Reiki and Catholicism

[Snerticus]

I think I need to say that these two things:

The spiritual activity produces positive feelings.
The spiritual activity produces a positive external effect.

Are not rules that determine that the spiritual activity is a morally good thing that is pleasing to God.

In fact the opposite can and is often the case. And that, to sum it up is the problem with a great deal of the Charismatic, New Age, and occult movements. They approach the spiritual without a framework of knowledge of the spiritual reality, and rely only on the positive experiences they have.

For example:

Using the drug heroin produces positive feelings.
To the user it appears to have a positive immediate effect.

But using the drug heroin is an addiction and produces changes in the brain and damages the health in the long term.

In the Old Testament Moses has a competition with the Egyptian magicians, and they produce many similar effects to that ones he produces. Simply because something appears to have spiritually benefited the health does not mean it is of God – There are many illnesses caused by the spiritual, so that ‘curing’ them is a matter of spiritual deceit, for example.

The spiritual reality can be even more deadly than heroin, as something that always appears positive and beneficial can right up to the end, be mortally sinful and deadly to your spiritual life.

This is why all spiritual activity must be ordered within the framework God has given us, through Revelation and thence the Catholic Church the caretaker thereof. The saints and Popes testify to the rules for dealing with the spiritual reality, to the rules for the spiritual life.

If we abide by the laws of God in the spiritual life, if we seek to live moral lives and do not seek out extraordinary spiritual experiences but await the pleasure of God in these matters, then we are doing well.

Awesome way of looking at it. The occult and any type of unhealthy spirituality is addictive and can be likened to the soul on drugs. And the person benefiting from these experiences would have no idea what it is doing to them - until it is too late. Just like with drugs in the material world…

 

[cheese_sdc]

Please read the following two links:

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=2929&CFID=1173902&CFTOKEN=38094901

http://www.saint-mike.org/spcdc/bbs/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1643#6764

I have read much of the same elsewhere, but thanks.

What is it that you consider Reiki is? Natural or spiritual?

Honestly, I’m still working that out.

There’ve been books out recently about how practices forbidden to the Church by God have crept into religious orders, the New Age. I have not read ‘Unicorn in the Sanctuary’ and books of this kind but perhaps they would be helpful.

I have read “Unicorn in the Santuary” and have heard the author speak, many years ago.

Please cease immediately for the sake of you and your family. I cannot state plainly enough the trouble this causes.

I have seen too much good in my family, but thanks.

You will likely have difficulty stopping, which should also be a sign to you of the problems involved.

Sorry, not trying to make light of your statement, but it did cause me to lol.

You have my prayers.

I appreciate those.

 

[j2c99]

I agree with Shin. cheese, you need to reconsider this all and use the framework our Lord has given us. If you do not heed to this, it might be too late in the end to repent of reiki, which I believe is a direct violation of the 1st Commandment.

Syncretism, as you have stated in your previous post that you and your wife do with Catholicism and reiki, does not make you safe. Thats an old Roman idea that “better safe than sorry” and they just did everything religious to cover all their bases. That’s not how it works. Imagine if a doctor gave you every medicine known to man to treat some cold he wasn’t sure actually was a cold; you would be sicker than where you started.

You and your family are in my prayers.

 

[Shin]

Honestly, I’m still working that out.

So if you don’t know what it is, and fooling around with stuff you don’t know what it is in the spiritual life is a way of killing yourself, why do it?

It’s like going into the forest and eating tons of mushrooms because they look and taste good.

Only this time you can’t even see mushrooms, you can’t even see what you’re actually doing.

No but seriously, it’s not quite a laughing matter. This is serious stuff. And most of the people fooling with don’t know what they’re doing it’s not even just you.

The witches know what they’re doing with it though. And that’s where it’s popular.

If you discover you can’t live without it, that’s a sign that it’s bad, not good. Like those painkiller addictions…

This stuff can be a mask over a real problem, and is part of the problem.

Reiki has all the marks of the occult – one of those marks is that the practitioners are required to sell it – selling the spiritual is simony, a deadly sin in and of itself. The ‘white magic’ (no such thing) practitioners know it for what it is. God has forbidden Christians to practice magic, channeling, spiritism.

Try reading some more works about in on that spiritual warfare forum.

Well what more can I say?

