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Contarini
Guest
Sandusky,
You’re evading the Biblical evidence. How do you reconcile Matt. 5:17 with Hebrews?
Edwin
You’re evading the Biblical evidence. How do you reconcile Matt. 5:17 with Hebrews?
Edwin
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R
Redbandito
Guest
Sandusky, this is why it is a waste of time to respond to your posts. You have no desire to seek truth. You have a desire to be right. This is not only a poor way of evangelization, it also flies directly in the face of the Gospel. Good luck to you Partner. If you are unwilling to yield, to logic and reason, then I can’t help you. God bless!
R
Redbandito
Guest
He doesn’t. He ignores the texts that disprove his unBiblical theories.
K
Kendy
Guest
Ok, let’s talk how? What sparks regeneration? Faith? Baptism? Both? Personal confession of faith?
Kendy
Kendy
K
Kendy
Guest
Sandusky said: Thank you. It is obsolete, and not transformed. It no longer exists, as it is abolished.
QUOTE=Redbandito]Sandusky, this is why it is a waste of time to respond to your posts. You have no desire to seek truth. You have a desire to be right. This is not only a poor way of evangelization, it also flies directly in the face of the Gospel. Good luck to you Partner. If you are unwilling to yield, to logic and reason, then I can’t help you. God bless!
This argument is very silly. The old covenant is obsolete because Jesus fulfilled it. I think most protestant theologians would agree with this.
Kendy
QUOTE=Redbandito]Sandusky, this is why it is a waste of time to respond to your posts. You have no desire to seek truth. You have a desire to be right. This is not only a poor way of evangelization, it also flies directly in the face of the Gospel. Good luck to you Partner. If you are unwilling to yield, to logic and reason, then I can’t help you. God bless!
This argument is very silly. The old covenant is obsolete because Jesus fulfilled it. I think most protestant theologians would agree with this.
Kendy
S
Sherlock
Guest
So, you’re infallible then? When did God give you the keys?
G
gardenswithkids
Guest
I’d say grace. I suppose it can take place without the formal sacraments, because while God works through the sacraments He isn’t restricted by them.
I believe an active prayer life is also an essential component of this transformation. Prayer helps take us beyond an abstract faith in God to knowledge of Him. Reading and reflecting on scripture is also important part of this. (Many of the formal Catholic prayers include meditations on or phrases from the scriptures.) But it shouldn’t just be a “book” knowledge. It’s a personal relationship with the living God.
I think a lot of people may see the formal prayers and ceremonies in the Catholic Church and think that’s all there is here. But that’s just part of it, and if that’s the only part someone experiences then they are missing a lot. I love reading the lives of the saints and writings by them to see more concrete examples of how God sanctifies us. Over and over personal prayer seems to be a key element to growth in the spiritual life of the saints.
B
bene7
Guest
You’re confused with the Biblical Covenants. The Abrahamic Covenant is not the “Old” Covenant. The “Old” Covenant is the Mosaic Covenant made with national Israel at Mt. Sinai. It included the Decalogue as well as the Temple sacrifices along with civil and religious ordinances. It was a conditional Covenant God made with the nation of Israel, and it was temporary - until Messiah who would inaugurate the New Covenant in His blood.
Technically, circumcision was not a part of the “Old” Covenant (Mosaic) but actually belongs to the Abrahamic Covenant of promise, made with Abraham and his descendants through Isaac and Jacob (Gen. 17), established 400 years prior to the Mosaic (Old) Covenant given at Mt. Sinai (Exe. 20).
Jesus does fulfill the Messianic “blessing” portion of the Abrahamic Covenant, i.e., that “in him” (Abraham) all the families of the earth would be blessed (Gen. 12:3). In other words, in him (and through his descendants) would come the Messiah according to the flesh, bringing in redemption through His blood. Read chapter three of Galatians again.
