Rejecting the Motu Proprio....at Steubenville?

[Brennan_Doherty]

I think it would be more charitable AND more respectful because it takes into account the legitimate authortiy of the Franciscan setting. I have no doubt that most, maybe all, of the students have acted in innocence. I have BIG questions as to who (in any position of authority) led them in the direction of “petition.” One has difficulty in seeing how that individual wouldn’t have known better. Especially, I recall “do not give even the appearance of scandal.”

Scandal?!

Okay, these aren’t grade-schoolers. I’m sure that the students could have come up with the idea of a petition all on their own. In fact it was a student who was in charge of the petition.

And whether it was a single Priest or faculty member asking on behalf of many students or the students presenting a petition it still amounts to the students asking for the TLM. Whether one way is more effective than another is certainly open to debate but there is nothing inherently disrespectful about presening a list of names of students who want the TLM.

Also, Fr. Z’s blog on the situation is back up now. Click here:

wdtprs.com/blog/2007/10/franciscan-university-at-steubenville-and-summorum-pontificum/

God bless.

 

[catharina]

I believe you said that “Catholics do not petition for change”. :

Which is why I showed you how it is a tool that is used by the
Church. The petition or petitions can go to a priest, a college, even the Vatican. There is nothing bad or wrong with petitions.

I know without your showing me that RCs make petitions to the Church as INDIVIDUALS. The political tool of SIGNED, PUBLIC PETITIONS is NOT used by RCs who seek change within the Church. These are two entirely different notions of “petition.”

 

[jmcrae]

I read the blog all the way to the end - it turns out that no one was ever told to seek psychological counselling, and that the students are invited to participate at the Latin Mass being held at their parish church, St. Peter’s, which is where their priests come from to do the school Masses in the gym.

The priests don’t wish to do Latin Masses in the gym; they prefer to do them in the Church; therefore they have invited the students to come to the Latin Mass that is already taking place at the Church, instead of starting up a Latin Mass that would be held in the gym.

There - I think that’s settled, now.

 

[catharina]

I read the blog all the way to the end - it turns out that no one was ever told to seek psychological counselling, and that the students are invited to participate at the Latin Mass being held at their parish church, St. Peter’s, which is where their priests come from to do the school Masses in the gym.

The priests don’t wish to do Latin Masses in the gym; they prefer to do them in the Church; therefore they have invited the students to come to the Latin Mass that is already taking place at the Church, instead of starting up a Latin Mass that would be held in the gym.

There - I think that’s settled, now.

Deo gratias!

… and WOW. Thank you.

 

[Cathryn]

I know without your showing me that RCs make petitions to the Church as INDIVIDUALS. The political tool of SIGNED, PUBLIC PETITIONS is NOT used by RCs who seek change within the Church. These are two entirely different notions of “petition.”

Of course Roman Catholics can petition, and do petition. They can even have more than one name on the petition. Faithful Catholics do not petition however for things they have no right to petition for "women priest’, etc. Letting it be know that they would like to have the Extraordinary Mass is a very worthy use of the petition tool. It also gives a good idea of how many students want to attend.

 

[daughterofmary]

After reading the new updates I am not as disappointed in the school as I was. From what I understand the supposed rude comments I mentioned earlier were never made. This does make it seem as if the Franciscans were not so hostile toward the students for asking. It makes me feel better about it and the school.

It is also comforting to know that the school plans to make driving arrangements so that the students that wish to attend the TLM can do so off campus. That is good move. I am glad they are doing that. It makes me feel better about the situation.

I am still a bit sad over the Franciscans not allowing the TLM on campus, but the school is working nicely to help the students who wish to attend the TLM be able to do so.

I kind of feel bad for doubting so much in FSU. This seriously has made me throw out the idea of applying there completely. Now it is there again, probably unlikely, but there. It sounds as if the staff has been good about this and not been really unkind to anyone. It sounds like, at the moment, every one is satisfied. It is a pity they cannot have the Mass on the campus, but (like the mother said in Fr. Z’s post) with perseverance, prayer, and sacrifice perhaps one day…

 

[catharina]

Of course Roman Catholics can petition, and do petition. They can even have more than one name on the petition. Faithful Catholics do not petition however for things they have no right to petition for "women priest’, etc. Letting it be know that they would like to have the Extraordinary Mass is a very worthy use of the petition tool. It also gives a good idea of how many students want to attend.