Don’t gamble with your soul. Especially when the odds are this stacked against you. Natural healing energy? The likelihood is nil. Spiritual energy the work of demons? Probability through the roof. And either way you don’t need it. God asks people to give up all sorts of things to serve him, both good and evil. So…

Just say no. Please.

By deceiving Adam and in this way gaining mastery over him, the devil deprived him of his authority and proclaimed himself lord of this world. For in the beginning God appointed man to be the lord of this world and the master of visible things (cf. Gen. 1:26). On this account, fire had no power over him, water did not drown him, no animal injured him, poisonous snakes had no effect on him. But once he had been deceived, he surrendered his lordship to his deceiver. For this reason sorcerers and magicians, through the use of diabolic energy, become with God’s permission miracle-workers: they have power over poisonous snakes and they challenge fire and water, as was exemplified by the followers of Jannes and Jambres who opposed Moses (cf. Exod. chs. 7-8; 2 Tim. 3:8), and by the Simon who resisted the chief apostle, Peter. (cf. Acts 8:18-24)’

St. Symeon Metaphrastis

 

[cheese_sdc]

I agree with Shin. cheese, you need to reconsider this all and use the framework our Lord has given us.

I have. I believe very much in the scripture that a bad tree produces bad fruit, but a good tree produces good fruit. What I have experienced of reiki has been good.

If you do not heed to this, it might be too late in the end to repent of reiki, which I believe is a direct violation of the 1st Commandment.

There are many ways to violate the 1st Commandment, reiki being but one. There are ways to do it within the framework of Catholicism, yet this doesn’t negate the validity of Catholicism.

Syncretism, as you have stated in your previous post that you and your wife do with Catholicism and reiki, does not make you safe. Thats an old Roman idea that “better safe than sorry” and they just did everything religious to cover all their bases. That’s not how it works. Imagine if a doctor gave you every medicine known to man to treat some cold he wasn’t sure actually was a cold; you would be sicker than where you started.

I disagree that my wife practices syncretism. Rather, she (and I) heed the words of the Declaration on the Relationship of the Church to Non-Christian Religions. The Church rejects nothing that is good and holy in any religion.

 

[cheese_sdc]

Reiki has all the marks of the occult – one of those marks is that the practitioners are required to sell it – selling the spiritual is simony, a deadly sin in and of itself.

That is not quite true. practitioners are encouraged to accept a gift in exchange for their services, but it doesn’t have to be money. I’ve been given soap and salt, and I have given food in exchange for reiki.

Try reading some more works about in on that spiritual warfare forum.

Not quite how to say this without boasting… When it comes to spiritual warfare, I’ve seen the elephant and endured much. I’ve “been there, done that, don’t care to have a T-shirt, the memories are enough”. I’ve fought so much that I finally learned that you cannot fight. It is only in not fighting that you win.

And once that it understood… well, that’s just all there is to it. Kind of like this thread. I’ve posted my experiences with reiki, you have posted yours. We disagree. But I will try to not argue. Truth is Truth and It doesn’t need me to defend It. If anything I have written rings true with you, good. If not, leave it aside. But to continue to argue about it is a waste of electrons.

Now, if you are interested in my experience in spiritual warfare, I will gladly share. But, from what I’ve read, it will be different from your take on the issue.

 

[beckycmarie]

I disagree that my wife practices syncretism. Rather, she (and I) heed the words of the Declaration on the Relationship of the Church to Non-Christian Religions. The Church rejects nothing that is good and holy in any religion.

So when the USCCB makes a statement declaring that reiki is not “good and holy,” you submit to their teaching, right?

 

[cheese_sdc]

So when the USCCB makes a statement declaring that reiki is not “good and holy,” you submit to their teaching, right?

I’m not catholic. Used to be. But I still respect the scholarship of the bishops.

 

[beckycmarie]

I’m not catholic. Used to be. But I still respect the scholarship of the bishops.

Ah. In that case, I recommend taking the Bishops’ advice on Reiki.

From a deliverance ministry perspective, Reiki has been known to cause demonization.

 

[cheese_sdc]

Ah. In that case, I recommend taking the Bishops’ advice on Reiki.

Thanks for your recommendation.

From a deliverance ministry perspective, Reiki has been known to cause demonization.

Please see my posts above.

 

[Snerticus]

Not quite how to say this without boasting… When it comes to spiritual warfare, I’ve seen the elephant and endured much. I’ve “been there, done that, don’t care to have a T-shirt, the memories are enough”. I’ve fought so much that I finally learned that you cannot fight. It is only in not fighting that you win.