In Paul’s day circumcision actually became an identity. By submitting to circumcision the Galatians were buying into the false notion (teaching), presented to them by the Judaizers, that they (Gentiles) needed to first become Jewish (the “circumcision” = Jewish; “the uncircumcised” = Gentiles, see Rom. 3:30), and as a Jew observe the requirements of the Mosaic Law in order to be saved. Hence, they fell from GRACE (unmerited, unrecompensed, undeserved favor, through faith in Christ alone). Spiritually speaking they were “severed from Christ.” That didn’t mean those who had believed had lost their salvation, but they’d cut themselves off from experiencing the blessing of Abraham (Gal. 3:14), especially their freedom in Christ. They instead gave themselves over to a “yoke of slavery” (see Gal. 5:1).
Of course by submitting to the Law the Gospel message of salvation through faith in Christ alone would be lost to the next generation. And literally, that generation would be “severed from Christ:” Remember Paul’s spiritual principle: “A little leaven leavens the whole lump” (Gal. 5:9). For this reason Paul took their situation VERY seriously using strong language such as:
GAL 1:6-9 "I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you, and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.
You might want to think about Paul’s warning, Red.
Now to be sure Jesus Himself did fulfill the sacrifices prescribed in the Mosaic (Old) Covenant. They prefigured His “once for all” redemptive work on the cross (1 Pet. 1:18). But that “Old” Covenant was more than sacrifices, it was a rule of life for the Jews. But faith, according to grace, is now the rule of life, this side of the cross, for both Jews and Gentiles who are now, through faith, “in Christ Jesus” - in other words, “born again.”
Blessings,
Bene
K
Kendy
Guest
I realize that we are continually transformed and sanctified, but I want to focus on that first dispensation of grace. What opens the flood gates of grace? If it were grace alone, then God could just freely dispense regeneration to all of humanity. Oviously that doesn’t happen. So in a sense, under what circumstances does God dispense regenerative grace?
Kendy
C
Church_Militant
Guest
Covenant God made with the nation of Israel, and it was temporary - until Messiah who would inaugurate the New Covenant in His blood.
Blessings,
BeneWelcome to “Dispensationalism 101” right Bene7?
B
bene7
Guest
Re. Matt. 5:17 Jesus did fulfill the sacrifices of the Mosaic Covenant (the Law) when He became the once for all, final sacrifice, the “Lamb of God,” taking away the sin of the world (John 1:29). Also as a Man, born of a woman, born under the Law (Gal. 4:4-5), he abided in it perfectly. Hence, He “fulfilled it.” And according to the Book of Hebrews, God’s written Word, by bringing in the New Covenant in His blood, He made the “Old” “obsolete.”
But what He did not do was “transform it”!!!
Blessings,
Bene
But what He did not do was “transform it”!!!
Blessings,
Bene
B
bene7
Guest
Church Militant:
You should too, it would help you to get the faith straight, i.e., according to the revealed Word of God, not the traditions and the imaginations of mere men.
Blessings,
Bene
Has nothing to do with “Dispensationalism,” but everything to do with the literal Biblical covenants. Although Dispensationalists rightly recognize the Biblical Covenants.
You should too, it would help you to get the faith straight, i.e., according to the revealed Word of God, not the traditions and the imaginations of mere men.
Blessings,
Bene
C
CARose
Guest
Kendy, you seem stuck on the fact that God, being Truth itself, is also bound by Justice. It wouldn’t be Just to simply ignore the sin of Mankind, so salvation was necessary, and an infinite sacrifice was necessary to atone for the sin against the infinite God. Also, God has given us free will, which we are required to utilize on our path to God. Through this, we are given the opportunity to learn the true meaning of Love, the love that he, through his beloved Son, demonstrated for us in the crucifixion. Christ gave himself fully for us, so that sin might be conquered.
It’s like Abraham, who so loved and trusted God, that he was willing to give his son Isaac in sacrifice because God requested it. Just as you asked on the other thread about Sarah being our Spiritual Mother, and my stating that she was a type of Mary, so Isaac was a foreshadowing of Jesus.
God won’t impose heaven on those who don’t desire it, and he needs us to learn the meaning of Love to become our best selves. We, as feeble as we are, need many lessons to grasp this truth, that sacrifice is the truest form of love.