However, the gathering of petitons (signatures) on a paper submitted to the one in authority is unlikely to gain one’s wishes - as was proven at Steubenville. We’ve had about two generations of some RCs in the United States who have confused political practices with the procedures used by the RC Church. It will be nice when that kind of activity and confusion ceases.

 

[catharina]

After reading the new updates I am not as disappointed in the school as I was. From what I understand the supposed rude comments I mentioned earlier were never made. This does make it seem as if the Franciscans were not so hostile toward the students for asking. It makes me feel better about it and the school.

It is also comforting to know that the school plans to make driving arrangements so that the students that wish to attend the TLM can do so off campus. That is good move. I am glad they are doing that. It makes me feel better about the situation.

I am still a bit sad over the Franciscans not allowing the TLM on campus, but the school is working nicely to help the students who wish to attend the TLM be able to do so.

I kind of feel bad for doubting so much in FSU. This seriously has made me throw out the idea of applying there completely. Now it is there again, probably unlikely, but there. It sounds as if the staff has been good about this and not been really unkind to anyone. It sounds like, at the moment, every one is satisfied. It is a pity they cannot have the Mass on the campus, but (like the mother said in Fr. Z’s post) with perseverance, prayer, and sacrifice perhaps one day…

If usually, students attend Mass in the gym, I think it’s lovely that for the TLM, a church will be the setting.

 

[VociMike]

However, the gathering of petitons (signatures) on a paper submitted to the one in authority is unlikely to gain one’s wishes - as was proven at Steubenville. We’ve had about two generations of some RCs in the United States who have confused political practices with the procedures used by the RC Church. It will be nice when that kind of activity and confusion ceases.

I’ve read this entire thread, and about half of it concerns your views on how inappropriate a petition was, and I still can’t fathom your point. They made a request. They indicated how many people were making the request, and who exactly those people were. That would seem to be reasonable, even essential information for any request. And you respond almost as if they deserved to have their request turned down simply because of the form in which they made it. Rather, according to you, one person should have gone in and presented unsubstantiated hearsay as to how many people wanted it, as if this would make the request more legitimate rather than less.

I truly don’t get it.

 

[catharina]

I’ve read this entire thread, and about half of it concerns your views on how inappropriate a petition was, and I still can’t fathom your point. They made a request. They indicated how many people were making the request, and who exactly those people were. That would seem to be reasonable, even essential information for any request. And you respond almost as if they deserved to have their request turned down simply because of the form in which they made it. Rather, according to you, one person should have gone in and presented unsubstantiated hearsay as to how many people wanted it, as if this would make the request more legitimate rather than less.

I truly don’t get it.

That’s correct. the Church and religious commuinites do NOT operate on the same principles as Berkeley or Columbia or the public universities in Florida. It’s not about one man, one vote. It’s about who is in authority to speak for a certain group. (The chaplain comes to mind.) It has to do with order, discipline, structure and NOT wasting time. Many RCs spent lots of time becoming very American rather than very RC but this type of goofy petition stuff has taken place over the past 40 years. It’s not new news.

 

[catharina]

It might be expecting way too much for students
to understand this if their parents don’t.

 

[VociMike]

That’s correct. the Church and religious commuinites do NOT operate on the same principles as Berkeley or Columbia or the public universities in Florida. It’s not about one man, one vote. It’s about who is in authority to speak for a certain group. (The chaplain comes to mind.) It has to do with order, discipline, structure and NOT wasting time. Many RCs spent lots of time becoming very American rather than very RC but this type of goofy petition stuff has taken place over the past 40 years. It’s not new news.

What you wrote brings me not one step closer to understanding the problem you insist is present.

 

[VociMike]

It might be expecting way too much for students
to understand this if their parents don’t.

