Reincarnation

[GEddie]

I think the philosophical case for reincarnation is indisputable. Anecdotal evidence and the beauty of the idea are just icing on the cake.

There is no beauty to it and the anecdotes about it should be vetted as strictly as near-death experiences, etc.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Dorothy]

I think the philosophical case for reincarnation is indisputable. Anecdotal evidence and the beauty of the idea are just icing on the cake.

The anecdotal evidence can be provided by the fallen angels, who have been around long enough.

May all of us be led to the fullness of true beauty…God’s revelation of Himself.

 

[Perplexity]

There is no beauty to it and the anecdotes about it should be vetted as strictly as near-death experiences, etc.

ICXC NIKA

There is no beauty in the idea that your eternal fate could be decided by a split second decision overwhelmingly influenced by factors you had no control over. There is no beauty in the idea that you only get one life – no matter how practically impossible that makes it for you – to grow in virtue, and truly develop an understanding of your final end. I find the idea of resurrection aesthetically ugly, and frightening.

On the other hand, life is rich in goodness and opportunity. If life is itself beautiful, then it is no less beautiful the second or third time it is lived than the first.

 

[Dorothy]

There is no beauty in the idea that your eternal fate could be decided by a split second decision overwhelmingly influenced by factors you had no control over. There is no beauty in the idea that you only get one life – no matter how practically impossible that makes it for you – to grow in virtue, and truly develop an understanding of your final end. I find the idea of resurrection aesthetically ugly, and frightening.

On the other hand, life is rich in goodness and opportunity. If life is itself beautiful, then it is no less beautiful the second or third time it is lived than the first.

There is overwhelming beauty in the one life given to us by our Creator, who has provided for us a Redeemer, and sent us the Holy Spirit to empower us. Because of the Precious Blood of Jesus, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, we can have the grace to pick up our cross and follow Him, and by the help of His grace that we pray earnestly for to live with the Blessed Trinity for all eternity in an everlasting ecstasy of love.

May all come to know and love Him.

 

[meltzerboy]

There is no beauty in the idea that your eternal fate could be decided by a split second decision overwhelmingly influenced by factors you had no control over. There is no beauty in the idea that you only get one life – no matter how practically impossible that makes it for you – to grow in virtue, and truly develop an understanding of your final end. I find the idea of resurrection aesthetically ugly, and frightening.

On the other hand, life is rich in goodness and opportunity. If life is itself beautiful, then it is no less beautiful the second or third time it is lived than the first.

I think there is beauty in ALL theological arguments regarding the afterlife, including reincarnation. And I find beauty in the belief that this is it and there is no afterlife at all, neither heaven nor hell: beauty and (tragic) nobility.

 

[superwimp]

Hello,

With regards to the several Hebrew quotes:

Hebrews 9:27
Just as it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment, so also Christ, offered once to take away the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to take away sin but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await him.
If God has chosen not to tell us about the afterlife where did the Hebrew writer get this information? If God did decide to make this earth shattering announcement about the afterlife then why was it slipped in as part of a discussion about Jewish sacrifices?

With regards to the notion that your going to heaven after your life here because you believe in this or that, the book of Acts is chock full of mini-sermons given to potential converts.  They promised salvation but never heaven. To them being saved meant receiving the Holy Ghost.  Similarly the term eternal life meant being at one.

JN 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Another comment was made that you lose everything between lifetimes. At least in the version I believe in we retain parts of our earlier lives. When the apostles asked Jesus to clarify some questions with regards to Karma they asked him with regards to a blind man who sinned, the individual or his parents. It was to show God’s glory. The way I interpret this is blindness was something the individual had to work through for his own growth and he was also providing opportunities for others to help the individual carry his cross.

Dorothy>>>we can have the grace to pick up our cross and follow Him, and by the help of His grace that we pray earnestly for to live with the Blessed Trinity for all eternity in an everlasting ecstasy of love.<<<
You can pick up your cross and follow him regardless of whether or not you believe in reincarnation. If the second part of your comment is true and you spend all your prayer time praying for your salvation then perhaps a belief in reincarnation might help you.

 

[Dorothy]

Hello,

With regards to the several Hebrew quotes:

Hebrews 9:27
Just as it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment, so also Christ, offered once to take away the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to take away sin but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await him.
If God has chosen not to tell us about the afterlife where did the Hebrew writer get this information? If God did decide to make this earth shattering announcement about the afterlife then why was it slipped in as part of a discussion about Jewish sacrifices?

