christianity has been the most violent religion in history,out of all religions…you cant even compare hinduism with christianity on that point.The politics of today are something new and they havent been there always,historically speaking hinduism has worked perfect with other religions,specially islam…thats how i see it.
The teachings of Christ and His apostles seem pretty clear in that regard:
I did not say Christians are not violent, I said the religion teaches non-violence. Nor did I claim anything regarding politics of today.
My claim is actually that they are mostly disinterested in such dialogs about their faith vs someone else’s. They don’t look for converts as a rule. I also said that you would be hard pressed to find a Hindu on this website saying anything bad about anyone’s religion. If you have seen that happen, then I am surprised. My initial response that drew you into my conversation was my response to someone saying that there was no morality to Hinduism. My assertion is that there is morality in Hinduism. That is my point, on which I am entirely correct. If you read that to mean that I think Hindus are nobler than anyone else, then you either misread me or I failed to properly express my point. There was at that time and is at this time no intent on my part to become involved in any mud slinging. I have faith that you will agree with me on the value in keeping this discourse friendly while politely expressing our views.
Any violence is bad violence. Once the threshold into violence has been crossed by any group, the amount or frequency of it is of little consequence. There has been enough “pillage and slaughter” in this world to go around. Over time, Muslims have been wronged by Christians and Christians have been wronged by Muslims. The question is when the animosity can stop. We are all worthy of one another’s respect. I am looking forward to the day when we can all talk on these forums without re-living the past. I bet that if Sufjon went out for coffee with Bosnian Muslim and Nine Two, we would all three find that we are fine people who can have a discussion without all of this. The point of this discussion is simply reincarnation. A religion is neither lesser nor greater on the merit that it subscribes to reincarnation or doesn’t. But we can discuss it I think. I would rather have no discussion than for us to fight.
I am not quite sure where I have been mudslinging, please do tell me. I simply take exception to the claim that Hindu’s somehow have more respect for other religions than others do. They don’t. In theory they are the same as most, and in practice they are the same as most. The fact that there are persecutions of other religions by Hindu’s shows that they very much are looking for converts, or at the very least feel it wrong for someone to convert away, which again puts into question the respect for the beliefs of others. I completely agree, and have never challenged your view that Hinduism teaches a morality. I’ve only challenged the idea that they are more respectful of other traditions than other traditions are of them.
I was simply responding to what Bosnian Muslim, the OP, said to me. I never claimed some amount of violence is acceptable, I dispute the idea that Christianity is more violent than any other religion. If you truly believe that any violence is too much then you should direct that line of thought to the OP, as I didn’t make the claim.
Going back and forth about who killed more of who. I saw that as a bit less than congenial. I don’t participate in that sort of thing.
“Please, please! This is supposed to be a happy occasion! Let’s not bicker and argue about who killed who! We’re here today to witness the union of two young people in the joyful bond of holy wedlock! Unfortunately, one of them, my son Herbert, has just fallen to his death…”
But, I like to think of myself, not as having lost a son, but as having gained a daughter.
And when did I try to do that? I responded to Bosnian_Muslim doing that by asking for proof, but I never claimed Hindus killed more people than someone else, only that they are just as guilty as anyone else and the idea that has crept into western society that Eastern Religion is somehow more peaceful is patently false.
You did, but you kept qualifying it. But unqualified, as you say it here, I’ll accept that answer.
It seems then that Islam is just trying to catch up?
I think what he was saying is that there isn’t much of a history of Hindu wars of conquest or persecution. Other than some attacks by some extremists recently, even these are not on a scale enough to call a war or a holy war. This is his point. He is most correct, and it is not even an argument. Does it mean Hindus are better people? Of course not.
This is not an indication of looking for converts. This is a very cultural thing and takes better than a casual glance to understand. It comes from century upon century of people showing up in your home land telling you that you have to be saved, when you have good reason through your own religion to feel that you don’t. Also, the violence is not widespread, because the billion or so Hindus in India would have no trouble doing away with 2 or 3 percent of the population that is Christian. If this was a general sentiment, all Christians would be gone tomorrow. Thankfully it is not. Anyway, to them Christianity is a very “in your face” religion. The reaction by a few wrong headed people who attack Christians is not to convert them, is in response to this sentiment. It is not the right thing to do, but you know good and well that a few Christians don’t build a church in a non-Christian country and then keep to themselves. You know what they are there doing - they’re trying to spread and save people. The problem is that it will never work in India on much of a scale, and it is very annoying to Indians.
Part of my point was that this was not true, that they have those things in their history as well.
Hi Nine Two: Yes, they do, but not on much of a scale. What you are seeing now is not an evangelizing effort, but a reaction to something people don’t want in their culture. This is not inconsistent with my initial point that they will leave you to your religion and not try to change you. Yes, there are some Hindu zealots running around right now, but they are an ignorant element of that society who are trying to push Christians out, not change them. Like in any religion, you have the people who take their faith seriously and study it as well as practice it (or try to). Then you have the folks who have religion just as a tradition - you know, show up for certain festivals and perform certain rites without really understanding them. The very large majority of Hindus in India are more prone to ignore the religious aspects of their Christian neighbors lives. If you ask them about Krishna or something Hindu, they tend to shy away from you until they can see that you are seriously interested, and then they will usually happily tell you. But I honestly haven’t lived among many who would approach you about it unless you asked. When I was first learning Hindi and Sanskrit, I had to drag information out of them on correct pronunciation and meaning. At first I took it that they were arrogant, but now I see it more from their view.
But again, I’m not talking just of modern day attitudes, and I’m sure I’ve made that clear. Yes, the specific examples I gave in my first post were modern day, but I specified history as well. The Buddhists and the Sikhs, for example, faced trouble with Hindus.Hi Nine Two: Yes, they do, but not on much of a scale. What you are seeing now is not an evangelizing effort, but a reaction to something people don’t want in their culture. This is not inconsistent with my initial point that they will leave you to your religion and not try to change you. Yes, there are some Hindu zealots running around right now, but they are an ignorant element of that society who are trying to push Christians out, not change them. Like in any religion, you have the people who take their faith seriously and study it as well as practice it (or try to). Then you have the folks who have religion just as a tradition - you know, show up for certain festivals and perform certain rites without really understanding them. The very large majority of Hindus in India are more prone to ignore the religious aspects of their Christian neighbors lives. If you ask them about Krishna or something Hindu, they tend to shy away from you until they can see that you are seriously interested, and then they will usually happily tell you. But I honestly haven’t lived among many who would approach you about it unless you asked. When I was first learning Hindi and Sanskrit, I had to drag information out of them on correct pronunciation and meaning. At first I took it that they were arrogant, but now I see it more from their view.
Anyway, we have strayed long and far from the topic of reincarnation, but I have truly enjoyed talking to you. Although we haven’t always agreed on everything, I am glad to have met you.
Your friend,
Sufjon
