Regarding the Holy Hours and the Clergy

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Not necessarily. These are matters of obedience and discipline, not of dogma. Another example is married priests, OK in the Eastern Rites but not in the Roman Rite. It’s a matter of local custom, discipline and obedience to the hierarchy of your Church. It’s not as if the Eastern Rite was saying abortion was OK and the Western not OK, that is a matter of faith and morals.

A good example of something similar is what happens with the Divine Office in Benedictine monasteries. In some, they pray the entire original Benedictine schema in 1 week (about 250 psalms in a week); others like ours use Schema B, 150 psalms in a week; some use Schema B spread over two weeks, or Schemas C and D. Yet others will use the 4-week psalter of the Roman Rite, if they have a significant external apostolate (a teaching mission for example). Each abbot or abbess is free to determine the rules that applies to their community based on the size, needs and mission of the community.

Yet regardless of what the obedience and discipline is, willfully ignoring obedience and discipline should be grave (serious) matters in both East and West.

As I have shown, Eastern clergy are bound to pray the Divine Praises, which are the same as the Divine Office. At least for the two particular laws I posted.

 

[TrueLight]

Not necessarily. These are matters of obedience and discipline, not of dogma. Another example is married priests, OK in the Eastern Rites but not in the Roman Rite. It’s a matter of local custom, discipline and obedience to the hierarchy of your Church. It’s not as if the Eastern Rite was saying abortion was OK and the Western not OK, that is a matter of faith and morals.

I see. So disobeying a rule that only applies to your rite becomes a grave, even mortal sin?

 

[OraLabora]

I see. So disobeying a rule that only applies to your rite becomes a grave, even mortal sin?

Depending on the issue it could be grave matter; whether it is mortal or not depends on it being grave matter, and the circumstances. For instance there’s a huge gulf between making a mistake in choir and wilfully disobeying the abbot. For the former, the monk simply has to make satisfaction before the abbot and community; typically when a monk mangles a psalm, antiphon or reading, he will kneel for a few moments immediately after making the mistake or after returning from the ambo (for a reading). But wilfully disobeying the order of an abbot is a very serious matter.

 

[JReducation]

I’m reading this thread and thinking that you folks may have bitten off more than you can chew on a thread. This is really a subject for a class in Canon Law and in Liturgy. There are a number of things that influence the law here.

1. Is the person a cleric?
2. Is the cleric a deacon, priest or bishop?
3. Is the person a religious?
4. Is he a religious in simple vows or solemn vows?
5. Does the religious belong to a religious order, religious congregation, religious society or society of apostolic life?
6. If the religious belongs to a monastic order, is he or she a choir monk or nun or other?
7. Does the person belong to a secular order?
8. Does this order make vows or promises?
9. Are these vows solemn or simple?
10. What are the rules and norms of the local Church?
11. Do they apply to this person?

As you can see by these questions, the answer to the questions defines the obligation to the Divine Office.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Matthew_Holford]

Secular Priests are bound by cannon law to pray a minimum of Lauds, Vespers, Compline, and any one of the 3 daytime Hours. (That’s Morning, Evening and night prayer, plus any one of the 3 daytime prayers)

Many also choose to pray the Office of Readings, (Matins) but they are not bound to this.

Most members of Religious Orders are bound by Rule to pray the whole of the divine Office every day.

Failure to do this is a breach of cannon law. that is a breach of discipline, which is a sin. To do this knowingly and wilfully would be a mortal sin.

Some secular priests are very short of time and may have such duties that makes praying all these hours very difficult. They can obtain exemptions from some of the requirements, but this would be personally granted by their bishop, That would, frankly, be none of your business as a lay person.

Permanent Deacons are automatically given dispensation to pray just Morning & Evening Prayer in many dioceses as they have normal jobs and often have families.

Secular priests (and deacons aspiring to the priesthood) are bound by the full Office including the Office of Readings.

Permanent deacons are not given a dispensation. They are not dispensed from anything in this matter. The Holy See leaves it to individual episcopal conferences to decide what part of the Office permanent deacons must recite. It recommends a minimum of Morning Prayer and Evening Prayer.