With regards to the notion that your going to heaven after your life here because you believe in this or that, the book of Acts is chock full of mini-sermons given to potential converts.  They promised salvation but never heaven. To them being saved meant receiving the Holy Ghost.  Similarly the term eternal life meant being at one.

JN 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Another comment was made that you lose everything between lifetimes. At least in the version I believe in we retain parts of our earlier lives. When the apostles asked Jesus to clarify some questions with regards to Karma they asked him with regards to a blind man who sinned, the individual or his parents. It was to show God’s glory. The way I interpret this is blindness was something the individual had to work through for his own growth and he was also providing opportunities for others to help the individual carry his cross.

Dorothy>>>we can have the grace to pick up our cross and follow Him, and by the help of His grace that we pray earnestly for to live with the Blessed Trinity for all eternity in an everlasting ecstasy of love.<<<
You can pick up your cross and follow him regardless of whether or not you believe in reincarnation. If the second part of your comment is true and you spend all your prayer time praying for your salvation then perhaps a belief in reincarnation might help you.

I pray for many things in my quiet prayer time, and there are different ways to pray while doing necessary things. A relationship with the Lord begins here and now. The Kingdom of Heaven begins in the here and now. In the next world joy and love is magnified a thousand times for those who repent of sin and grew in the Lord. (less of me, more of Him).

A belief in reincarnation will not help me at all, as it is non-existent.

The Precious Blood of Jesus is enough for one life.

Peace,

Dorothy

 

[GEddie]

• 1 Dorothy

 

[AbideWithMe]

I pray for many things in my quiet prayer time, and there are different ways to pray while doing necessary things. A relationship with the Lord begins here and now. The Kingdom of Heaven begins in the here and now. In the next world joy and love is magnified a thousand times for those who repent of sin and grew in the Lord. (less of me, more of Him).

A belief in reincarnation will not help me at all, as it is non-existent.

The Precious Blood of Jesus is enough for one life.

Peace,

Dorothy

So well said, Dorothy. We begin, now, seeing the Creator through a glass darkly…but then, face to face, as St. Paul wrote in anticipation.

 

[Vico]

Hello,

With regards to the several Hebrew quotes:

Hebrews 9:27
Just as it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment, so also Christ, offered once to take away the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to take away sin but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await him.
If God has chosen not to tell us about the afterlife where did the Hebrew writer get this information? If God did decide to make this earth shattering announcement about the afterlife then why was it slipped in as part of a discussion about Jewish sacrifices?

With regards to the notion that your going to heaven after your life here because you believe in this or that, the book of Acts is chock full of mini-sermons given to potential converts.  They promised salvation but never heaven. To them being saved meant receiving the Holy Ghost.  Similarly the term eternal life meant being at one.

JN 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Another comment was made that you lose everything between lifetimes. At least in the version I believe in we retain parts of our earlier lives. When the apostles asked Jesus to clarify some questions with regards to Karma they asked him with regards to a blind man who sinned, the individual or his parents. It was to show God’s glory. The way I interpret this is blindness was something the individual had to work through for his own growth and he was also providing opportunities for others to help the individual carry his cross.

Dorothy>>>we can have the grace to pick up our cross and follow Him, and by the help of His grace that we pray earnestly for to live with the Blessed Trinity for all eternity in an everlasting ecstasy of love.<<<
You can pick up your cross and follow him regardless of whether or not you believe in reincarnation. If the second part of your comment is true and you spend all your prayer time praying for your salvation then perhaps a belief in reincarnation might help you.

Catholic Encyclopedia has this:

Josephus tells us that transmigration was a doctrine of the Pharisees, who taught that the righteous should be allowed to return to life, while the wicked were to be doomed to eternal imprisonment. It was their gloomy conception of Sheol, like the gloomy Greek conception of Hades, that forced them to this shift for a compensation to virtue. On the other hand, some of the Talmudists invoke endless transmigration as a penalty for crime.
…
How far these and such like descriptions were really believed, how far they were conscious fable, is difficult to determine. That there was a fairly widespread belief in the doctrine of pre-existence in some form, seems likely enough.
…
where the belief in a personal Providence is unfamiliar or but feebly grasped, some form of metempsychosis, understood as a kind of ethical evolutionary process, is almost a necessary makeshift.
…
St. Jerome tells us that metempsychosis was a secret doctrine of certain sectaries in his day, but it was too evidently opposed to the Catholic doctrine of Redemption ever to obtain a settled footing.