God Bless,
CARose
K
Kendy
Guest
I am afraid you have missed the point of my post entirely. Like I said before, we started this thread to continue discussing an issue that came up in the justification by faith thread. My only motive in asking the question is to move that conversation along in what seemed to me the next relevant issue. It has nothing to do with God being bound by justice.
Kendy
C
CARose
Guest
We are saved by Grace alone, through faith and works. God gives his Grace freely, in sufficient amounts to each to allow for their salvation. However, we must cooperate with that Grace, it is not forced upon us.
It’s like receiving an awesome present and leaving it wrapped under the tree all year. Doesn’t do us much good, even if it was something wonderful from the giver.
CARose
It’s like receiving an awesome present and leaving it wrapped under the tree all year. Doesn’t do us much good, even if it was something wonderful from the giver.
CARose
K
Kendy
Guest
Carose, I am not sure how much of the thread you have read, but that’s not what I am asking.
The question is what sparks regeneration or as my prostestant friends my say the “born again” experience. Having discussed how regeneration is transformative, I only want to explore how it is initiated.
Kendy
C
CARose
Guest
I’ve read the entire thread (with the exception of perhaps a couple long posts that didn’t appear to be going anywhere, so I skipped them).
You’ve asked on this and perhaps the other thread as well, why God doesn’t just save us all.
Kendy:
I could have stated that our first grace is received upon baptism, but that could result in concerns about grace for those who have not been baptized. God is not limited to the sacraments, although he has promised to provide grace through them.
Gotta go, time for dinner,
CARose
You’ve asked on this and perhaps the other thread as well, why God doesn’t just save us all.
This is what I was answering 2 posts ago, but you didn’t like that. So I tried again to break it down to the it’s most simple terms.
I could have stated that our first grace is received upon baptism, but that could result in concerns about grace for those who have not been baptized. God is not limited to the sacraments, although he has promised to provide grace through them.
Gotta go, time for dinner,
CARose
W
wpr
Guest
**
itsjustdave1988:
I am so hesitant to correct Dave, but I recall from the Baptism of my daughter just 2 months ago we responded “Baptism”.
Yet at the same time a profession of faith is made. A series of questions are asked using the Crede as the basis. I’d say that may qualify for the “profession of faith”.
By the way…I really like the post you made using ACTS. I learned much from it.**
with regeneration or justification. In the Rite of Baptism, the adult or the godparent is asked, “What is it that you ask of the Church?” The answer is “Faith.”
I am so hesitant to correct Dave, but I recall from the Baptism of my daughter just 2 months ago we responded “Baptism”.
Yet at the same time a profession of faith is made. A series of questions are asked using the Crede as the basis. I’d say that may qualify for the “profession of faith”.
By the way…I really like the post you made using ACTS. I learned much from it.**
C
Church_Militant
Guest
wpr, the correct answer is indeed “faith”, don’t know why they did yours different. Baptism is valid of course because of your intention.
From the CCC:
Faith and Baptism
1253 Baptism is the sacrament of faith.[54] But faith needs the community of believers. It is only within the faith of the Church that each of the faithful can believe. The faith required for Baptism is not a perfect and mature faith, but a beginning that is called to develop. **The catechumen or the godparent is asked: “What do you ask of God’s Church?” The response is: “Faith!” ** (LINK)
Pax tecum,
From the CCC:
Faith and Baptism
1253 Baptism is the sacrament of faith.[54] But faith needs the community of believers. It is only within the faith of the Church that each of the faithful can believe. The faith required for Baptism is not a perfect and mature faith, but a beginning that is called to develop. **The catechumen or the godparent is asked: “What do you ask of God’s Church?” The response is: “Faith!” ** (LINK)
Pax tecum,
K
Kendy
Guest
Well, I am sorry if I am not being clear, but I am not concerned about why God doesn’t save us all. First, I think I know why (I only brought it up in the Marian thread because I thought it was relevant at the time). Second, it is a different conversation.
Kendy
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