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Kendy
Guest
What is the confusion that you perceive? And how do you reconcile it?
Kendy
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Kendy
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CARose
Guest
I was born Catholic, baptised as an infant, drifted out of the church as a young adult and after a long time away from the truth of Christ, I had a conversion experience which eventually drove me head-over-heels in Love with Christ and the Church he left us. Yup, conversion is an on-going process. I am converted on a daily basis and need to cooperate with the Grace of God if I am to be assured of salvation.
CARose
CARose
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
Any person (child or adult) who is born again can later reject God’s will and fall from grace. If they die impenitent in what St. John the Apostle called “mortal sin” then they go to hell.
Being born again is something that really happened to them. However, Scripture speaks of the need for “perseverence” in the faith.
For example, before Peter rejected Christ three times, Jesus prayed that Peter’s faith not fail. Thus, it is true that faith can fail. Peter had real true faith, as this was the testimony of Jesus himself before Peter’s fall. He was justified by faith just as certainly as Abraham was. But Scripture describes him as one who was later offended or skandalized (Grk “skandalizo”). The word skandalizo is the same one used in Scritpure to described the reaction of the Pharisees to Jesus’ teaching, which is antithetical to being a believer. Thus, once a person has real faith, is really born again, their faith can still fail, otherwise it would be absurd for Jesus to pray that his faith not fail.
Later, Peter would be “turned again” (Grk “epistripho”) toward Christ, which is really the point of Christianity. We can fall from grace, and at times we might “resist the Holy Spirit” in our lives, but we must “turn again” like Peter did, or we will end up like Judas, who seemingly failed to “turn again” toward Christ after his fall.
Catholicism joins many Protestants in rejecting the rather unbiblical notion of “once saved always saved.” One need only read Galatians to know that those once truly regenerated in Christ can risk being cut off from him by their sinfulness.
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bene7
Guest
Yes, but not to get saved. It is the saved who persevere.
You corrupted the whole context. Jesus said He prayed for Peter that his faith not fail - even though he would deny Him three times. This is a perfect example of Christ’s High Priestly, intercessory, work now in Heaven on behalf of ALL true believers:
"Hence, also, He (Jesus) *is able to SAVE FOREVER those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them" * (Heb. 7:25).
All true believers are saved through faith in Christ, i,e., believing what He accomplished FOR THEM on the cross. They are kept BY HIM for all eternity because He continually works for them in Heaven as their High Priest. Christ’s work for man’s redemption ended at the cross with the shedding of His blood and death. But His work on the believer’s behalf continues as High Priest. He didn’t ascend to Heaven just to hibernate until He returns again. He’s also the true believer’s Advocate before the Father in case the believer sins (1 John 2:1-2).
Judas NEVER believed in the first place. The phrase, “fall from grace” is from the Book of Galatians (Gal. 5:4). It describes those who have left the *grace teachings of salvation * through faith alone and are trying to now be saved through self-efforts, law keeping. To “fall from grace” means to abandon the truth of Paul’s gospel that one is saved by grace through faith alone.
Blessings,
Bene
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gardenswithkids
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Nice post CARose! That continual daily conversion is a key part of following through on what began at an infant’s baptism. It starts out that God’s grace is freely poured out upon us because our parents requested it. But at some point, we should make it our own. In my life I can recognize several key points when I did that. I think many evangelicals would call the first time that’s done their “born again” experience.
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sandusky
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Then only boys should be baptized.
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Redbandito
Guest
Kendy, the New Covenant is the fulfillment and transformation of the Old Covenant, not the abolition. In OT times, Jews entered their children into covenant with God by circumcising their sons on the 8th day. Could the child have faith for himself? Of course not! The parents were obligated to have the faith for him and raise him by instructing him in the faith. In Genesis, God promised that he would bless the whole world through Abraham’s descendants. This New Covenant that was promised was going to be MORE inclusive, not LESS. If the means by which one came into the covenant in the OT was by the parents having faith for their child, why would we think it would be LESS inclusive after Christ? Jesus was Jewish. He came from Jewish culture, and was himself circumcised. Approach this question from His culture, not our’s.
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Kendy
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In what way, is the new covenant (regeneration) transformative?
