides the canonical scriptures nothing be read in church under the name of divine Scripture. But the canonical scriptures are
as follows: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua the Son of Nun, Judges, Ruth, the Kings, four books, the Chronicles, two books, Job, the Psalter, the five books of Solomon [Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, Wisdom, and a portion of the Psalms], the twelve books of the prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Tobit, Judith, Esther, Ezra, two books, Maccabees, two books . . .” (Canon 36 [A.D. 393]).

Source: catholic.com/library/Old_Testament_Canon.asp

I need this document, in Latin and English if possible. I have Carthage.

 

[Pete_Holter]

Hi Mawst!

If you have Carthage, then you have Hippo. It is my understanding that the Council of Hippo is reconstructed from the text of Carthage. So the Catholic Answers tract is simply working with two different English translations of the same text and inserting the names of the five books of Solomon in brackets.

Taken from the article that I previously linked to:

Hefele maintains that this canon derives from an earlier council, convened in 393 at Hippo Regius, and that the third council of Carthage simply incorporated it, along with many other statutes of the earlier council.

Also,

The first council that accepted the present New Testament canon was the Synod of Hippo Regius in North Africa (393 CE); however, the acts of the council are lost. A brief summary of the acts was read at and accepted by the third Synod of Carthage (The Canon approved by the third Synod of Carthage).

I hope you have a blessed day!

Pete

 

[mawst]

Hi Mawst!

If you have Carthage, then you have Hippo. It is my understanding that the Council of Hippo is reconstructed from the text of Carthage. So the Catholic Answers tract is simply working with two different English translations of the same text and inserting the names of the five books of Solomon in brackets.

Taken from the article that I previously linked to:

Also,

I hope you have a blessed day!

Pete

Ok makes sense now… How does Catholic.com get a different Canon number between Carthage and Hippo though?

 

[Pete_Holter]

…on May 25, in the year of our Lord 419, another Council was held in [Carthage] at which all the canons previously adopted [at various African councils] were considered, and the greater part of them were again confirmed by the authority of the synod (The Canons of the 217 Blessed Fathers who met together at Carthage – Introductory Note).

Canon 24 of this council lists the books of Scripture from Hippo and Carthage III and the editor’s note identifies the original source as Canon 36 of Hippo. Denzinger lists this canon under his entry for the Third Council of Carthage and refers to it as “Can. 36 (or otherwise 47).”

For some reason, Catholic Answers settled on 36 for Hippo and 47 for Carthage III. I am not sure how the numbers for these canons of Hippo and Carthage III are known/deduced/conjectured.

Please let me know if you learn something more about this. Thank you!

Your brother in the Lord,
Pete

 

[mawst]

Canon 24 of this council lists the books of Scripture from Hippo and Carthage III and the editor’s note identifies the original source as Canon 36 of Hippo. Denzinger lists this canon under his entry for the Third Council of Carthage and refers to it as “Can. 36 (or otherwise 47).”

For some reason, Catholic Answers settled on 36 for Hippo and 47 for Carthage III. I am not sure how the numbers for these canons of Hippo and Carthage III are known/deduced/conjectured.

Please let me know if you learn something more about this. Thank you!

Your brother in the Lord,
Pete

Your first link, showing canon 24, which council is that? This could very well be the source preserving Canon 36 from Hippo. It says Carthage there, is that Carthage III?

What exactly is the Canons from the 217 Fathers from?

 

[Pete_Holter]

Canon 24 is from a council held in Carthage in A.D. 419 that appears to be variously named. If you go to this page and click on the link in the middle of the page, “Codex Canonum Ecclesiasticorum Sive Codex Canonum Vetus Ecclesiae Romanae,” you can find Migne’s Latin text for Canon 24 on page 41 of the PDF. I would have linked you directly to the PDF but this website asks that its users not do that.

Now that we’ve come this far, it looks like Carthage III of A.D. 397 and Hippo of A.D. 393 are both reconstructed from this later council. Reading again from that first page I linked to in this thread,

Our primary source of information about the third council of Carthage, held in A.D. 397, is an ancient document known as the Codex Canonum Ecclesiæ Africanæ, which presents a compilation of ordinances enacted by various church councils in Carthage [that should probably read, *Africa

] during the fourth and fifth centuries (The Third Council of Carthage on the Canon of Scripture).

