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Esran
Guest
So, would I be reconfirmed? I’m confused…
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Br.Rich_SFO
Guest
It is not possible to say without first having an official investigation into the validlty of your original Baptism.
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PassthePeace1
Guest
Geoffrey,
I called the diocese, and they said the intent…doesn’t have anything to do with what the non catholic church believes about baptism. It has to do with invoking the Trinity for the baptism, and it not an issue that the Trinity is involked, just prior to submersion…because the baptism it’s self, is all one act.
I called the diocese, and they said the intent…doesn’t have anything to do with what the non catholic church believes about baptism. It has to do with invoking the Trinity for the baptism, and it not an issue that the Trinity is involked, just prior to submersion…because the baptism it’s self, is all one act.
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Esran
Guest
The canon lawyer said I should receive conditional Baptism and Confirmation this Easter Vigil.
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Br.Rich_SFO
Guest
I have never heard of a Conditional Confirmation? Even if you are not Baptized and you receive Holy Communion. You receive the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ, you just do not receive any benefit from receiving. There is what is known as a Revival of a Sacrament received with an impediment. It is the same principle applied to Marriage. When a non-Baptized person Marries a Baptized Christian the Grace of the Sacrament of Marriage is impeded because of the lack of the mark of Baptism on one of the persons souls. At the moment that person is Baptized, the Marriage becomes Sacramental. It is the same with Confirmation. Since the Catholic Church does not accept any Confirmation except that from(by or on the authority of) a validly Ordained Bishop and it takes great care to insure the proper minister, Form, Matter, and Intent. You were Confirmed, the Grace was blocked if your Baptism was not valid, and simply awaits your valid Baptism. If you were validly Baptized then you received the Grace of the Sacrament of Confirmation last year. Confirmation can never be repeated. If your Baptism was defective, your Confirmation would take effect at the moment of your valid Baptism.
I have found references to Conditional Baptism in the Churches documents, but never anything to Conditional Confirmation.
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Br.Rich_SFO
Guest
I must add that since I do not have any Chruch documents to back up my opinion about “Conditional Confirmation” either for or against. I must say that it is only my opinion based on what I have read. Corrections in this matter are more than welcome.
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Esran
Guest
The Confirmation is considered invalid because the Baptism was questionable. Baptism is the foundational Sacrament. Without it, Confirmation and Confession do not work. This is according to the thought of St. Thomas Acquinas, blessed be his memory. The Sacrament of Marriage is different.
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dylanschrader
Guest
If baptism is not received validly, then penance, orders, confirmation, and anointing of the sick cannot be received validly. Marriage can be valid but is not a sacrament in that case.
The Eucharist is still the Eucharist because it depends on the priest’s being validly ordained not on anyone’s reception of it.
From the Code of Canon Law:
The Eucharist is still the Eucharist because it depends on the priest’s being validly ordained not on anyone’s reception of it.
From the Code of Canon Law:
Thus, conditional baptism, confirmation, and orders.
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Br.Rich_SFO
Guest
I agree with others that if Baptism is found without a doubt to be invalid then the person would be Baptized and Confirmed, not Conditionally Baptized and Conditionally Confirmed.
As for the Canon I have seen this several times and never connected it to Confirmation in my mind. I’ve always dealt with Conditional Baptism in RCIA, not Confirmation. In light of this OP’s situation it’s possible we may see more and more of these, because of lack of diligence in establishing valid Baptism.
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dylanschrader
Guest
Obviously if the baptism were without a doubt invalid, then the conditional formulas would not be used.
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Esran
Guest
Right, I fear that I’m not alone in this. There may be thousands unknowingly in the same situation I’m in.
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Boso
Guest
What is the exact reason for doubt of validity? Since even an unbeliever can baptize validly (ST III q64 a5), why is there doubt about a Baptist minister?
Leeming, Principles of Sacramental Theology, says: Heretics may not intend to do what the Church really does, and yet may have sufficient intention, provided their prevalent intention is to do what the true Church does, or to do what Christ wished. In this case, the object they will may in fact be what the Church does, for their intention of doing what Christ willed prevails over the intention not to do what the Roman Church does. (italics mine)
The necessary intention “to do what the Church does”, then, is very broadly defined.
Leeming, Principles of Sacramental Theology, says: Heretics may not intend to do what the Church really does, and yet may have sufficient intention, provided their prevalent intention is to do what the true Church does, or to do what Christ wished. In this case, the object they will may in fact be what the Church does, for their intention of doing what Christ willed prevails over the intention not to do what the Roman Church does. (italics mine)
The necessary intention “to do what the Church does”, then, is very broadly defined.
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Boso
Guest
From Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (p. 344, italics mine): Objectively considered, the intention of doing what the Church does suffices. The minister, therefore, does not need to intend what the Church intends, namely, to produce the effects of the Sacraments, for example, the forgiveness of sins; neither does he need to intend to execute a specific Catholic rite. It suffices if he have the intention of performing the religious action as it is current among Christians.
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Boso
Guest
As for the separation of matter (immersion) and form (I baptize thee…), this also happens in Catholic ordination.
I myself was baptized by a man who made explicit (outside the baptismal service) that he believed that baptism does not regenerate, and find some of the language in that 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia article as well as the recent CDF note on Mormon baptism confusing, but still think that your baptism as well as mine are valid.
I myself was baptized by a man who made explicit (outside the baptismal service) that he believed that baptism does not regenerate, and find some of the language in that 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia article as well as the recent CDF note on Mormon baptism confusing, but still think that your baptism as well as mine are valid.
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dylanschrader
Guest
Right. Intention is not the issue here.
The only question is really the seeming separation of form and matter. I would argue that they’re not really being separated very much. As long as it’s clearly the same action, i.e., the immersion is corresponding to the words “I baptize,” then I would say it’s valid.
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sandmountainsli
Guest
Sorry for a Methodist to butt in but would my baptism also be considered valid by your church?
I was baptised by an Independent Baptist Deacon by pouring (at my request), I recited the Apostle’s Creed and the Deacon said “I baptize you in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit” and then poured the water over my head three times from a vessel on his church steps. The Congregational Methodists said it was valid but what say the Catholics?
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dylanschrader
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
My suggestion is for the OP to talk to his pastor about this and to abide by what he says.
Seems like there may be a bit of scrupulosity here.
Seems like there may be a bit of scrupulosity here.
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lak611
Guest
You were validly baptised.
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Cari
Guest
So wait a minute here- when I converted, I got a copy of my baptismal certificate for documantation. I was baptized as an infant, in a Congregational church. The Trinity WAS invoked. However, since the church itself is now gone, I can’t go back and make sure that the baptism was intended to remove Original Sin. Does this make MY baptism invalid? Does this mean every confession I’ve made is invalid? That my entry into the Church is invalid? That my marriage isn’t sacramental and that I’ve never received the Graces from Eucharist?
Great. What started out as an idle way to pass the time, reading this thread, has now spiraled into a theological headache. Do I need to go get conditionally baptized too?
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