Rejecting December 25th

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

With regard to why Dec 25 or Jan 6, I remember reading somewhere, though I forget where, that the date of the Annunciation (and therefore the Conception) of Christ was determined according to conjecture regarding the date of the Crucifixion. According to some Platonic notion, apparently, the perfect man dies on an anniversary of his conception. So the difference arises from speculation with regard to the precise date of the Crucifixion: project 9 months forward, and there’s the Nativity!

Under the Mercy,
Mark

Deo Gratias!

 

[lak611]

Latter-Day Saints believe that the actual date for the birth of Christ is April 6th of our modern calendar. Coincidentally this is the date of the founding of the LDS Church. There is a somewhat-clear citation for this in the LDS Doctrine and Covenants (somewhat clear because it admits of some small degree of ambiguity). Sorry but I don’t have the citation handy.

Latter-Day Saints (aka Mormons) are not Protestants. They do not believe that Jesus is God either.

 

[flameburns623]

Latter-Day Saints (aka Mormons) are not Protestants.

The OP did not ask for “Protestants” but for “Christian faiths”. Speaking broadly, and not by strict theological guidelines, the Mormons qualify. (They certainly aren’t a Buddhist faith or an Islamic faith, for example). Jesus Christ is a central figure in their beliefs. Their conception of Him is theologically imperfect and even outright wrong but He is still a central figure of their belief-system.

They do not believe that Jesus is God either.

Actually they do. They just happen to be henotheists who don’t believe Jesus is the supreme God to be worshipped by earth-dwelling humans. OUR God is Elohim, who lives on Planet Kolob.:bowdown: Jesus is our elder spirit-brother, but He HAS achieved a place within the LDS Godhead.:bowdown2: As opposed to our other spirit-brother Lucifer, who has been consigned to Outer Darkness for wanting to save the entire human race.:tsktsk:

Not that any of this has much to do with the date of Christ’s birth y’understand. But you brought the issue up so thought I’d respond. Now back to our topic . . . .

 

[Damascus]

QUOTE=flameburns623;1745213]The OP did not ask for “Protestants” but for “Christian faiths”. Speaking broadly, and not by strict theological guidelines, the Mormons qualify. (They certainly aren’t a Buddhist faith or an Islamic faith, for example). Jesus Christ is a central figure in their beliefs. Their conception of Him is theologically imperfect and even outright wrong but He is still a central figure of their belief-system.

May I respectfully disagree with this being the only qualifyer? JW’s also claim Jesus to be central to their beliefs somehow.

Actually they do. They just happen to be henotheists who don’t believe Jesus is the supreme God to be worshipped by earth-dwelling humans. OUR God is Elohim, who lives on Planet Kolob.:bowdown: Jesus is our elder spirit-brother, but He HAS achieved a place within the LDS Godhead.:bowdown2: As opposed to our other spirit-brother Lucifer, who has been consigned to Outer Darkness for wanting to save the entire human race.:tsktsk:

You have just condemned them by your statements. Effectively, you only reiterated that they also deny the Trinity.

They can not be called Christian if they deny the Trinity. Its that simple.
I am sorry if this is does not meet your approval, but there are times when the Truth must override pure speculation.

Not that any of this has much to do with the date of Christ’s birth y’understand. But you brought the issue up so thought I’d respond. Now back to our topic . . . .

Our topic is Christians, and if the Trinity is denied, we can not mention them.

I am cautious on this note. Its a bit too generous to include those that say they know HIM, yet deny HIM. To deny one aspect of Christ is to deny him in entirety.

 

[lak611]

They can not be called Christian if they deny the Trinity. Its that simple.
I am sorry if this is does not meet your approval, but there are times when the Truth must override pure speculation.

I am cautious on this note. Its a bit too generous to include those that say they know HIM, yet deny HIM. To deny one aspect of Christ is to deny him in entirety.

:yup:

 

[flameburns623]

May I respectfully disagree with this being the only qualifier? JW’s also claim Jesus to be central to their beliefs somehow.