Maher, M. (1911). Metempsychosis. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. : newadvent.org/cathen/10234d.htm

 

[Dorothy]

GEddie and AbideWithMe,

Thank you for the affirmation.

 

[meltzerboy]

Catholic Encyclopedia has this:

Josephus tells us that transmigration was a doctrine of the Pharisees, who taught that the righteous should be allowed to return to life, while the wicked were to be doomed to eternal imprisonment. It was their gloomy conception of Sheol, like the gloomy Greek conception of Hades, that forced them to this shift for a compensation to virtue. On the other hand, some of the Talmudists invoke endless transmigration as a penalty for crime.
…
How far these and such like descriptions were really believed, how far they were conscious fable, is difficult to determine. That there was a fairly widespread belief in the doctrine of pre-existence in some form, seems likely enough.
…
where the belief in a personal Providence is unfamiliar or but feebly grasped, some form of metempsychosis, understood as a kind of ethical evolutionary process, is almost a necessary makeshift.
…
St. Jerome tells us that metempsychosis was a secret doctrine of certain sectaries in his day, but it was too evidently opposed to the Catholic doctrine of Redemption ever to obtain a settled footing.

Maher, M. (1911). Metempsychosis. In The Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. : newadvent.org/cathen/10234d.htm

The different beliefs in Judaism arose no doubt because the Hebrew Bible was not clear on the issue. Thus we have transmigration, Sheol, later Gehenna (Gehinnom) more akin to the Greek Hades and the Christian and Muslim Hell, and so on. Some of the commentaries in the Talmud also, as you have noted, express their own views. Still, as I have remarked in other threads, the World to Come, in whichever form, is not the main preoccupation of Judaism.

 

[Darryl_B]

I have read that transmigration was developed as an idea to answer the most problematic question of what becomes of the souls of those taken so young.

 

[ericc]

St. Paul does away with the entire concept of Reincarnation:

Hebrews 9: 27-28

We die once. Since we only die once, reincarnation is impossible.

Interestingly, Malachian prophecy Mal 4:5 point towards some sort of a “re-appearance” of Elijah which was indicated in Luke 1:17 as John the Baptist. In Matthew 11:14 and other various verses, Jesus confirmed that John was indeed the "Elijah who is to come ".

Notwithstanding that, reincarnation can be seen to be a different sort of thing from the above verses. Luke 1:17 said John would come “in the spirit and power of Elijah”. One possessing the spirit and powers of another is different from a rebirth(reincarnation) as the same person. So I read it as John the Baptist being himself but possessing the spirit /powers of Elijah. John himself deny being Elijah in John 1:21.

 

[ericc]

I’v always liked the concept of reincarnation, but no, it doesn’t happen nor is it a teaching

Reincarnation makes no sense nor serve any purpose.

1. Reincarnation typically assumes no retained knowledge of past lives. If one doesn’t remember anything of the past, the often claimed purpose of finishing unfinished businesses makes no sense. Especially when the involved actors/actresses of the past lives have moved on i.e. dead. The reincarnated can not do anything to redress past wrongs, seek revenge etc. Time moves on regardless.
2. There is no guarantee that the reincarnated life will do a better job at living the next round. It could be worse. Who is policing this anyway? It may be just a silly excuse to get more time to know God. Apparently 1 lifetime wasn’t enough for some. More lifetimes may mean more time to enjoy whatever they are currently doing. Knowing God is not on the priority list. If it is, the time is “now”, not “later”.

 

[ericc]

I have read that transmigration was developed as an idea to answer the most problematic question of what becomes of the souls of those taken so young.

The souls of the young are spotless. So they are not disadvantaged. Why put them through the grind of Earthly subsistence?

Earthly time has no bearing on soul -time which is eternal.

 

[Dorothy]

Interestingly, Malachian prophecy Mal 4:5 point towards some sort of a “re-appearance” of Elijah which was indicated in Luke 1:17 as John the Baptist. In Matthew 11:14 and other various verses, Jesus confirmed that John was indeed the "Elijah who is to come ".

Notwithstanding that, reincarnation can be seen to be a different sort of thing from the above verses. Luke 1:17 said John would come “in the spirit and power of Elijah”. One possessing the spirit and powers of another is different from a rebirth(reincarnation) as the same person. So I read it as John the Baptist being himself but possessing the spirit /powers of Elijah. John himself deny being Elijah in John 1:21.

That is correct.

Therein lies the deception of Edgar Cayce who wrongly believed that Elijah had returned in John the Baptist. May our Lord Jesus Christ lead those who are caught up in that erroneous belief, into the fullness of His truth!

