Rejection of God, Free will and Hell

[Kaben123]

Through my studies of Christianity and Catholicism in particular, I have found satisfying solutions to most of my previous problems with certain doctrines. However, there is at least one problem which I simply can not find a solution for, and so I turn to you for help.

As far as I understand it, there are really two ways a human being can go to hell. Two categories of separation from Him, if you will.

The first category is that of the sin of the believer. Satan and the other rebellious angels belong in this category, because even though he knew that God existed, he decided not to follow His commands. The same is true with many Christians, who know that certain things are wrong according to God, but who still do it because of egoism and pride. I have no major problem with this doctrine, because this is an act of Free will; we choose ourselves over God, just like Satan did, and therefore we will be rejoined with him and the others who do the same, and not with God.

The second category is the sin of the unbeliever. Jesus said, “No one comes to the Father except through me”, and from several other passages we verify that belief in God is necessary for salvation. Now, this is the doctrine I struggle with. I was once an unbeliever myself, and I did not choose not to believe. I knew some basics of Christianity (even though it was superficial knowledge), I had heard some Christians debate etc. but what was said simply went in through one ear and out through the other. I was “closed”, as it is usually expressed. It made as much sense as Islam makes sense to a Christian (as some atheist debaters point out, which I think is true in a sense because I felt the same way). Through the internet I found some great Christians however (Bishop Sheen etc.) who made me open to further investigation of Christianity. They unlocked the door, so to speak.

But this was merely coincidental. Had I not had access to the internet I would probably never have met anyone who could “open the door”, and I know many people who will never get the chance to investigate into the truth of Christianity because it simply is not even on their radar. My question is: how can we say that it is an act of Free will to reject Christianity and God, if the whole concept is completely absurd to the person in question? Satan knew that God existed, but to these people it is the same as “Allah” is to us; a fiction that is simply not thought about at all. The first Christians got their verification through miracles, but these people are trapped in some kind of Catch 22; in order to find out the Truth they must investigate and open themselves, but they won’t investigate and open themselves because they are not aware of the Truth.

I hope someone has an answer to this question, because I simply cannot solve it.

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

… my dear friend ,

… to put it simply : god judges each man on the basis of what he would do if he knew the truth , so a non-believer can be saved , if one knows some truth then god judges whether they made sufficient effort to discover the whole truth and in the mix god judges them based on what they would do if they knew the truth if they are sufficiently exciused from having to know the whole truth , if one knows the whole truth god judges you on this basis , jesus said to him wom much is given much will be demanded , and to him whom little is given little will be demanded …

… there are other factors that can exonerate one from the guilt of sin such as total ignorance of sin or mental illness to a high enough degree or not reaching the age of reason , people if they sincerely strive to know god in their own way and do their best to do gods will and be loving people and repent of sin as they know how to if they sin can be saved , everyone can be saved , it’s a very big question and the answer in completeness would be beyond infinite , but god knows what a mess all are here and he does his absolute utmost to forgive ones sins at youtr judgment but in the end if he cannot you are lost , just pray you are a predestinate soul as st paul says and pray hard your name is written in the book of life too …

… if you have the faith treasure it as you can lose it as many have , people choose hell themselves by the way , god does not send anyone to hell at all , they choose it and send themselves there – note this , but hell is very real and we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling , but fear gives way to love eventually , just love without limits and selflessly , love all and everything – this will get you to heaven , but finally – don’t presume the ignorant will be saved , try to convert and help them as you can without going overboard and annoyiong them too much , be persistent , as most go to hell and that because none pray for them or try to teach them about god and his church , hope this helps dear friend …

… may god bless and love you ,

… john …

 

[Perplexity]

This is a very fascinating subject. I think your problem with unbelievers being condemned packs more punch than you may realize though:

1. Either there is at least one circumstance for each human person within which they’d freely come to accept Christ, or there are some human persons who’d never freely come to accept Christ in any circumstance.
2. If there is at least one circumstance for each human person within which they’d freely come to accept Christ, then God would create each human person in these circumstances.
3. If there are some human persons who’d never freely come to accept Christ in any circumstance, then God wouldn’t create these persons at all.
4. Therefore, either God would create each human person in these circumstances or God wouldn’t create these persons at all.

I think this is a powerful argument for universalism (the idea that everyone will freely accept Christ, either in the libertarian sense or compatibilist sense). Anyways, it seems to be preferable alternative to the doctrine you’re struggling with.