 

[JReducation]

Secular priests (and deacons aspiring to the priesthood) are bound by the full Office including the Office of Readings.

Permanent deacons are not given a dispensation. They are not dispensed from anything in this matter. The Holy See leaves it to individual episcopal conferences to decide what part of the Office permanent deacons must recite. It recommends a minimum of Morning Prayer and Evening Prayer.

All of this is assuming that the secular priest or permanent deacon belongs to a diocese. If he belongs to a priestly society, secular order, secular institute or society of apostolic life, these requirements vary depending on the insitute and the nature of the commitment to the institute. For example, the priests in the FSSP keep the minimum, but their constitutions bind them to recitation in community, which is an anomoly for secular priests.

Oratorians, who are also secular priests are bound to all the hours of the office and at least three must be in community.

This minimum is only for secular priests and secular deacons who are diocesan priests or diocesan deaons that have no other commitments, which is about 75% of secular priests and deacons.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Matthew_Holford]

All of this is assuming that the secular priest or permanent deacon belongs to a diocese. If he belongs to a priestly society, secular order, secular institute or society of apostolic life, these requirements vary depending on the insitute and the nature of the commitment to the institute. For example, the priests in the FSSP keep the minimum, but their constitutions bind them to recitation in community, which is an anomoly for secular priests.

Oratorians, who are also secular priests are bound to all the hours of the office and at least three must be in community.

This minimum is only for secular priests and secular deacons who are diocesan priests or diocesan deaons that have no other commitments, which is about 75% of secular priests and deacons.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

It is true I might have been more precise and referred to the secular clergy of dioceses, territorial prelatures, vicariates apostolic, prefectures apostolic, and permanently established apostolic administrations. Other commitments may be to require Prayer during the Day to be said at two or all three times. They’re may also be an obligation to recite the office in common or may be even chorally.

 

[twf]

Little Lost Boy/ TrueLight:

Its not that it is intrinsically evil or grave matter to neglect to pray part or all of the divine office. The sin is disobedience! Sacred Scripture and Tradition makes it very clear that disobedience is a serious thing for both the West and the East! God values obedience most highly…ask any Eastern monastic and they will agree that disobeying one’s abbot is a big no no… this is the same principle. Christ gave the apostles the power to bind and to loose…the authority of the Church is God given and thus to disobey is to disobey God. The Church has not bound me to pray the divine office, and while I try to pray it privately, I do not sin if I miss a day…

Another example would be abstaining from meat on Fridays. Was it a mortal sin for a Latin Catholic to deliberately and knowlingly eat meat on a Friday in 1950? Yes. Is it a mortal sin for a Latin Catholic today? Depends…if you are a Latin Catholic in England and Wales, the answer is yes, but for Latin Catholics in most countries the answer is no. Its not that eating meat on a Friday is objectively sinful in and of itself - it is disobedience to the bishops, who exercise Christ given authority over the souls entrusted to their care, that is sinful.

He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despieth you, despiseth me, and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me… Lk 10:16

 

[TrueLight]

Little Lost Boy/ TrueLight:

Its not that it is intrinsically evil or grave matter to neglect to pray part or all of the divine office. The sin is disobedience! Sacred Scripture and Tradition makes it very clear that disobedience is a serious thing for both the West and the East! God values obedience most highly…ask any Eastern monastic and they will agree that disobeying one’s abbot is a big no no… this is the same principle. Christ gave the apostles the power to bind and to loose…the authority of the Church is God given and thus to disobey is to disobey God. The Church has not bound me to pray the divine office, and while I try to pray it privately, I do not sin if I miss a day…

Another example would be abstaining from meat on Fridays. Was it a mortal sin for a Latin Catholic to deliberately and knowlingly eat meat on a Friday in 1950? Yes. Is it a mortal sin for a Latin Catholic today? Depends…if you are a Latin Catholic in England and Wales, the answer is yes, but for Latin Catholics in most countries the answer is no. Its not that eating meat on a Friday is objectively sinful in and of itself - it is disobedience to the bishops, who exercise Christ given authority over the souls entrusted to their care, that is sinful.

