Reincarnation and Catholicism

[Ahimsa]

The idea is not found in the Hebrew Scriptures, except where people have later reinterpretted certain sacred texts in order to make the Hebrew Scriptures conform to these eastern teachings.

So, are you saying that (1) reincarnation is explicitly denied in the Jewish scriptures; or (2) reincarnation is not explicitly mentioned in the Jewish scriptures?

 

[Ahimsa]

Hello Ahimsa.

Absolutely not! Re-incarnation would make the Passion of our Lord and Saviour un-necessary. If re-incarnation were true, it would mean that we could save ourselves from damnation by our OWN efforts. Jesus didn’t die for the fun of it! It’s also beleived by many that Jesus’ death wiped out a whole heap of Karma which again is utter nonsense.

Hi Noel,

It is actually inaccurate to say that “reincarnation” means that we alone can save ourselves from damnation. For instance, even the Hindus agree that grace (scroll down to “grace”) is necessary for salvation – and, yet, Hindus also accept reincarnation; and see no incompatibility between the two ideas.

 

[Sixtus]

What did Jesus teach about reincarnation?

What Christ said is what His Church teaches…

On the surface it appears there is no reincarnation. The CC appears to dismiss this concept.But feriting below the surface, we see a belief in ‘purgatory’ we do not now what shape or process this involves.

St Paul says that what we are to be in the future we do not yet know because it has not yet been revealed.

We do not know seems to be the message. Who knows, given the ‘deposit of faith’ time and enlightenment, belief may change. Only God knows.

But for now, it seems, there is no definitive basis for a belief in Reincarnation

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

So, are you saying that (1) reincarnation is explicitly denied in the Jewish scriptures; or (2) reincarnation is not explicitly mentioned in the Jewish scriptures?

First of all, I’m saying that the few references which do refer to a final judgement in the Hebrew Scriptures (and these in themselves are already rare) speak decisively of a final judgment. There is no record of an eternal cycle of rebirth anywhere to be found within them.

Second of all, I’m saying that those who have later read the doctrine of reincarnation into the Hebrew texts have essentially superimposed their own ideas onto texts that have really nothing to do with reincarnaiton and everything to do with a final eschatological expectation of final deliverance. The entirety of the Hebrew Scriptues seems to be focussed toward this final end to be honest.

So, to some extent, by analogy of the Hebrew Scriptures focus on the final deliverence, and with its lack of any reference to any eternal cycle of rebirth anywhere, I am saying that reincarnation is explicitly denied in the Jewish scriptures-- something which later Jewish theologians have consistently interpreted.

Likewise, I am also saying that reincarnation is not explicitly mentioned in the Jewish scriptures precisely because when it does speak of a final deliverance, it is silent on any kind of doctrine of reincarnation and is focused exclusively on the day of judgement.

I’m sorry. While I respect your right to believe in reincarnation, there’s really nothing within the Hebrew Scriptures, as far as I’m aware, which gives weight to this matter. If you could present something from the Hebrew Scriptures which teaches this doctrine, I would be interested in reading them. What I have read so far, however, seems to be loosely interpretted in order to make the doctrine of reincarnation fit into the sacred Hebrew texts.

 

[Ahimsa]

First of all, I’m saying that the few references which do refer to a final judgement in the Hebrew Scriptures (and these in themselves are already rare) speak decisively of a final judgment. There is no record of an eternal cycle of rebirth anywhere to be found within them.

There are ways to reconcile a ‘final judgement’ with reincarnation. And the absence of the mention of reincarnation would not necessarily imply a rejection of that idea.

Second of all, I’m saying that those who have later read the doctrine of reincarnation into the Hebrew texts have essentially superimposed their own ideas onto texts that have really nothing to do with reincarnaiton and everything to do with a final eschatological expectation of final deliverance. The entirety of the Hebrew Scriptues seems to be focussed toward this final end to be honest.

Again, this assumes that final deliverance is impossible in the context of reincarnation. Clearly, the Hasids would disagree.

So, to some extent, by analogy of the Hebrew Scriptures focus on the final deliverence, and with its lack of any reference to any eternal cycle of rebirth anywhere, I am saying that reincarnation is explicitly denied in the Jewish scriptures-- something which later Jewish theologians have consistently interpreted.

