Rejecting the Motu Proprio....at Steubenville?

[catharina]

The word “petition” is being used in a different sense here - the “we the undersigned demand …” style of petition is a very recent political development - in ancient times, a “petition” was a letter of request from an individual on behalf of a group - ie: St. Teresa petitioned her Bishop on behalf of the Carmelite order for a new convent - but she didn’t present a written demand with a list of names attached to it; rather, she approached him for an interview and presented her case to him on behalf of her Sisters, which was also written in a letter that she gave to him. The Sisters didn’t sign anything, though.

Demand, request, desire, implore … whatever the verb, it’s easy to see the difference between a “petiton” presented by an individual and another (modern) format that carries a list of signatures in the style of “one man - one” vote. Or maybe that’s it should be easy to see.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

Demand, request, desire, implore … whatever the verb, it’s easy to see the difference between a “petiton” presented by an individual and another (modern) format that carries a list of signatures in the style of “one man - one” vote. Or maybe that’s it should be easy to see.

No, this is not the case. The ruling on the TLM has already been given via the Motu Proprio. So this is not a case of “Let’s force the University to grant us this because we have this amount of signatures.”

It goes, as has been said, to showing the University that there is a stable group of faithful who is requesting this, justas the Motu Proprio says there needs to be (in other words, not an individual).

 

[catharina]

First, your signature - to read “Case for the Latin Mass,” I have always loved the Latin Mass and I don’t need to know the case for it since the MP already exists. The “case” has been decided.

Second, the Franciscans as an 800 year-old religious Order are likely to be accustomed to certain standards of protocol and recieving and supporting the wishes of group-petition is not one of them. Neither is Rome’s intent to request those sorts of petitions. Rome’s intent, as aklways, is to accept “a petition” i.e. a request from an individual who is willing and able to convey the hopes and desires of a group. Even now, with the MP, the delivery-system is unchanged, no matter THE MISUNDERSTANDING OF STUDENTS, PARENTS OR OTHERS. I can’t even imagine the backlash within the Franciscans if their novices and junior members in formation or even full-fledged Franciscans began to present signed petitions for change!

 

[catharina]

All I’ve been saying is that if ANY defined group within the Church hopes to gain a positive outcome to a request, the group should probably not go with a “signed petition” of names.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

First, your signature - to read “Case for the Latin Mass,” I have always loved the Latin Mass and I don’t need to know the case for it since the MP already exists. The “case” has been decided.

Second, the Franciscans as an 800 year-old religious Order are likely to be accustomed to certain standards of protocol and recieving and supporting the wishes of group-petition is not one of them. Neither is Rome’s intent to request those sorts of petitions. Rome’s intent, as aklways, is to accept “a petition” i.e. a request from an individual who is willing and able to convey the hopes and desires of a group. Even now, with the MP, the delivery-system is unchanged, no matter THE MISUNDERSTANDING OF STUDENTS, PARENTS OR OTHERS. I can’t even imagine the backlash within the Franciscans if their novices and junior members in formation or even full-fledged Franciscans began to present signed petitions for change!

I refer people to “The Case for the Latin Mass” because Dietrich von Hildebrand has a tremendous understanding of the liturgy as it relates to the supernatural life and true community.

The “change” has already been decided by the Pope with his Motu Proprio. Thus the true change has been done by the Pope in regards to Priests and Bishops.

Further, these Franciscans are administering a University. The students they are ministering to are not part of a religious order and hence really should not be treated as if they have to behave the way Franciscans would to a Superior.

Also, I have read further on this issue at other blogs and seen some comments by people at Steubenville. Nowhere has it been indicated that the thought has even occurred to the Franciscans that the students’ petition was improper in and of itself. No sign of an affront or admonishment to the students that they should not have proceeded the way they did because it was improper. Thus the result of their request really had nothing to do with how they requested it and I don’t think it would have turned out any different if they had just used an individual. The Franciscans knew about the Motu Proprio and probably expected a group of students to ask for it.