 

[tonyrey]

Our destiny depends not so much on what we believe but on how much we love others…

 

[Kaben123]

…

Yes, exactly. Which brings me to another problem I have.

1. God creates all souls.
2. God knows exactly what will happen in the future.
3. Many souls go to hell.
4. Therefore God creates souls that He knows will go to hell.

Why doesn’t God simply make a different soul that would choose him instead? Or am I misunderstanding the properties of the soul? Does God give the soul some properties (which will then affect our choices during our life), does it gain properties from the actions of the body or does it have no properties at all?

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

Our destiny depends not so much on what we believe but on how much we love others…

… dear tony ,

… your so right , well said , one thing i thought about on this and i’m not trying to override your wisdom here , it’s so true and well put , but if i may just talk to you as well as you to the op if you don’t mind , we know the saying " faith without works is no faith at all " , and i think this is what your pointing out , correct me if i’m wrong , but i operate on the notion that all that is good is love , so see how it works here " love without love is no love at all , or love - love = no love ( or evil , the opposite of love ) , i just wanted to tell you my thought dear friend , hope you don’t mind …

… may god bless and love you ,

… john …

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

Yes, exactly. Which brings me to another problem I have.

1. God creates all souls.
2. God knows exactly what will happen in the future.
3. Many souls go to hell.
4. Therefore God creates souls that He knows will go to hell.

Why doesn’t God simply make a different soul that would choose him instead? Or am I misunderstanding the properties of the soul? Does God give the soul some properties (which will then affect our choices during our life), does it gain properties from the actions of the body or does it have no properties at all?

… my dear friend ,

… when god created man he only had free will to do gods will and could not go to hell thus , man disobeyong god and listening to satan saying the knowledge of good and evil will make you like god is the whole reason for the problems and all our problems now , god accommodated man by giviung him this forbidden satanic knowledge and altered man and the whole universe and cosmos by turing it into the opposite of reality in various ways , the loss of the garden of eden = the loss of reality …

… but although man seems to be able and can choose good or evil in this delusion , and we are in a delusion for now , it’s like our beautiful daydream became a terrible nightmare , i think god eventually intends to give us all back our beautiful daydream myself , this is my own poersonal opinion note please , when we get reality back which will incl our world repaired and made new as in the beginning and heaven and much more ahead of us , hell will cease to be too , and all the angels and men will be restored as they werre before the falls of each , and it will be like nothing went wrong at all , in fact nothing has gone wrong …

… god fixed all these problems so instantaneously it’s like they never happened , but to us it seems to take so long , in reality it is already fixed , but we must experience our eternity gradually unfolding as we cannot exp our whole eternity all at once , we would be in the womb , a baby , a child , an adult , dying , in heaven or hell and goodness knows what else all at once !!! , change and time are but an illusion , god is in eternity and time cannot exist , in eternity there is no beginning , present or end , there is just " now " and god nmust do all his creativity " now " and not oiver time as thought …

… this is a very brief explanation of my own personal theory , but it is better to exist even if you go to hell if for the rest of eternity after that you have an unimaginable blissful existence and adventure that just keeps getting better and have the past misfortune blotted from your mind …

… hell and evil and sin and all that is bad are imperfection being the opposite of love , any imperfection in creation is a reflection on the creator , and any imperfection in the creator is impossible but if it were so he would cease to be , so all this imperfection is taking place outside reality and it is like it doesn’t exist or happen at all , it feels real but is not …

… so it is better to exist no matter what if my theory is right , demons and man only have free will to do gods will in reality so they cannot complain if in the end god forces them to do his will , it is a long story but christs salvific work and his church are working to fix this mess and get reality back for all – i don’t think they know it yet but i think they are , this is not official church teaching but my own theory …

… regardless of what i say do anything to avoid hell as it is much worse rthan even being burned alive without being able to die – do anythiung to avoid that polace …

… may god bless and love you ,

… john …

 

[Perplexity]

Why doesn’t God simply make a different soul that would choose him instead? Or am I misunderstanding the properties of the soul? Does God give the soul some properties (which will then affect our choices during our life), does it gain properties from the actions of the body or does it have no properties at all?

Who knows But, no matter the answer, the question will always remain:

Is it really better to create a soul knowing it’ll endure eternal conscious torment forever, than to not create it?