The Jehovah’s Witness are also a Christian denomination. So were the Gnostics, the Nestorians, the Marcionites, the Ebionites, and the Arians, by the way.

You have just condemned them by your statements. Effectively, you only reiterated that they also deny the Trinity.

They can not be called Christian if they deny the Trinity. Its that simple.

Actually they can be. They are Christian heretics, but they ARE Christians, nonetheless.

Our topic is Christians, and if the Trinity is denied, we can not mention them.

I don’t claim to know whether they know Christ or do not know Him. I do agree with you that they teach wrongly ABOUT Him. It is a Christian axiom that we do know where the Church IS but not where it is NOT. Heresy tends on balance to be an impediment to salvation, but Christians trust the mercy of God with respect to the final end of individual heretics.

One of the most-Christ-like women I ever knew was a Jehovah’s Witness. I hope to see her again in Heaven–she died at a young age of cancer. I suspect she is already rather nonplussed at finding herself ‘awake’ and in Heaven, rather than experiencing ‘soul-sleep’ until Armageddon, but I will discuss that with her if and when we meet again.

By your standard I’m not certain if any non-Catholic denomination qualifies to be discussed in this thread. “Outside the Bark of Peter, no salvation” and all that wash. We’re all heretics in YOUR eyes, after all.

Perhaps, though, we should ask the OP whether she is interested in including Christian denominations which both Protestants and Catholics label as ‘heretical’ or ‘cultic’?

 

[IanS]

The three Magi were gentiles not Jews. They worshiped the creation like pagans, not the Creator, like Jews. Yet, God knew that because of their worship of the sun and the stars, if He were to place a very bright star in the sky when He entered the world as a little baby, they would see it as a mighty sign and could not resist seeking out to find what it meant. According to their pagan philosophy, the appearance of a bright star in the sky meant a great king had been born. They had part of the truth, now the time had come for it to be fulfilled. This tells us that no matter where we are at in our lives, or what we follow, or what we place as a priority in our lives, God never ceases to place signs in our midst to draw us closer to Him and reveal the fullness of who He is to us, and how much He loves us. We just have to be willing to seek out the signs He gives us and be humble enough to know the truth when we find it, the same way the Magi did.

What are the chances Jesus entered the world on December 25, according to the Christian calendar? Well, I would say about 1 in 365. So why December 25th?

The gentiles also used to celebrate a “festival of lights” on December 25th, because according to their calendar, this was the shortest day of the year. The reason for the celebration was because after that day, the daylight hours would become longer and longer until June 25th. The Church chose December 25th to celebrate the nativity of the Lord as a way to teach the gentiles that Jesus is the** true **light of the world, not the sun or the stars:

• Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world; he who follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.” John 8:12*

Again, they had part of the truth, but the time had come for it to be fulfilled through Jesus Christ. The same way God used the bright star in the sky to communicate to the Magi that a great king had been born. This is why the nativity of John the Baptist is celebrated around June 25th (close to the longest day of the year) as a way to reflect the passage:

“He must increase, but I must decrease." John 3:30

After we celebrate the nativity of John the Baptist the days get shorter until the nativity of the Lord.

Let’s all try to follow the example of John the Baptist and know that the greatest way to celebrate Christmas is to humble ourselves the way he did and allow the light of Jesus Christ to increase within us.

 

[Sean_Boyle]

The Jehovah’s Witness are also a Christian denomination. So were the Gnostics, the Nestorians, the Marcionites, the Ebionites, and the Arians, by the way.

Actually they can be. They are Christian heretics, but they ARE Christians, nonetheless.

I don’t claim to know whether they know Christ or do not know Him. I do agree with you that they teach wrongly ABOUT Him. It is a Christian axiom that we do know where the Church IS but not where it is NOT. Heresy tends on balance to be an impediment to salvation, but Christians trust the mercy of God with respect to the final end of individual heretics.