Well, since my view is from a Catholic perspective and you are not Catholic, this probably seems like nonsense.

You can never stop fighting and expect to win. Once you stop, you’ve already lost. We are expected to fight the good fight and endure till the end. I hope God gives me the Grace to do just that. But knowing I’m human and can fall and stay there just scares the heck out of me. I’m always praying I keep fighting. Prayer is the best defense in spiritual warfare. We’ve already won, we just have to persevere in order to share in the victory.

Believing you cannot fight is the first thing Satan wants you to believe. Once you’ve fallen for that, it’s easy for him to twist and bend you the way he wants without you even realizing it. Good things tend to appear bad and bad things tend to appear good.

In a way, I’m glad you said this, and it puts everything into perspective. It now makes sense why you believe Reiki is good. It also shows us that you need some serious prayer.

You’re in my prayers, my friend. I think you’ll be in all our prayers.

But I am curious as to what your ‘spiritual warfare’ entailed, since most spiritual warfare goes unnoticed by most and is only affected in the natural world by a dispay of immorality - and most ignore this as being spiritual at all.

God Bless,
Snert

 

[cheese_sdc]

But I am curious as to what your ‘spiritual warfare’ entailed, since most spiritual warfare goes unnoticed by most and is only affected in the natural world by a dispay of immorality - and most ignore this as being spiritual at all.

Since you asked… takes a breath.

I was baptized in the spirit when I was in junior high. Prayed in tongues and the whole bit. My family was a devout, Italian Catholic family who prayed the rosary together (not that I like it :lol, said grace, and NEVER missed mass. We’d even go to the Triduum services (some of the few in my parish growing up). We had a crucifix in every room and went to confession regularly. I was an altar boy and even trained altar servers in high school (I taught the first girl altar server in my parish!).

In high school, my family moved across the state so that my mother could start a Center for Catholic Charismatic Renewal and I was active in a charismatic youth ministry team. I prayed this prayer at least once a week (and sometimes more). I bound the adversary and cast out demons in the name of Jesus at the drop of a hat. I used holy water, blessed oil, and blessed salt extensively in my home, my work, and my school. I’d plead the blood of Jesus would cover me every night.

I did not listen to secular music, just christian music and praise and worship music.

I entered the Catholic seminary when I was 18, and graduated magna cum laud from a small southern seminary run by monks. I studied for my home diocese and planned on being a secular priest. I decided, for numerous reasons, to not continue my seminary education after graduating, and instead moved to a big city and taught Religion, English and Literature in a catholic school.

I joined the choir of my local parish and played guitar in for almost 10 years. I taught CCD for two years, helped with confirmation, and helped teach RCIA. One Saturday morning, when my girlfriend (now wife ) couldn’t reach me on the phone, she accused me of being hungover from partying too much on Friday night.

I was actually helping to clean the church. :lol:

My wife and I used NFP, and when we encountered fertitily issues, we used the Pope Paul VI Institute for fertility treatments and even did a novena of first Friday Masses. We got pregnant soon after.

I write this to help y’all understand that I have “Catholic Cred”. I’ve been there, done that, and have the tshirts.

But here’s the deal - during a lot of that time, high school, college and young adulthood, I was tormented by a nameless fear in the dark. I would not be in a room with the lights off, and there were times I would stay awake until I couldn’t stand it, just so I wouldn’t have to face the darkness of my bedroom. In college (seminary), I would run from room to room at night, not daring to look back, because I knew something was right there.

I was being tormented by some malevolent entity. Even with all of the standard spiritual warfare prayers I mentioned above.

It wasn’t until after I was married that I opened up to a friend and told about this, and she reminded me that we are Catholics, and part of Catholicism holds to a belief in beasties and things that go bump in the night. Instead of being frightened, it is better not engage them. I learned to pray not necessarily an exorcism, but instead to pray that God would so fill the space I was that evil could not co-exist. I used holy water not to drive off evil, but to invite Good.

It’s kind of like a bully - execpt that you don’t drive them away by standing up to them (that only empowers them); you drive them away by praying that God would so fill the area with Goodness and Light and Truth that only something that was equally Good and Light could be there. Once I started doing those things, my fears subsided and I have not been bothered in that way again.

I say “in that way”, because I have been much aware of the metaphysical realm around us and found that it is populated by things undreamed of. I’ve encountered good and godly things, evil things, and neutral things.