Some might say “God could create these souls because only in a possible world in which some go to hell can the most amount of souls go to heaven.” (a la William Lane Craig)

But, would God really prefer a world in which some go to hell just so more could go to heaven, to a world in which none go to hell even though fewer go to heaven? Really? So much for persons as ends in themselves

 

[JRKH]

From the Catechism:

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

**847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation**

Peace
James

 

[ThinkingSapien]

The second category is the sin of the unbeliever. Jesus said, “No one comes to the Father except through me”, and from several other passages we verify that belief in God is necessary for salvation. Now, this is the doctrine I struggle with. I was once an unbeliever myself, and I did not choose not to believe…But this was merely coincidental. …how can we say that it is an act of Free will to reject Christianity and God, if the whole concept is completely absurd to the person in question?

While this doesn’t impact the validity of your question I wanted to point out that’s not the only pathway to category 2. There are also those that were once believers of Yahweh that for various reasons are no longer able to sustain the beliefs (like myself ).

In either case what I found interesting is the churches I attended growing up taught that many category 2s were really category 1s that just wanted to act like they didn’t believe to be difficult (something I still hear repeated by some even now).

 

[You]

I seem to remember a saying that He calls people, or, nobody goes to Him unless He draws them. Your attraction, to Catholicism I presume, would not just be from your own efforts, or the existence of the interweb, but you would have to be drawn to all of this. If other people, or the interweb, did not exist you could still be drawn even if you could not yourself now put a name or shape to what you were attempting.

 

[babylonsfalling]

Through my studies of Christianity and Catholicism in particular, I have found satisfying solutions to most of my previous problems with certain doctrines. However, there is at least one problem which I simply can not find a solution for, and so I turn to you for help.

As far as I understand it, there are really two ways a human being can go to hell. Two categories of separation from Him, if you will.

The first category is that of the sin of the believer. Satan and the other rebellious angels belong in this category, because even though he knew that God existed, he decided not to follow His commands. The same is true with many Christians, who know that certain things are wrong according to God, but who still do it because of egoism and pride. I have no major problem with this doctrine, because this is an act of Free will; we choose ourselves over God, just like Satan did, and therefore we will be rejoined with him and the others who do the same, and not with God.

The second category is the sin of the unbeliever. Jesus said, “No one comes to the Father except through me”, and from several other passages we verify that belief in God is necessary for salvation. Now, this is the doctrine I struggle with. I was once an unbeliever myself, and I did not choose not to believe. I knew some basics of Christianity (even though it was superficial knowledge), I had heard some Christians debate etc. but what was said simply went in through one ear and out through the other. I was “closed”, as it is usually expressed. It made as much sense as Islam makes sense to a Christian (as some atheist debaters point out, which I think is true in a sense because I felt the same way). Through the internet I found some great Christians however (Bishop Sheen etc.) who made me open to further investigation of Christianity. They unlocked the door, so to speak.

But this was merely coincidental. Had I not had access to the internet I would probably never have met anyone who could “open the door”, and I know many people who will never get the chance to investigate into the truth of Christianity because it simply is not even on their radar. My question is: how can we say that it is an act of Free will to reject Christianity and God, if the whole concept is completely absurd to the person in question? Satan knew that God existed, but to these people it is the same as “Allah” is to us; a fiction that is simply not thought about at all. The first Christians got their verification through miracles, but these people are trapped in some kind of Catch 22; in order to find out the Truth they must investigate and open themselves, but they won’t investigate and open themselves because they are not aware of the Truth.

I hope someone has an answer to this question, because I simply cannot solve it.

We will be judged on what you knew, including the naturally inborn sense of God that all men and women have…

Romans 1
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Romans 2

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

But at this point you seem to know who Christ is and the importance of accepting Him anyway.

 

[cornbread_r2]

We will be judged on what you knew, including the naturally inborn sense of God that all men and women have…

But at this point you seem to know who Christ is and the importance of accepting Him anyway.

Without conceding that all people have an innate sense of God, I’d like to point out that an awful lot of people have a sense of a god or gods that doesn’t resemble yours in any way.

I know how Christ has been described to me by various Christians and I know the importance that they have placed on accepting him, but none of that means that any of that is true. Jesus hasn’t spoken to me.

Suppose I approached you and began preaching to you about the god Ooga Booga. I tell you all about her; her desires, her plan, her love for you. I also tell you about the horrible suffering that will befall you for not accepting her. All of my assertions are logically valid and consistent and can’t be falsified. You’ve now been informed – put on notice – so to speak. Do you feel the least bit of obligation to actually believe in Ooga Booga just because you ran into me on the street? I’m guessing not. No offense intended, but these days that’s exactly how I feel when I’m being evangelized.