Reincarnation counterpoints

[Trevor_Stamm]

Hello all,

I want some (name removed by moderator)ut on the subject of reincarnation from more learned people then I confronting this issue, mainly when in discussions with eastern practices.

Such as what are the main counterpoints would a Catholic apologetic take?

Also when Jesus resurrected Lazarus, St. Peter resurrected Tabitha, and the people St. Vincent resurrected. Doesn’t the fact that resurrections were done disprove the theory of reincarnation altogether? The eastern practices teach the soul/spirit leaves the body upon death to enter in the cycle again and come back into the world into a new body. A clear contradiction to what has happened.

Thoughts?

 

[MarcoPolo]

You are correct. In the concept of reincarnation, a person comes back as someone/something else. In the concept of the Resurrection the person doesn’t become someone else. The Catechism paragraph that denies reincarnation is #1013.

The idea of life generations in Eastern philosophy is, in broad terms, cyclical. One keeps coming back anew in this world of suffering and the way to escape it is to achieve various theories of nirvana and essentially “escape” reality, escape the cycle. While a Christian can find some commonality with, say, a Buddhist, on the corruption of the world and the virtue of enduring suffering, the difference comes when comparing life generations. In Christianity, the concept of life is linear. There is continuity from this life into the next. We are the same “person” in heaven, hell, or in the eternal heavenly New Jerusalem.

 

[dmar198]

Hello all,

I want some (name removed by moderator)ut on the subject of reincarnation from more learned people then I confronting this issue, mainly when in discussions with eastern practices.

Such as what are the main counterpoints would a Catholic apologetic take?

Also when Jesus resurrected Lazarus, St. Peter resurrected Tabitha, and the people St. Vincent resurrected. Doesn’t the fact that resurrections were done disprove the theory of reincarnation altogether? The eastern practices teach the soul/spirit leaves the body upon death to enter in the cycle again and come back into the world into a new body. A clear contradiction to what has happened.

Thoughts?

Reincarnation supporters often say that your species in the next life is a reward or a punishment for your conduct in this life: if you’re bad, you become a slug, if you’re good, you become perhaps an angel, or a very rich man with lots of wives.

Now here’s 3 arguments against Reincarnationism:

1. Since we cannot remember our previous lives, there is no way we can be mindful of the reward or punishment. Punishment is not punishment if we do not realize we are being punished, and a reward is not a reward if we do not realize it is a reward.
2. Suppose you become a slug in the next life. A slug cannot sin or do good works; it has no moral character. So how do you get out of that state? Leave a perfectly slimy trail? It takes a mind to choose the right, so reincarnation does not account for the lower life forms. There are two alternatives: the Christian doctrine is that the soul (rational or non-rational) is directly created by God, a rational soul for a man and an irrational soul for an animal. The Reincarnationist idea is that the soul is not created by God but always existed and continually returns in a different species. But the Reincarnationist idea cannot account for the lower life forms, therefore there is only one alternative: the Christian one. That proves the Christian doctrine true: the soul is directly created by God in the lower life forms, and if in them, then reincarnation is unnecessary in the higher life forms too, since there is already a proven method for getting a soul: direct creation by God.
3. Reincarnation posits that all souls have always existed and are just returning, continually, in various bodies; but there are more and more bodies being born all the time. At some point, the number of bodies must exceed the number of souls who have ever existed. Then what? Do the bodies just get no souls, because nobody has died yet to come back re-incarnate? Or do the bodies get souls directly created by some Being above us all?

Reincarnation always falls apart, in a number of ways it actually proves itself unable to account for the creation of people, body and soul. Only the Christian understanding can account for the way the world works, the way people come into existence, and, ultimately, only Christianity can account for the existence of anything at all.

 

[Yab_Yum]

1. Since we cannot remember our previous lives, there is no way we can be mindful of the reward or punishment. Punishment is not punishment if we do not realize we are being punished, and a reward is not a reward if we do not realize it is a reward.
2. Suppose you become a slug in the next life. A slug cannot sin or do good works; it has no moral character. So how do you get out of that state? Leave a perfectly slimy trail? It takes a mind to choose the right, so reincarnation does not account for the lower life forms. There are two alternatives: the Christian doctrine is that the soul (rational or non-rational) is directly created by God, a rational soul for a man and an irrational soul for an animal. The Reincarnationist idea is that the soul is not created by God but always existed and continually returns in a different species. But the Reincarnationist idea cannot account for the lower life forms, therefore there is only one alternative: the Christian one. That proves the Christian doctrine true: the soul is directly created by God in the lower life forms, and if in them, then reincarnation is unnecessary in the higher life forms too, since there is already a proven method for getting a soul: direct creation by God.
3. Reincarnation posits that all souls have always existed and are just returning, continually, in various bodies; but there are more and more bodies being born all the time. At some point, the number of bodies must exceed the number of souls who have ever existed. Then what? Do the bodies just get no souls, because nobody has died yet to come back re-incarnate? Or do the bodies get souls directly created by some Being above us all?

Devil’s Advocate:

1. Amnesia could be its own punishment
2. How do you know for sure?
3. How much does a dream weigh?

 

[dmar198]

Devil’s Advocate:

1. Amnesia could be its own punishment

Some punishment! You would never know. Imagine someone punishing you by hiding something you’ve never seen in a place where you’ll never find it, and never telling you about it.

1. How do you know for sure?

Because the premises are true and the conclusion follows logically. 1) Either re-incarnation or direct creation accounts for lower life forms.
2) Not reincarnation.
3) Therefore, direct creation is a method for creating souls.
4) Either reincarnation or direct creation accounts for higher life forms.
5) It is more probable that a known method accounts for X than an unknown and unproved method.
6) There is no evidence for reincarnation in higher life forms.
7) Therefore, it is more probable that direct creation is the cause of higher life forms.

1. How much does a dream weigh?

Not much. Even if life forms are dreams, though, their dream-souls are either directly dreamed or they are dreams continually entering into new dream-bodies. So the dream theory does not overcome the problem.

 

[Trevor_Stamm]

Thank you, dmar. Very helpful. I was part of a eastern practice for a few years and the whole reincarnation thing never really made since, what you’ve said puts it in real prespective. Also I like using the Ressurection of our Lord as a counterpoint as well, never had an honest answer out of anyone in eastern practices about that other then denying that it happened, which is easy to counter.

Pax Domini

 

[Yab_Yum]

Imagine someone punishing you by hiding something you’ve never seen in a place where you’ll never find it, and never telling you about it.

Sounds kind of like a nightmarish form of punishment to me.

1. Not reincarnation.

Circular.

they are dreams continually entering into new dream-bodies.

Exactly. Presto, reincarnation problem solved.

The fact is there is no logical objection to reincarnation, only an objection from faith.