I know that this won’t make sense to some of y’all - my worldview used to be much the same - black and white. But I have found much more than that.

 

[Snerticus]

Since you asked… takes a breath.

I was baptized in the spirit when I was in junior high. Prayed in tongues and the whole bit. My family was a devout, Italian Catholic family who prayed the rosary together (not that I like it :lol, said grace, and NEVER missed mass. We’d even go to the Triduum services (some of the few in my parish growing up). We had a crucifix in every room and went to confession regularly. I was an altar boy and even trained altar servers in high school (I taught the first girl altar server in my parish!).

In high school, my family moved across the state so that my mother could start a Center for Catholic Charismatic Renewal and I was active in a charismatic youth ministry team. I prayed this prayer at least once a week (and sometimes more). I bound the adversary and cast out demons in the name of Jesus at the drop of a hat. I used holy water, blessed oil, and blessed salt extensively in my home, my work, and my school. I’d plead the blood of Jesus would cover me every night.

I did not listen to secular music, just christian music and praise and worship music.

I entered the Catholic seminary when I was 18, and graduated magna cum laud from a small southern seminary run by monks. I studied for my home diocese and planned on being a secular priest. I decided, for numerous reasons, to not continue my seminary education after graduating, and instead moved to a big city and taught Religion, English and Literature in a catholic school.

I joined the choir of my local parish and played guitar in for almost 10 years. I taught CCD for two years, helped with confirmation, and helped teach RCIA. One Saturday morning, when my girlfriend (now wife ) couldn’t reach me on the phone, she accused me of being hungover from partying too much on Friday night.

I was actually helping to clean the church. :lol:

My wife and I used NFP, and when we encountered fertitily issues, we used the Pope Paul VI Institute for fertility treatments and even did a novena of first Friday Masses. We got pregnant soon after.

I write this to help y’all understand that I have “Catholic Cred”. I’ve been there, done that, and have the tshirts.

But here’s the deal - during a lot of that time, high school, college and young adulthood, I was tormented by a nameless fear in the dark. I would not be in a room with the lights off, and there were times I would stay awake until I couldn’t stand it, just so I wouldn’t have to face the darkness of my bedroom. In college (seminary), I would run from room to room at night, not daring to look back, because I knew something was right there.

I was being tormented by some malevolent entity. Even with all of the standard spiritual warfare prayers I mentioned above.

It wasn’t until after I was married that I opened up to a friend and told about this, and she reminded me that we are Catholics, and part of Catholicism holds to a belief in beasties and things that go bump in the night. Instead of being frightened, it is better not engage them. I learned to pray not necessarily an exorcism, but instead to pray that God would so fill the space I was that evil could not co-exist. I used holy water not to drive off evil, but to invite Good.

It’s kind of like a bully - execpt that you don’t drive them away by standing up to them (that only empowers them); you drive them away by praying that God would so fill the area with Goodness and Light and Truth that only something that was equally Good and Light could be there. Once I started doing those things, my fears subsided and I have not been bothered in that way again.

I say “in that way”, because I have been much aware of the metaphysical realm around us and found that it is populated by things undreamed of. I’ve encountered good and godly things, evil things, and neutral things.

I know that this won’t make sense to some of y’all - my worldview used to be much the same - black and white. But I have found much more than that.

Thanks for sharing that. But I do have to wonder… I think that you may have invited those spirits into your life inadvertently by praying the exorcism prayers. From what I have heard, it is dangerous to think we can engage the enemy by ourselves. I’ve read from various sites that the safest way to do it is through God’s help and St. Michael the Archangel. I’ve also read to never directly speak to demons as through exorcism prayers, to leave that to a qualified priest. We should always go through God and St. Michael and perhaps Mary, who is after all, Queen of the Angels. It’s just a theory, but directly addressing demons through that prayer you linked to (other than the one to St. Michael) may have made you succeptible to their influences. I just heard recently that when you try to take on a malevolent spirit yourself, you’re always going to lose. Even if it initially seems like you’re winning. Perhaps they cooperate for a while until they’ve got you trusting in yourself that you have sufficient power over them?

Also, although the Charismatic movement is popular and accepted by the Church, it is not as regulated as it should be. I believe that sometimes spirits other than Holy are involved. To what I’ve witnessed personally, some Charismatic circles come awful close to New Age spirituality.