Kendy
Kendy
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Redbandito
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This simply is not accurate. For starters, you are just begging the question. Okay, so let’s say I agree with you understanding of this passage, “Hence, also, He (Jesus) *is able to SAVE FOREVER those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them” *(Heb. 7:25)." That still leaves the question. WHO are those who draw near to God through Him? It also leaves the question as to whether this is a one-time event or if it needs to be continued. This verse can only be used to support your thesis by already assuming what you are trying to prove. In other words, this does not support your thesis. I agree that those “who persevere til the end will be saved”, but since you “don’t even know what will happen tomorrow”, it is extremely presumptuous to assume you are one of them. This is the start of the circular argument that you will make, whereby you will claim that “if one has truly been saved, he won’t go astray”. Which again, begs the question, because then the only way I can prove I am saved is by not going astray, which takes a lifetime. Secondly, it brings up the argument of when a person who has been a Christian for a long-time does depart the faith, what happens. Some will attempt to wiggle their way out by stating, “He is just back-slidden, but he will come back”. But, what if he doesn’t? “He is still saved.” So, God takes away man’s free will after re-generation? You could also make the logical conclusion that if a man dies in a "back-slidden state, that he won’t be “saved”. But, if that is the case, then you have effectively refuted your own propositions of both OSAS and an absolute assurance of salvation. The other way is to say, “he was never saved anyway”. Thereby bringing the question of absolute assurance of salvation into question. In other words, if one guy can honestly believe he is “saved” and then later depart from the faith, why do I think it is so impossible for me?
Then you will say, “you don’t believe in the grace of God”. To which I will respond, “I do believe in the grace of God, but I also believe in free will”. You will end by re-stating your thesis which is, “** All true believers are saved through faith in Christ, i,e., believing what He accomplished FOR THEM on the cross. They are kept BY HIM for all eternity because He continually works for them in Heaven as their High Priest.” **Again, this is not necessarily something I disagree with. However, I will restate my thesis, which is that you are just begging the question by assuming that you are one of “THEM”. You will disagree, and of course we will have not gotten anywhere.
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Redbandito
Guest
Kendy, when Adam and Eve fell in the Garden of Eden they died spiritually, What does this mean? They lost sanctifying grace. Being reborn means that we literally have God’s spirit “dwell within us” by means of restoring us to sanctifying grace. Just like I wrote in the last thread, “dwell within us” is not a literal, spatial dwelling. The Holy Spirit is just that, pure spirit. In other words, He is not a corporeal being and does not occupy the physical world as Jesus did. So, what does “dwell within us” mean? God IS where God ACTS. Thus, when the Holy Spirit is working on our souls by means of sactifying grace, He “dwells within us”. Thus, when we fall from this state of grace through “mortal sin” (1 Jn 5:16), the Holy Spirit ceases to work on us through sanctifying grace. HOWEVER, we still receive actual grace, which does allow us the opportunity to repent. Thus, the Holy Spirit has not completely departed from our presence, but we have completely cut Him off from providing us with sanctifying grace. If we were to die in this state, we would not be “saved”, and the Holy Spirit would cease to provide us with grace. Furthermore, because we have the indelible mark of baptism on our souls, and our soul has been re-shaped. It has a new baptismal character. My soul has been “rebuilt” in a sense so that I could have the Holy Spirit “fill” me. Thus, for someone who has been baptized to die in a state of grace and go to Hell, it is MUCH worse than someone who simply was not baptized. For their very being has been re-shaped for God to fill them. When God ceases to fill them, their is a huge void.
So, with all that being said, we get to the point that we started with on the other thread. Being “regenerate” is the process in which we die to our old family (Adam’s family), and are born into a new one (God’s family). It is the process of receiving the Holy Spirit in sanctifying grace so that we may truly become, “partakers of the divine nature” (2 Pet 1:4). As long as we continue to operate as part of the family, we are fine. HOWEVER, if we, by our own free will, should decide to separate ourselves from that family, our Father will allow it. Why? Because He loves us so much that He would never violate one of His greatests gifts to us (free will). The example of the Parable of the Prodigal Son comes back into play here. There are numerous other examples, but I think this parable is the best. So, like we stated in the other thread, once part of a family I can be disowned. I can also do the disowning. In this case, those are one and the same. Should I repent though, I would not have to be re-adopted. My family would just have to forgive me. In the same way, God would not have to re-adopt us, but merely forgive us (which He of course would to the truly repentant son). HOWEVER, His forgiveness of me is CONDITIONAL upon my repentance. If I don’t repent, I remain disowned. Sorry about the long post, but does this make sense?