How important the virtue of obedience to the legitimate authority of the Church in faith and morals is!

 

[superwimp]

Hello ericc & Dorothy,

ericc>>>Notwithstanding that, reincarnation can be seen to be a different sort of thing from the above verses. Luke 1:17 said John would come “in the spirit and power of Elijah”. One possessing the spirit and powers of another is different from a rebirth(reincarnation) as the same person. So I read it as John the Baptist being himself but possessing the spirit /powers of Elijah. John himself deny being Elijah in John 1:21.<<<

The problem with the Luke 1:17 verse is it is a misquote of Mal 4:5. Whether Luke did the misquoting or if someone after him did, the words spirit and power are not in the Malachi prophecy.
A problem that is often encountered within the reincarnation community is the firm belief that the individual member was someone significant during a previous life. No one knows who they were in there past lives. Claiming to be Elijah would have both created a stumbling block for John, and also drawn attention away from the saviour.

Reincarnation typically assumes no retained knowledge of past lives.<<< Where did you get this information? We believe some knowledge is retained at a subconscious level.

dorothy>>>How important the virtue of obedience to the legitimate authority of the Church in faith and morals is! <<<

This sounds like a bumper sticker claim. Why do you consider it a virtue to be obidient to the faith and morals of the church?

 

[ericc]

Hello ericc & Dorothy,

The problem with the Luke 1:17 verse is it is a misquote of Mal 4:5.  Whether Luke did the misquoting or if someone after him did, the words spirit and power are not in the Malachi prophecy.

You assume there is a misquote. Or that Mal 4:5 must be in the form of a reincarnation. Or a bodily resurrection of Elijah. Mal 4:5 only says that God will sent Elijah. It didn’t specify the format how that is done. Prophecy language is seldom that specific.

But Elijah didn’t die. He was taken up to heaven in a flaming chariot 2 Kings 2:9 -12. So that rules out reincarnation.

A problem that is often encountered within the reincarnation community is the firm belief that the individual member was someone significant during a previous life. No one knows who they were in there past lives. Claiming to be Elijah would have both created a stumbling block for John, and also drawn attention away from the saviour.

Elijah is sent to make way for the Lord. I don’t see how Elijah can eclipse the Lord. And Jesus affirmed that John is the Elijah who is to come. John declares he is not Elijah. So, you have to choose between either John lying about who he is or that that Jesus was incorrect about who John is in order for your reincarnation theory to hold. If one has to insist parts of the Bible to be in error in order for one’s explanation to hold, it is not a very good explanation.

The issue with reincarnation claims of being someone significant in the past could be a hidden longing to be SOMEBODY or get attention. How many have verifiable claims to have memories of a bug, worm or a dog or a fish or a whale in their past lives?

Reincarnation typically assumes no retained knowledge of past lives.<<< Where did you get this information? We believe some knowledge is retained at a subconscious level.

Perhaps you could share which school of thought adopts that knowledge is retained at the subconscious level. Buddhism? Hinduism? How was that determined to be true and evidence to support that view. And somehow through some mechanism, memories of the distant past of a dead person can float, migrate to a totally unconnected person. Even if memories are transferable, it does not mean that reincarnation is true. It only means that memories are transferable. How would one know the subconscious is not just neurons misfiring, brain chemicals reacting and causing us to have weird dreams which we know are not real.

For reincarnation to be true, the proponent must show that it is the same soul being injected in a new body. Not just memories. Isn’t it weird that the soul of someone long dead(which was the product of some parents) can hijack the soul of a newly created being of totally new parents? Or is soul creation non-dependent on who the parents are? Who polices or administer this mechanism?

 

[Techno2000]

Reincarnation makes no sense nor serve any purpose.

1. Reincarnation typically assumes no retained knowledge of past lives. If one doesn’t remember anything of the past, the often claimed purpose of finishing unfinished businesses makes no sense. Especially when the involved actors/actresses of the past lives have moved on i.e. dead. The reincarnated can not do anything to redress past wrongs, seek revenge etc. Time moves on regardless.
2. There is no guarantee that the reincarnated life will do a better job at living the next round. It could be worse. Who is policing this anyway? It may be just a silly excuse to get more time to know God. Apparently 1 lifetime wasn’t enough for some. More lifetimes may mean more time to enjoy whatever they are currently doing. Knowing God is not on the priority list. If it is, the time is “now”, not “later”.

Right ,and where did all these billions of souls come from that we see today when mankind only started out with two souls…billions of people are living their lives without the benefits of Reincarnation .