I think you’re stretching a bit here. If the Jewish scriptures themselves don’t explicitly reject reincarnation, then I would think the most one could say would be that they don’t explicitly reject reincarnation. Now, if you want to talk about what the Talmud says, or about what certain Jewish philosophers have concluded, then that’s another issue.

Likewise, I am also saying that reincarnation is not explicitly mentioned in the Jewish scriptures precisely because when it does speak of a final deliverance, it is silent on any kind of doctrine of reincarnation and is focused exclusively on the day of judgement.

Silence would not equal explicit rejection, I would think. Again, the existence of a day of judgement is not inherently inconsistent with a reincarnational metaphysics, as the Hasids, as well as certain Sufis, conclude.

I’m sorry. While I respect your right to believe in reincarnation, there’s really nothing within the Hebrew Scriptures, as far as I’m aware, which gives weight to this matter. If you could present something from the Hebrew Scriptures which teaches this doctrine, I would be interested in reading them. What I have read so far, however, seems to be loosely interpretted in order to make the doctrine of reincarnation fit into the sacred Hebrew texts.

I’m sure the Chabad Lubavitch would be happy to show you Jewish scripture that (understood Hasidically) indicate, even if implicitly, reincarnation. My only point (regarding the Jewish scripture theme) is that I agree with the Hasids, that Jewish scripture itself does not explicitly reject reincarnation, and thus one may entertain such an idea and remain faithful to the Jewish tradition, which is a combination of both written and oral tradition.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

That makes no sense.

Yes. It does make sense. I’ll explain why down below.

Contarini:

You implicitly admit in your later post that many medieval Jews believed in reincarnation (you imply that Maimonides rejected it, which may well be true but I’d like to see a citation).

First of all, I don’t recall saying that many Orthodox Jews accepted this. Orthodox Hasidic Jews do. But they are not the many within Judiasm.

Second of all, the most complete set of teachings regarding reincarnation did indeed emerge within Judaism during the medieval period as far as I can tell.

Prior to this time, there were really not much to go on within accepted Jewish writings. In fact, reincarnation is not mentioned at all in the Talmud-- and the Talmud is the most fundamental part of Judaism (it is essential for its practice).

Likewise, although there was a surge of thinking around the time of the Zohar, the largest body of Jewish literature concerning reincarnation seems to have emerged within around the last 750 years-- after people began to search for a doctrine they had previously not given much credence.

In other words, the medieval Jews who brought Asian teachings of reincarnation more into the body of Judaic thought were indeed importing something which was not readilly acceptable to ancient Judiasm (and, even if some doctrines can be used to support Christian theology, I simply reject any claim that the Zohar was written in the 1st century).

If there is indeed some large body of Jewish writings which explicitly taught this prior to the medieval period, back to the earliest parts of the Talmud, or even back to the Hebrew Scriptures themselves, I would be interested in reading them.

But if someone is going to try to explain to me that Exodus 21, where it says, “If you will purchase a Jewish servant, six years he will work, and the seventh year he will go free.” actually refers to reincarnation, I’m just going to reject their claim outright. The passage from Exodus 21 has nothing to do with reincarnation and everything to do with servitude.

Deuteronomy 25:5-10, Deuteronomy 33:6 and Isaiah 22:14 & 65:6 do not refer to reincarnaiton either.

I’m sorry. But if these are some of the passages that are going to be advanced as being suggestive of reincarnation, then I’m more than willing to advance many Hebrew texts which support Jesus as the Messiah. If ‘some’ Jews can accept these passages as being ‘proof texts’ for the reincarnation of the soul, I see no reason why these ‘same’ Jews cannot accept Christian ‘proof texts’ from the Hebrew Scriptures as being indicative of Jesus as the promised Messiah either. At least the later claim has some strong historical truth going for it.

Now, as far as I can tell, the minor works which did exist prior to this time, these Asian imports so to speak, seemed to not be readilly accepted within ancient Judiasm. And even though Karaite teachings, for example, existed prior to this time, they certainly weren’t the Orthodox teaching. And later Judaic writers (who are indeed accepted as Orthodox) did indeed speak out against these minor body of works prior to the medieval period as being problematic to Judaism.

For that matter, although he is often claimed to be one of its principal teachers, Ramban (not Rambam noted below) does not explicitly use the term reincarnation for example. This seems to be something which has been superimposed over Ramban’s teachings.