One of the most-Christ-like women I ever knew was a Jehovah’s Witness. I hope to see her again in Heaven–she died at a young age of cancer. I suspect she is already rather nonplussed at finding herself ‘awake’ and in Heaven, rather than experiencing ‘soul-sleep’ until Armageddon, but I will discuss that with her if and when we meet again.

By your standard I’m not certain if any non-Catholic denomination qualifies to be discussed in this thread. “Outside the Bark of Peter, no salvation” and all that wash. We’re all heretics in YOUR eyes, after all.

Perhaps, though, we should ask the OP whether she is interested in including Christian denominations which both Protestants and Catholics label as ‘heretical’ or ‘cultic’?

JW’s are christian??? Isn’t one of the conditions for being christian to beleive in the divinity of Christ and that Christ is part of the trinity God head.

JW’s are just as “christian” as Muslims given your definition. Are there any Muslims or JW’s that claim to be christian?

No, quite the opposite.

 

[lak611]

JW’s are christian??? Isn’t one of the conditions for being christian to beleive in the divinity of Christ and that Christ is part of the trinity God head.

JW’s are just as “christian” as Muslims given your definition. Are there any Muslims or JW’s that claim to be christian?

No, quite the opposite.

Mormons are not Christian either.

 

[IanS]

Mormons are not Christian either.

Yet they do celebrate Christmas. I’m still trying to figure out that one.

 

[BrianH]

I’ve heard of groups like this. But Garner Ted Armstrong is probably the most vocal proponent. While it is true that we don’t know the precise date of Jesus’ birth his speculations are just that.

Graner Ted is a bit of kook. He is a great rhetorician but his words are venomous. His father kicked him out of the World Wide Church of God 30 or so years ago. He moved to Texas and started a break away cult of his own. One of his prophecies that I remember from my youth was the the EU was actually part of the army of the Beast and would bring about the end of the world in 1975. I don’t believe it happened or if it did he is as much “left behind” as the rest of us.

CDL

Garner Ted Armstrong has been dead about three years. Just an FYI

 

[ricko]

I have heard a theory (by a Mr. Shea) that Dec 25 actually IS the birthday of Christ and that a Roman Emperor placed the day to Sol Invictus on that date later to take away from the Christian celebration.
Anyone know about this?
Methodists celebrate December 25.
WP

Somewhat close. NOBODY knows the true date of the birth of Christ. It was not December 25. That date was chosen by the Church to occure on the same day that Rome had a festival for the pagan sun god. Remember, the shepards were in the fields so it was not in winter but who can imagine Christmas in summertime?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I’ve heard of groups like this. But Garner Ted Armstrong is probably the most vocal proponent. While it is true that we don’t know the precise date of Jesus’ birth his speculations are just that.

Graner Ted is a bit of kook. He is a great rhetorician but his words are venomous. His father kicked him out of the World Wide Church of God 30 or so years ago. He moved to Texas and started a break away cult of his own. One of his prophecies that I remember from my youth was the the EU was actually part of the army of the Beast and would bring about the end of the world in 1975. I don’t believe it happened or if it did he is as much “left behind” as the rest of us.

CDL

Michael Drosnin has under two weeks for his nuclear holocaust to to take place. These false prophets are certainly a good laugh.​

 

[Eden]

but who can imagine Christmas in summertime?

Australians? I know we have a few posters around here from the Southern Hemisphere. Anyone?

 

[Eden]

Garner Ted Armstrong has been dead about three years. Just an FYI

Oh. Then I guess he won’t get my e-mail.

 

[flameburns623]

JW’s are christian??? Isn’t one of the conditions for being christian to believe in the divinity of Christ and that Christ is part of the trinity God head.

JW’s are just as “christian” as Muslims given your definition. Are there any Muslims or JW’s that claim to be christian?

No, quite the opposite.

In a very strict, narrow theological definition of the word, Jehovah’s Witnesses might rightly be excluded as a Christian organization. In a broader more generic sense they certainly are. The rejection of the Trinity does NOT exclude them entirely from the Christian umbrella.