But thank you for posting your experiences. I have a renewed enthusiasm for praying for your spiritual safety. May God Bless you and your family, and may He keep you safe from the evil one.

Snert

 

[cheese_sdc]

Thanks for sharing that. But I do have to wonder… I think that you may have invited those spirits into your life inadvertently by praying the exorcism prayers. From what I have heard, it is dangerous to think we can engage the enemy by ourselves.

This is what I have found to be true as well.

Also, although the Charismatic movement is popular and accepted by the Church, it is not as regulated as it should be. I believe that sometimes spirits other than Holy are involved.

I think that this can be true, and that most of the time, the “spirit” involved is the participant’s own ego. At least, this is what I’ve experienced. Incidently, all of the above happened before I started using reiki, and why I would be extraordinarily sensitive to any malevolent influences with reiki (I have yet to experience any).

 

[beckycmarie]

This is what I have found to be true as well. I think that this can be true, and that most of the time, the “spirit” involved is the participant’s own ego. At least, this is what I’ve experienced. Incidently, all of the above happened before I started using reiki, and why I would be extraordinarily sensitive to any malevolent influences with reiki (I have yet to experience any).

In order to be “extraordinarily sensitive to any malevolent influences” doesn’t one need to have the gift of discernment of spirits? This is a pretty rare charism; generally people who have it can sense immediately the presence of the Holy Spirit or of an evil spirit.

By being away from the Church and the Sacraments, you are especially vulnerable to being deceived.

 

[Lifeisawesome]

I know that the US bishops have issued this statement, and for many here, that is enough. I would like to just point out that there are people and communities that have had good experiences with reiki. I have used it for three years, encouraged my wife to do so, and we both use it daily on our daughter. In addition, we avail ourselves to the sacramentals of the Church, and my wife is a faithful Catholic.

Agreed on your first point. On this latter point I am genuinely curious regarding your point of view. Just to reiterate - I am not in any way seeking to be argumentative - I just want to understand. What is your view of the magisterium? Is it optional to disobey in this case?

God Bless

 

[cheese_sdc]

In order to be “extraordinarily sensitive to any malevolent influences” doesn’t one need to have the gift of discernment of spirits?

Yep.

This is a pretty rare charism; generally people who have it can sense immediately the presence of the Holy Spirit or of an evil spirit.

I agree, which is why I was very careful before getting into reiki. I studied the Declaration of the Relationship of the Church to Non-Christian Religions, I looked at scripture, and I looked to my own experience.

All together, I determined that reiki was good. Was there the possibility of abuse? Yes, but that exists everywhere.

 

[Lifeisawesome]

Cheese_sdc

Thought my question might be lost/buried in the thread and you might have missed it - just in case, I restated it here…

Agreed on your first point. On this latter point I am genuinely curious regarding your point of view. Just to reiterate - I am not in any way seeking to be argumentative - I just want to understand. What is your view of the magisterium? Is it optional to disobey in this case?

God Bless

 

[cheese_sdc]

Agreed on your first point. On this latter point I am genuinely curious regarding your point of view. Just to reiterate - I am not in any way seeking to be argumentative - I just want to understand. What is your view of the magisterium? Is it optional to disobey in this case?

There are actually very few times I disagree with the magisterium, and I was (am?) considering returning to Catholicism.

In the case of reiki, we don’t have a determination by the universal Church, we have a determination by the Bishops of the United States. Not quite on the same level. To be sure, it carries a lot of weight, and even though I left Catholicism the recent determination has caused me to re-examine reiki.

Now, when does a person step out and completely disagree? If a person has fully educated his conscience, studied the Church teaching, and all applicable writings etc., and a person is absolutely convinced that they are right. Then, I believe they can disagree.

 

[Lifeisawesome]

There are actually very few times I disagree with the magisterium, and I was (am?) considering returning to Catholicism.

In the case of reiki, we don’t have a determination by the universal Church, we have a determination by the Bishops of the United States. Not quite on the same level. To be sure, it carries a lot of weight, and even though I left Catholicism the recent determination has caused me to re-examine reiki.

Now, when does a person step out and completely disagree? If a person has fully educated his conscience, studied the Church teaching, and all applicable writings etc., and a person is absolutely convinced that they are right. Then, I believe they can disagree.

Thank you for your honesty. I hope you do come back. Can I ask another question to gain a sharper edge of clarity on your last statement about conscience? Thanks in advance for your patience…