Which brings up an interesting point. If the Franciscans at FUS have not taught their students the “proper way” to interact with the Church authority structure, that would seem to place the blame for the “ill-advised” petition squarely on the Franciscans who run the place. Hmm…

 

[catharina]

What you wrote brings me not one step closer to understanding the problem you insist is present.

I’m sorry for that.

Imagine if in the military for example, grunts had a complaint and took it to their sergeant who took it to his officer and so on up the chain of command. Eventually one leader would be reporting to his own leader. “There’s a problem and it likely involves 600 personnel and the chain of reporting goes back to so-and-so on this or that date.” Then there would be an authoritative response, be it yes or no. If instead, the personnel said “hey, let’s sign our names and some of us will present it to the CO and see what happens.” Have you a clue what would happen? The Church is much closer to a military organization AND to a family (where parents “sign off” on things) then it is a government or corporation. Now I doubt that I can make it any more clear than that. Add the words - holy, blessed and graced - and yes, going through channels in the Church is the best way to go.

 

[catharina]

Which brings up an interesting point. If the Franciscans at FUS have not taught their students the “proper way” to interact with the Church authority structure, that would seem to place the blame for the “ill-advised” petition squarely on the Franciscans who run the place. Hmm…

I’m sure the Administration will be very interested in learning who among facilty/staff led students to think this was a fine way to approach the Administration. A problem can’t be corrected until it’s discovered.

 

[childofmary1143]

I’ve read this entire thread, and about half of it concerns your views on how inappropriate a petition was, and I still can’t fathom your point. They made a request. They indicated how many people were making the request, and who exactly those people were. That would seem to be reasonable, even essential information for any request. And you respond almost as if they deserved to have their request turned down simply because of the form in which they made it. Rather, according to you, one person should have gone in and presented unsubstantiated hearsay as to how many people wanted it, as if this would make the request more legitimate rather than less.

I truly don’t get it.

Neither do I and I think some people get so opinionated on their personal preferences to impose it on others.

 

[catharina]

I’m saying that if people (any people) hope for a positive response from Church officials/communities, then those people might want to approach those others in approved. It’s VERY simple and it’s not new news. Maybe an apologist can leap in and explain this better than I. (Forget the maybe.)

 

[DustinsDad]

I’ve read this entire thread, and about half of it concerns your views on how inappropriate a petition was, and I still can’t fathom your point. They made a request. They indicated how many people were making the request, and who exactly those people were. That would seem to be reasonable, even essential information for any request. And you respond almost as if they deserved to have their request turned down simply because of the form in which they made it. Rather, according to you, one person should have gone in and presented unsubstantiated hearsay as to how many people wanted it, as if this would make the request more legitimate rather than less.

I truly don’t get it.

It’s called spin control. It’s meant to deflect blame from the university. I don’t think you are supposed to truly “get it.”

Bottom line is, if the reports are correct, the students requesting the TLM did exactly as would be reasonably expected by any reasonable person. They gathered a list of names of students who desire it and presented the request with the names to the person/office in charge of the liturgy on campus.

Perhaps they should have lined up single file in the hallway and asked for it one at a time. No wait…on second thought, that could be spun as a disrespectful “protest” march.

DustinsDad

 

[jmcrae]

It’s called spin control. It’s meant to deflect blame from the university. I don’t think you are supposed to truly “get it.”

Bottom line is, if the reports are correct, the students requesting the TLM did exactly as would be reasonably expected by any reasonable person. They gathered a list of names of students who desire it and presented the request with the names to the person/office in charge of the liturgy on campus.

Perhaps they should have lined up single file in the hallway and asked for it one at a time. No wait…on second thought, that could be spun as a disrespectful “protest” march.

DustinsDad

No; they should have gone to whoever is their direct superior, and then let him take it up the chain of command, instead of bypassing the chain of command with a petition.

 

[catharina]

No; they should have gone to whoever is their direct superior, and then let him take it up the chain of command, instead of bypassing the chain of command with a petition.

Uhhhh - YES.