Again, as has been mentioned in earlier posts, I don’t think you’ve established by any amount of evidence that there is some rigid protocol that exists in regard to these students that they failed to follow.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

This is a brand-new issue to me.

Two thoughts:

1. isn’t a “petition approach” more relevant to the way we might seek something from government but NOT from the Church. It reminds me of “democracy goes wild” and that makes me see it as an unreasonable approach with this particular issue.
2. maybe (I’m looking for logic here) the Franciscans would take deep offense at being apporached via “petition” forces. They are not exactly politically invoved. Their spirituality is very humble, simple and face-to-face.

That’s my initial comment.

It is difficult to come up with a different way for the faithful to make their desires known…

I am not a big petition fan in general, but if you and 20 other people want this Mass, it seems this is a useful way to make your desires known.

FSU represents a mindset I admire but can’t fully get behind. The whole “as long as its in the GIRM, its cool, lets focus on adoration and Marian devotion” seems to be shortsighted.

I deeply admire Dr. Hahn & co. I read his books, listened to his tapes, and recomend them to others. But his comfort with the more decidedly “low church” approach is where he and I part ways.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Steubenville is doctrinally and morally a orthodox college. However, they are very into the charismatic movement. I see this as a political agenda, the priests don’t want to divide the students on campus. This could be a total war between those who favor the charismatic movement and those who don’t. Since there is a petition for the moto proprio, then I see that it is already starting. Hopefully the two spiritualities can co-exist.

This is a very insightful and thoughtful answer.

I do see a divide between two different spiritual mindsets. A friend of mine is very into contemporary praise and “Life teen” and is proud of the 13+ seminarians that the parish program she is involved in has produced in the last several years. In the same period, one particularly traditional parish with which I am familiar has produced the same…

Interestingly, I have visited a seminary where I have seen a mix of both groups. The interaction has been very interesting…

 

[ASimpleSinner]

I didn’t notice anyone saying petitions are unCatholic. Any parish that decides to offer two grand prizes for a sweepstakes-offering might decide first to petition parishoners as to their opinions regarding the choices. That’s an example of a workable public petition. However in Chruch governance, the notion of request by petition seems way out of bounds; at least my imagination won’t stretsh that far. Issues are presented and resolved by going up the chain of command, indidvidual to individual (not unlike in the military). The Church does not respond as the government would. Different goals, different structures.

I would find the above action to be better described as a “poll” of the parishoners.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Why doesn’t every student that wants TLM at Steubenville all go together at one time to the guy that runs the place–ask for it–and tell him if he won’t provide it theyll go to whoever his superior is and if that doiesn’t work they’ll go see Pope Benedict XVI?

What’s wrong with it? It would solve the problem!

 

[jmcrae]

Why doesn’t every student that wants TLM at Steubenville all go together at one time to the guy that runs the place–ask for it–and tell him if he won’t provide it theyll go to whoever his superior is and if that doiesn’t work they’ll go see Pope Benedict XVI?

What’s wrong with it? It would solve the problem!

Because that’s not how it works in the Catholic Church. In fact, it would make them even more entrenched and determined to point out the fact that it is they who are in charge, and not the peasantry.

The best way to get a person in authority to do something is to convince him that it was his idea to begin with, and he was just looking for the opportunity that you are about to present him with.

 

[paramedicgirl]

Because that’s not how it works in the Catholic Church. In fact, it would make them even more entrenched and determined to point out the fact that it is they who are in charge, and not the peasantry.

The best way to get a person in authority to do something is to convince him that it was his idea to begin with, and he was just looking for the opportunity that you are about to present him with.

Oh, you mean stroke his ego?

 

[jmcrae]

Oh, you mean stroke his ego?

That works, too.

 

[kentuckyliz]

Well, the people making the request for the TLM at FUS behaved in an entirely appropriate way to make their request known…nothing I’ve read makes it appear that their words or actions were adversarial or confrontational. I used to work at a small Catholic college and this is exactly how I would expect an interested group of students and others to proceed to make their desires known. In fact, doing something else would probably have been viewed as inappropriate. If someone went on their own to ask for it, they probably would have been asked to come up with a list of people who were committing to participate if it were approved. Otherwise it’s just one person’s “cause” to be easily dismissed.