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gardenswithkids
Guest
Once we are justified through our re-birth in baptism, we call this transformation process “sanctification.” God wants to make us holy. He does this by providing His sanctifying grace. Here’s some more quotes from the Catechism, (which includes some quotes from Bible within it.)
1995 The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the "inner man,"44 justification entails the *sanctification *of his whole being:
Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification. . . . But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life. Romans 6:19,22
1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the *sanctifying *or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:48
Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself. 2 Cor 5:17-18
2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God’s call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God’s interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.
2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, “since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:” (st. Augustine)
Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing. (St. Augustine)
2002 God’s free initiative demands man’s free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy …
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itsjustdave1988
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I’m speaking of Matt 24:13: "he who endures to the end will be saved. "
If you disagree, you are disagreeing with God’s Word according to St. Matthew.
As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).
But Scripture is far from teaching the false doctrine of “once saved always saved.”
Luke 22:32 (NASB)
“but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again (Gk “epistrepho”), strengthen your brothers.”
Epistrepho - turn, be converted, return, turn about, turn again
This same word is used by the Angel Gabriel as he prophesies about John the Baptist in the Luke’s Gospel:
Luke 1:16 "And he will turn (epistrepho) many of the sons of Israel back to the Lord their God.”
Luke tells us that Peter, who most definitely had true faith in Christ, would still undergo yet another conversion. So how many conversions did Peter undergo? Certainly he had true faith before he denied Christ three times, right? Yet after his denial, he was converted, turned again (epistrepho) toward the Lord. Is conversion a one-time event? Or is conversion seen, Scripturally speaking, as something that occurs, at least for some, more than once?
Christ prays that Peter’s faith “may not fail.” Doesn’t this presume that faith can fail? If not, why would Christ pray for a Peter’s faith not to fail, if it had no possibility of failure?
Looking at the corresponding passage in Matthew’s Gospel, we find that Christ says that Peter will become offended (KJV).
KJV: Matt 26:31 “Then said Jesus unto them, “All ye shall be offended [Gk. *Skandalizo] because of me this night: for it is written, ‘I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scatter abroad.’
The sheep of the flock will scatter. Christ says that Peter shall “deny him thrice” (Matt 26:34).
Let’s look at this Greek word skandalizo (“offended”) and see in what other context it is used in the NT.
Skandilizo (Strong’s 4624) to entrap, i.e. trip up (fig. Stumble [trans.] or enticed to sin, apostasy or displeasure):–(make to) offend.
Mt 11:6 blessed is he whoever shall not be offended in me
Christ used the word “offended” (skandalizo), when explaining the parable of the seed. He describes those who “receive the seed into stony places,” receiving it with joy but only “dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended (skandalizo)” (Matt 13:21). In this context, he seems to be speaking of apostasy, rejecting or denying Christ. Much like Peter did, three times.
This provides the context for Matt 26:31, where Christ tells all of his apostles that they will ALL be offended. (See also Mk 14:27)
In Mt 13:57-58, Scripture compares being “offended in him” to unbelief. In fact, “offended” is the very word used to describe the Pharisees’ response to Christ’s message (Mt 15:12 thou that the Pharisees were offended).
Being “offended” is described as the failed response to tribulation (Mt 24:10 and then shall many be offended). This is in contrast to ***those who endure until the end–they shall be saved. ***
Christ told us many things so that we would not be offended (disbelieve). (Jn 16:1 unto you, that ye should not be offended). Even if we come to be offended, however, Christ still welcomes us to repent of our denial of him, and turn again to Him, much like Peter being converted again to Christ.
***“many will fall away (skandalizo) … most people’s love will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.” (Matt 24:10-13) ***
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Philthy
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Hi bene!
bene7:
bene7:
Phil
I don’t remember reading that in the bible. Am I mistaken or did you just make it up?
Faith alone? What’s that? The only biblical definition of faith alone I know of is: that which one is not justified by. Im sure you meant something different.
Phil
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itsjustdave1988
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God gives us faith, not just in one big clump, but continously as a heavenly gift if we continue in the obedience of faith. Scripture shows faith as having degrees. Some are said to have “little faith” and some, like the centurion, are said to have “great faith.”