He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despieth you, despiseth me, and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me… Lk 10:16

Got it. Thanks.

 

[JReducation]

Little Lost Boy/ TrueLight:

Its not that it is intrinsically evil or grave matter to neglect to pray part or all of the divine office. The sin is disobedience! Sacred Scripture and Tradition makes it very clear that disobedience is a serious thing for both the West and the East! God values obedience most highly…ask any Eastern monastic and they will agree that disobeying one’s abbot is a big no no… this is the same principle. Christ gave the apostles the power to bind and to loose…the authority of the Church is God given and thus to disobey is to disobey God. The Church has not bound me to pray the divine office, and while I try to pray it privately, I do not sin if I miss a day…

Another example would be abstaining from meat on Fridays. Was it a mortal sin for a Latin Catholic to deliberately and knowlingly eat meat on a Friday in 1950? Yes. Is it a mortal sin for a Latin Catholic today? Depends…if you are a Latin Catholic in England and Wales, the answer is yes, but for Latin Catholics in most countries the answer is no. Its not that eating meat on a Friday is objectively sinful in and of itself - it is disobedience to the bishops, who exercise Christ given authority over the souls entrusted to their care, that is sinful.

He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despieth you, despiseth me, and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me… Lk 10:16

Actually, this depends on your state in the Church. If you’re a religious who

a) belongs to an order, not a congregation

b) is in solemn vows

If you belong to an order with solemn vows, it is always a mortal sin if you deliberately refrain fromn praying the assigned hours.

That’s why I put that long list of questions in a previous post. You have to answer those questions to determine the individual’s degree of obligation. The obligation is not the same for everyone.

I have never understand why in Traddom, we scream and holler about blurring the lines between the priest and laity in mass, but then we want to blur the lines between everyone else.

Religious, clergy and laity are different form each other.

Religious orders are different from religious congregations.

Solemn vows are different from simple vows.

Perpetual vows are different from temporary vows.

Vows are different from promises.

Secular clergy come in different packages: diocesan, priestly fraternities, societies of apostolic life, secular orders, oratories, secular institutes and Opus Dei.

Canon Law makes a statement that speaks to the majority, which are diocesan priests. The rest are bound by the Ordinary Law of their institutes and tradition.

Why do we want to make statements on this subject that blur the lines between all of these people?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[anruari]

Little Lost Boy/ TrueLight:

Its not that it is intrinsically evil or grave matter to neglect to pray part or all of the divine office. The sin is disobedience! Sacred Scripture and Tradition makes it very clear that disobedience is a serious thing for both the West and the East! God values obedience most highly…ask any Eastern monastic and they will agree that disobeying one’s abbot is a big no no… this is the same principle. Christ gave the apostles the power to bind and to loose…the authority of the Church is God given and thus to disobey is to disobey God. The Church has not bound me to pray the divine office, and while I try to pray it privately, I do not sin if I miss a day…

Another example would be abstaining from meat on Fridays. Was it a mortal sin for a Latin Catholic to deliberately and knowlingly eat meat on a Friday in 1950? Yes. Is it a mortal sin for a Latin Catholic today? Depends…if you are a Latin Catholic in England and Wales, the answer is yes, but for Latin Catholics in most countries the answer is no. Its not that eating meat on a Friday is objectively sinful in and of itself - it is disobedience to the bishops, who exercise Christ given authority over the souls entrusted to their care, that is sinful.

He that heareth you, heareth me; and he that despieth you, despiseth me, and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me… Lk 10:16

You have missunderstood or not read the whole of the letter of the Bishops of England & Wales on this matter: They make it very clear taht to eat meat on any one friday is NOT a mortal sin. What is required is an intention to ordinarily follow this teaching. It is only a mortal sin to reject their teaching and have no intention to observe Friday Penance.
It is very clear that if you accidentally, or deliberately eat meat on any one Friday - especially if it is for some specific reason that you have not committed a sin, but are recommended to offer some other penance instead.