1. They accept the Holy Bible as the inspired Word of God.
2. They accept Jesus Christ as Savior and seek to conform their lives to His teachings and His life.
3. They believe their teachings encapsulate the original teachings of Christ and the Apostles, and they argue for their beliefs using evidence mutually agreed among Christians.
4. They self-identify as Christians.

This is in sharp distinction to Muslims:

1.They reject the Holy Bible and displace it entirely with the Quran. At best, they use the Bible as a source of ‘talking points’ to justify their rejection of Christianity.

1. Muslims reject Christ as their Savior and acknowledge Him only as a Prophet of Allah.
2. The teachings of Islam disregard the teachings of Christ and the Apostles except as these are replicated in the Quran. The Islamic tradition is based upon it’s own body of traditions and authoritative sources: the Quran, the Hadith, the Sunnah, and the consensus of the Ummah.
3. Muslims do not self-identify as Christians but consider themselves members of a religion expressly distinct from Christianity.

lak611:

Mormons are not Christian either.

Ditto for the Mormons. Of course one wants to insert qualifiers to my point #1: Mormons expressly accept other Scripture in addition to the Holy Bible; Scriptures which ‘clarify’ points of the Scripture which Mormons believe were lost in transmission from the Apostolic age to this. The upshot remains, however, that they are (broadly speaking) a Christian denomination, seeking to uphold the original teachings of Christ and the Apostles.

I note that in the OP’s post #1, she cites a link to Garner Ted Armstrong’s website. GTA’s denomination is clearly every bit as heretical as the Mormons or the Jehovah’s Witnesses. I take this to imply that she accepts that the Intercontinental Church of God (Garner Ted Armstrong’s church) can be broadly defined as “Christian”. If the ICG can be accepted as such for purposes of this thread, I submit that the Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses can be as well.

Again, I stress that of course, all three organizations are rank heresies. I do not quibble that their doctrines are at great variance with what Christians have always traditionally accepted and received as sound teaching. In a very narrow, strict theological definition of the Christian faith, one might exclude these and similar groups as being absolutely Christian. I think that in any case one still is obliged to recognise them as Christian heresies, implying that they are "Christian in some sense of the word.

If not can someone tell me which religious category they belong under? Are the Mormons a Buddhist sect? Is the Intercontinental Church of God a Zoroastrian schism?:nope: Are the Jehovah’s Witnesses to be numbered among the Hindus? Perhaps all three could be categorized as forms of Judaism? :tsktsk: I think not.

 

[VWcrazy]

1. They accept the Holy Bible as the inspired Word of God.

They accept a canon compiled by a group of “apostates”?

I don’t think the Church is celebrating Christmas as Jesus’ birthday, rather that he was born and God fulfilled his promise to send a Saviour.

 

[Eden]

They accept a canon compiled by a group of “apostates”?

I don’t think the Church is celebrating Christmas as Jesus’ birthday, rather that he was born and God fulfilled his promise to send a Saviour.

I agree. There is a difference between celebrating Jesus’ birthday and celebrating the feast of Christ’s birth. That is why I always made the distinction in my posts that we are celebrating His birth, not his birthday.

 

[Prayer_Warrior]

I agree. There is a difference between celebrating Jesus’ birthday and celebrating the feast of Christ’s birth. That is why I always made the distinction in my posts that we are celebrating His birth, not his birthday.

:yup: Ditto for me. Generally speaking, I’ve learned that most people who have a problem with Christmas have no idea what a feast day even is.

 

[kellie]

Australians? I know we have a few posters around here from the Southern Hemisphere. Anyone?

hehehehe yep Christmas here is in Summer

Funny thing is, most of us still send Christmas Cards with snow scenes on it, and all our Santas dress in traditional winter attire.

“White Christmas” is still one of the most popular carols too.

We all grew up in Australia with Frosty the Snowman too.

Most of us sit down to the traditional baked meal with all the trimmings including pudding and brandy custard, although it is becoming more common for us to have a prawn on the barbie now for our Christmas Day meal.