From Protestant scholar Dr. Thomas Ralston:
St. Paul begins and ends his letter to the Romans reminding us that the grace of God brings about the “obedience of faith.” (Rom 1:5, 16:26). Any attempt to divorce obedience from faith is a nonsensical interpretation of Sacred Scripture.
From Protestant scholar Dr. Thomas Ralston:
However, if we are disobedient to God’s ways, can we truly be said to accepted this heavenly gift? Or do you suppose that by our disobedience, this gift of heavenly faith can turn into the faith of demons, much like the heavenly manna turned into worms? We can become regenerate through the grace of Christ alone, and those regenerate in Christ can become degenerate, or offended (skandalizo) in Christ. If this occurs, only those like Peter who are again converted (epistrepho) to Christ can be saved.
St. Paul begins and ends his letter to the Romans reminding us that the grace of God brings about the “obedience of faith.” (Rom 1:5, 16:26). Any attempt to divorce obedience from faith is a nonsensical interpretation of Sacred Scripture.
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Kendy
Guest
Well, it makes sense, but it doesn’t strike me as particularly transformative in the way that I understand the word. At best, it seems like you are saying that “being a new creature” means cooperating with grace, which is not insignificant, but also not revolutionary from my perspective.
I realize that this isn’t biblical evidence, but I think this personal example will explain what I imagine when I say transformative. After coming to the Lord, I got together with a friend who had been out of town for a weeks and he noted that there was something different about the tempo of my voice, the way at seemed usually at peace, and I felt all of these things, like I was literally transformed into something different.
If you recall in our last thread, I talked about having a distaste for sins that I had previously found impossible to resist. I guess, that’s why it’s weird to me that someone would even suggest that I would want to continue to persist living in sin because I am so comforted in my salvation; That’s no longer who I am.
So, first, is this what catholics believe happens during baptism or am I speaking of something that you find foreign?
Kendy
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Kendy
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I am inclined to agree with all of this, but not convinced at it can be initiated with active faith on the part of the recepient.
Kendy
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Philthy
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Hi Kendy! :yup:
Kendy:
Kendy:
Phil
The tempo of your voice? What does that have to do with anything? I think you projected this change and he observed it. It may have been related to your regeneration, but was not a direct result of it. Certainly you wouldn’t propose the observability of a voice change as an indication of regeneration, would you?
I too have experienced this, though not completely with respect to certain sins. Avoidance of sin comission is not the end, however. You must also be conscious of sins of omission…this is where I struggle now.
Phil
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Redbandito
Guest
I don’t think the point he is making is how we initiate it. We are not so much worried about the Faith/Baptism question at this point as we are to what exactly regeneration or being “born again” really means. Let’s answer that and come to an agreement there, and then we can proceed. Agreed?
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Kendy
Guest
The tempo of your voice? What does that have to do with anything? I think you projected this change and he observed it. It may have been related to your regeneration, but was not a direct result of it. Certainly you wouldn’t propose the observability of a voice change as an indication of regeneration, would you?
Kendy: Oh, fair enough
. I certainly don’t intend to imply that everyone who is regenerated as a voice change. It would be sloppy thinking and bad theology. I was only trying to give an example in which my inward change had an outward effect. Perhaps, a more accurate way would be that I seemed less rushed and gentler in the way I spoke.
I too have experienced this, though not completely with respect to certain sins. Avoidance of sin comission is not the end, however. You must now become more conscious of sins of omission…this is where I struggle now.
Kendy: Sure, but I think being more conscience is part of the transformation. And I don’t mean a one time sudden change to sainthood because I notice increasingly in myself. I might be watching a television show that I had watched for a long time, but suddenly I see the characters in a new light and it suprises me because I didn’t always think this way.
Kendy
Kendy: Oh, fair enough
. I certainly don’t intend to imply that everyone who is regenerated as a voice change. It would be sloppy thinking and bad theology. I was only trying to give an example in which my inward change had an outward effect. Perhaps, a more accurate way would be that I seemed less rushed and gentler in the way I spoke.I too have experienced this, though not completely with respect to certain sins. Avoidance of sin comission is not the end, however. You must now become more conscious of sins of omission…this is where I struggle now.
Kendy: Sure, but I think being more conscience is part of the transformation. And I don’t mean a one time sudden change to sainthood because I notice increasingly in myself. I might be watching a television show that I had watched for a long time, but suddenly I see the characters in a new light and it suprises me because I didn’t always think this way.
Kendy
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Kendy
Guest
Ai Ai Captian
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