As for TLM in Steubenville, even the CTK chapel at FUS would be aesthetically inappropriate for a TLM Mass. St. Peter’s is beautiful and perfect for the TLM. I think it was a good and prudent decision on everyone’s part.

The TLM is monthly right now but who knows, perhaps it’s a period to see how stable the interest is. If large groups attend each month and express a desire for more frequent availability of the TLM, who knows, it could happen. That’s how it’s worked in the TLM’s in my diocese/the cities in my state.

I’m not a big fan of the TLM personally and don’t have regular access to it here in mission territory but I fully support those who desire it. It’s all good.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

If everyone doing it at one time is wrong how about this: Each individual that wants the TLM can one at a tinme make an appointment with whoever runs Steubenville and ask for TLM.

Then if the TLM isn’t offered everyone can one at a time go to his superior bishop and ask for TLM.

Then one at a time each one can try to see Pope Benedict XVI…

When all that doesn’t work everyone who wants TLM can pray at Steubenville and fast for TLM.

None of these things would be wrong.

Would it be God’s will for the answer to all these supplications to be “No”?

Is it OK for such a course as this to be pursued in God’s Catholic Church?

 

[AlexV]

The bottom line with this whole tale of FSU is that their campus has no problem whatsoever with so-called “Charismatic Masses”, but has been less than generous regarding the extraordinary form of the Roman Rite.

FSU is not a school I would ever recommend, unless you want to be indoctrinated in the Charismatic movement. There are far more academically well-respected institutions out there, not to mention places with orthodox Catholic reputations that don’t seem so obsessed with the Charismatic movement.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

The bottom line with this whole tale of FSU is that their campus has no problem whatsoever with so-called “Charismatic Masses”, but has been less than generous regarding the extraordinary form of the Roman Rite.

FSU is not a school I would ever recommend, unless you want to be indoctrinated in the Charismatic movement. There are far more academically well-respected institutions out there, not to mention places with orthodox Catholic reputations that don’t seem so obsessed with the Charismatic movement.

I knew it…

All we had to do was wait some time and it was bound to happen.

Alex and I finally found something that we can agree on.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Certainly in the history of the Catholic Church there must have been charismatics who loved going to TLM.

Are none of them at Steubenville?

 

[AdvanceAlways]

The bottom line with this whole tale of FSU is that their campus has no problem whatsoever with so-called “Charismatic Masses”, but has been less than generous regarding the extraordinary form of the Roman Rite.

FSU is not a school I would ever recommend, unless you want to be indoctrinated in the Charismatic movement. There are far more academically well-respected institutions out there, not to mention places with orthodox Catholic reputations that don’t seem so obsessed with the Charismatic movement.

Although I disagree completely with the school’s initial course of action on the TLM, to say that FUS is not a good Catholic institution is madness! Schools like FUS are the last hopes of real Catholic colleges in America.

 

[cothrige]

Schools like FUS are the last hopes of real Catholic colleges in America.

Well, I certainly hope not! I live in an area which is almost completely overrun by the “Charismatic renewal.” Every parish in this town is overtly charismatic, and every one is filled to the brim with abuse and illicit behaviour. I have small children in religious ed and it is downright scary. Our parish education program is being taught in part by an open agnostic! Every day I am reminded of just how wrong this charismatic movement is, and if the last hope of Catholic education is in this, then there is in fact no hope.

Patrick

 

[proud2bcatholic]

Although I disagree completely with the school’s initial course of action on the TLM, to say that FUS is not a good Catholic institution is madness! Schools like FUS are the last hopes of real Catholic colleges in America.

Actually I would give that title to Christendom, Thomas Aquinas in California, and Wyoming Catholic College.

FUS needs a lot of improvement (coming from a former FUS student).