The Latin text of Canon 24 on this latter website, they tell us, is from Brooke Foss Westcott’s A General Survey of the History of the Canon of the New Testament During The First Four Centuries.

I suppose the differences between the two Latin texts, the one provided in Migne’s collection and the one Westcott provided, are due to the work of textual critics in deciding which manuscripts reflect the original reading. One notable difference is that Migne’s text refers simply to “Epistolae Pauli 14” whereas Westcott’s text refers to “Epistolae Pauli Apostoli xiii., ejusdem ad Hebraeos una.”

I hope you have a blessed day!
Pete

 

[mawst]

Canon 24 is from a council held in Carthage in A.D. 419 that appears to be variously named. If you go to this page and click on the link in the middle of the page, “Codex Canonum Ecclesiasticorum Sive Codex Canonum Vetus Ecclesiae Romanae,” you can find Migne’s Latin text for Canon 24 on page 41 of the PDF. I would have linked you directly to the PDF but this website asks that its users not do that.

Now that we’ve come this far, it looks like Carthage III of A.D. 397 and Hippo of A.D. 393 are both reconstructed from this later council. Reading again from that first page I linked to in this thread,

The Latin text of Canon 24 on this latter website, they tell us, is from Brooke Foss Westcott’s A General Survey of the History of the Canon of the New Testament During The First Four Centuries.

I suppose the differences between the two Latin texts, the one provided in Migne’s collection and the one Westcott provided, are due to the work of textual critics in deciding which manuscripts reflect the original reading. One notable difference is that Migne’s text refers simply to “Epistolae Pauli 14” whereas Westcott’s text refers to “Epistolae Pauli Apostoli xiii., ejusdem ad Hebraeos una.”

I hope you have a blessed day!
Pete

Ok very good, that’s the conclusion I came to, but I definitely needed backup on that one. I will check these links out, your help is very much appreciated.

 

[mawst]

Canon 24 is from a council held in Carthage in A.D. 419 that appears to be variously named. If you go to this page and click on the link in the middle of the page, “Codex Canonum Ecclesiasticorum Sive Codex Canonum Vetus Ecclesiae Romanae,” you can find Migne’s Latin text for Canon 24 on page 41 of the PDF. I would have linked you directly to the PDF but this website asks that its users not do that.

Now that we’ve come this far, it looks like Carthage III of A.D. 397 and Hippo of A.D. 393 are both reconstructed from this later council. Reading again from that first page I linked to in this thread,

The Latin text of Canon 24 on this latter website, they tell us, is from Brooke Foss Westcott’s A General Survey of the History of the Canon of the New Testament During The First Four Centuries.

I suppose the differences between the two Latin texts, the one provided in Migne’s collection and the one Westcott provided, are due to the work of textual critics in deciding which manuscripts reflect the original reading. One notable difference is that Migne’s text refers simply to “Epistolae Pauli 14” whereas Westcott’s text refers to “Epistolae Pauli Apostoli xiii., ejusdem ad Hebraeos una.”

I hope you have a blessed day!
Pete

Greetings again Pete, I don’t suppose you would be able to track down the latin of Pope Innocent I, Letters 7, (408 AD)… And session 11 of Florence?

 

[Pete_Holter]

I’m glad I can help!

The relevant portion (Capitulum VII, No. 13) of Epistle 6 of Pope Innocent I to St. Exuperius, dated to February of A.D. 405, can be found in the middle of page 13 of the PDF linked here. I think the Catholic Answers tract (or its source) mistakenly took the “CAP. VII” of Letter 6 as referring to Letter 7.