Moses Maimonides (not Ramban noted above) promoted the eternality of intellect and his emphasis was on the spiritual, ethereal nature of the world-to-come-- not the on-going in-between world supposedly going on prior to this world-to-come.

Furthermore, along with Rambam, reincarnation was indeed rejected by Judah HaLevi, Saadia ben Yosef, and Abraham ibn Daud-- and a great many others. So, according to them, even though our actions live on forever, they nonetheless believed that this doctrine of reincarnation introduced a striking blend of illogic and moral problems into the already difficult issue of theodicy.

Anyway, if you’re looking for an exaustive and detailed refution of this doctrine from within Judaism, don’t look toward me. I’m sure there are other Jews examining this forum who are more than qualified to speak on Judaism’s behalf than I am.

This thread is about reincarnation and Catholicism-- and the two concepts are simply not compatable.

So, to simply answer Ahimsa’s original question, “No. One could not hold such a view, and be within the Catholic framework.”

Aside from what I’ve already suggested, I’m not sure if there’s really much more that I can say in regards to this matter.

 

[nkelly]

Hi Noel,
It is actually inaccurate to say that “reincarnation” means that we alone can save ourselves from damnation. For instance, even the Hindus agree that grace (scroll down to “grace”) is necessary for salvation – and, yet, Hindus also accept reincarnation; and see no incompatibility between the two ideas.

Doesn’t re-incarnaton imply that there’s no judgement at the end of this life? So we can go back and try again and eventually “make the grade”. Ultimately it’s saying that we don’t need Jesus.

God bless,
Noel.

 

[Montalban]

I used to believe in reincarnation, but that was in a previous life.

 

[Ahimsa]

Doesn’t re-incarnaton imply that there’s no judgement at the end of this life? So we can go back and try again and eventually “make the grade”. Ultimately it’s saying that we don’t need Jesus. God bless, Noel.

OK, but think about this: if reincarnation happens, then perhaps Jesus is the one who frees you from reincarnation? Among those Christians who do believe in reincarnation, it’s a pretty standard belief that following Jesus Christ ends the reincarnation cycle.

 

[Ahimsa]

I used to believe in reincarnation, but that was in a previous life.

Indeed.

Reincarnation in a Christian context wouldn’t mean that everyone currently alive on earth would undergo reincarnation after the end of their current lives. For many people, this would be their last life on earth – no more reincarnation for them.

 

[FCEGM]

Indeed.

Reincarnation in a Christian context wouldn’t mean that everyone currently alive on earth would undergo reincarnation after the end of their current lives. For many people, this would be their last life on earth – no more reincarnation for them.

“Christian revelation excludes reincarnation, and speaks of a fulfillment which man is called to achieve in the course of a single earthly existence.” Pope John Paul II

catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=198

And this article offers a good critique of the subject:

catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=547

 

[Ahimsa]

“Christian revelation excludes reincarnation, and speaks of a fulfillment which man is called to achieve in the course of a single earthly existence.” Pope John Paul II

I agree that we are called to fulfill our destiny in this earthly life.

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Mind you, I’m only proposing that since Christ eliminated reincarnation, that it is now true that reincarnation doesn’t exist.

But that’s not what the Catechism is saying. The Catechism is very clear that there is just one birth and one death (that is, physical birth and physical death on earth) both before and after the coming of Christ.

Ahimsa:

But the possibility that reincarnation existed before Christ did His work, is what I’m talking about.

If that’s something that you personally believe, I’m not going to debate it. But if that’s something that you believe Catholicism actually teaches, or may possibly allow for, then no.

Catholicism believes in just one birth and one death (that is, physical birth and physical death on earth) both before and after the coming of Christ.

The final judgement of the soul has already been covered. But, in addition to this, since Catholicism also believes that the soul is created at the person’s conception in the womb, this likewise does not allow for people within Catholicism to meander into the doctrine of reincarnation prior to their conception either.

 

[adventbeliever]

“It is given to man to live once and after that the judgment.” Hebrews 9:27. “The dead know not anything.” Ecc.9:6,10.

If the dead are already enjoying the bliss of heaven or writhing in the flames of hell, what need of a future judgment?

Will the unsaved be summoned from the place of torment to receive sentence from the Judge of all the earth: “Depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire”? Matt.25:21,41.

 

[adventistnomore]

adventibeliever,

You should probably start a new thread to challenge the Catholic understanding of death.