A Latin text for Florence can be found here. The books of Scripture can be found on page 28 (at least as the document is formatted on my computer):

Quinque Moysi id est Genesi Exodo Levitico Numeris Deuteronomio Iosue Iudicum Ruth quatuor Regum duobus Paralipomenon Esdra Neemia Tobia Iudith Hester Iob Psalmis David Parabolis Ecclesiaste Canticis Canticorum Sapientia Ecclesiastico Isaya Ieremia Baruch Ezechiele Daniele duodecim Prophetis Minoribus id est Osee Iohele Amos Abdia Iona Michea Naum Abachuc Sophonia Ageo Zacharia Malachia duobus Machabeorum quatuor Evangeliis Mathei Marci Luce Iohannis quatuordecim Epistolis Pauli ad Romanos duabus ad Corinthios ad Galatas ad Ephesios ad Philipenses duabus ad Thesalonicenses ad Colocenses duabus ad Thimotheum ad Titum ad Philemonem ad Hebreos Petri duabus tribus Iohannis una Iacobi una Iude actibus apostolorum et apocalipsi Iohannis.

Are you working on some massive project???

In Christ,
Pete

 

[mawst]

I’m glad I can help!

The relevant portion (Capitulum VII, No. 13) of Epistle 6 of Pope Innocent I to St. Exuperius, dated to February of A.D. 405, can be found in the middle of page 13 of the PDF linked here. I think the Catholic Answers tract (or its source) mistakenly took the “CAP. VII” of Letter 6 as referring to Letter 7.

A Latin text for Florence can be found here. The books of Scripture can be found on page 28 (at least as the document is formatted on my computer):

Quinque Moysi id est Genesi Exodo Levitico Numeris Deuteronomio Iosue Iudicum Ruth quatuor Regum duobus Paralipomenon Esdra Neemia Tobia Iudith Hester Iob Psalmis David Parabolis Ecclesiaste Canticis Canticorum Sapientia Ecclesiastico Isaya Ieremia Baruch Ezechiele Daniele duodecim Prophetis Minoribus id est Osee Iohele Amos Abdia Iona Michea Naum Abachuc Sophonia Ageo Zacharia Malachia duobus Machabeorum quatuor Evangeliis Mathei Marci Luce Iohannis quatuordecim Epistolis Pauli ad Romanos duabus ad Corinthios ad Galatas ad Ephesios ad Philipenses duabus ad Thesalonicenses ad Colocenses duabus ad Thimotheum ad Titum ad Philemonem ad Hebreos Petri duabus tribus Iohannis una Iacobi una Iude actibus apostolorum et apocalipsi Iohannis.

Are you working on some massive project???

In Christ,
Pete

I am indeed. Again, greatly appreciated. gratia et pacem frater Pete

 

[Pete_Holter]

I’m glad I can help!

The relevant portion (Capitulum VII, No. 13) of Epistle 6 of Pope Innocent I to St. Exuperius, dated to February of A.D. 405, can be found in the middle of page 13 of the PDF linked here. I think the Catholic Answers tract (or its source) mistakenly took the “CAP. VII” of Letter 6 as referring to Letter 7.

I was taking another look at these links, and it looks like a different PDF is now being linked to for his letter. The relevant section is now at the top of page 20.

In Christ,
Pete

 

[Jenova]

I’m a little bit confused with the numbering of our canonical scriptures.

It is said that our canon for Old Testament consists of 46 books, it’s been dogmatized in Council of Trent, as the same canon from Council Of Carthage and Synode of Hippo.

But if I counted the number of books from Carthage Canon, there are only 44.

I’ve found out that our nowadays canon separated book of Lamentation from the book of Jeremiah. If this is counted as 2 books, then we get 45 books.

But I still can’t find the book of Baruch listed in Carthage canon, so I’m stuck with total number 45 books for Old Testament.

Can anyone help me to point out if the Hippo and Carthage also included the book of Baruch to the canon of scripture?

 

[dsmantz]

bump to the top for a question I want to know about!

 

[kepha1]

I’m actually looking for Hippo, Canon 36, as opposed to Carthage III (Canon 47)

As quoted here by our very own Catholic answers:

Council of Hippo

"[It has been decided] that besides the canonical scriptures nothing be read in church under the name of divine Scripture… (Canon 36 [A.D. 393]).

It’s interesting to note this sentence preceeds the list of books in both Hippo and Carthage. It explains why we have a Bible. That’s my $0.02.