Relations with boyfriend

  • Thread starter Thread starter miriamja
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
M

miriamja

Guest
I am currently dating an amazing man. He is loving, generous, humble and passionate. The only trouble between us stems from our religious differences. He is very, very Catholic, and I, while I believe in God, do not have the same type of faith. My boyfriend says he always prays for me, but perhaps God has made me obstinate, like he made Pharaoh in Exodus.

Our biggest argument is sexual relations. We are both virgins, and he wishes to keep his virginity, which I have respected. And although he’s wavered in the past, he also does not want anything oral or manual. This also I’ve tried to respect, but I do not agree at all. His priority is God and I try to accept it that he places God before me. I am nothing compared to Him.

So I want to know from those of you with very, very Catholic beliefs: how can I be more patient? How do I “put up” with this? I really don’t see the trouble with oral/manual pleasure. It isn’t sex, is it? It’s arousal, but is that considered fornication? If arousal is fornication, then why even bother kissing? If oral is wrong, why is kissing not wrong? Why is sharing a bed (even though we don’t do anything) not wrong? The scripture readings say nothing except not to waste seed, but that could be prevented. There are songs that supposedly refer to oral pleasure. I know that one can still get STDs from oral pleasure, but we are both clean. And I don’t believe “saving myself” will make my relations with a future husband all that better. What’s separating him from being just a friend vs. my boyfriend?

I really don’t know what to do, I need help understanding his point of view. And although he and I have spoken about it a lot…I still don’t get it (aka we’re stubborn and I still feel how I feel and he feels how he does). It’s a stale-mate and no negotiation or compromise seems possible.

Can you help me see his position better? I love him so very much and I am putting forth that last effort to make things work/not let the differences tear us apart.
 
God gave the human race sexual pleasure for marriage. Jesus Christ even made marriage a sacrament. Your boyfriend is putting God’s will before his own. He is acknowledging that God has meant sex to be sacred within the confines of marriage. The conjugal act is designed by God to produce children and bring the married couple closer together and lead them to God as they grow in true love. Circumventing God’s will, and deciding you know better what is good for you is what the first sin in the Garden of Eden was about. You are very blessed to have a boyfriend like this. Think about how much your boyfriend is valuing you as a person and how much he must love you. He sounds like someone who would make an excellent husband and father. It is worth waiting and doing God’s will. God knows what is best for all of us.
 
We all start in different places…and Saints have been once where you are in your questions 🙂

But there is a question that we all need to ask:

That question is: *what does God desire? *

This we discover in the Sacred Scriptures …in the Teachings of the Church …et al.

A good thing to do then would be to study the Teachings of the Church and in particular study regarding the nature of Marriage and the virtue of Chastity.

And above all we need to seek to know Christ more and more …to encounter him…for more we know him and his love --the more the rest will shine out brilliantly before us.

In him is true life.

As Paul notes it involves more and more a “renewal of our our mind” --all of us need to continue to cooperate with grace in this.

Here is a great homily of Pope Benedict XVI that I invite all readers where ever they are at --to read (and return to often)-- the first paragraph is important but what I am posting it for is what follows…so keep reading: vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20090628_chius-anno-paolino_en.html
 
Your boyfriend probably only understands the Church’s teachings on chastity a bit. Very often people get the impression that chastity is about rejecting our sexual nature. Its easy to think that sexual pleasure is just evil and only morally rationalized in marriage because that’s how babies are conceived.

The thing to understand is that sexual intercourse and the acts that lead up to it are what we call the marital embrace. They are a physical expression of the marital love between husband and wife. It is like a renewal of their wedding vows. They verbally express complete self donation on their wedding day and then physically express it when they consumate their marriage.

Dating relationships are not marriage. It is wrong to treat them as a marriage. Dating is a human invention. It can have its purposes when it comes to discerning marriage. We can get to know what characteristics we want in a spouse, we can grow in our understanding about the opposite sex, and we can take ample time to get to know someone before we commit to them in a marriage. However, it is immoral to use dating as a way to gain marital benefits whether its sexual behaviors or just merely for companionship. When we date people, we really are still in a sense primarily friends. Certainly we are special friends and we may be falling in love, but we are still single individuals. You do not actually belong to each other. So the reasons you are not married (if they are valid reasons) are the same reasons for not expressing physically marital self donation and commitment. You want to be honest in your physical expression, but also you want to keep dating a form of courtship. That is to say that when you are dating, your eyes should be wide open and your heart should be guarded. Dating is looking before you take the huge leap. You should be paying attention closely for any red flags. You should be emotionally ready to break up with them if you discern that you could never marry them. Continuing to date them would be unfair after that point. Once you’re married, that’s when the unconditional love is appropriate. That’s when you accept their flaws unconditionally and work hard at making the marriage last. When you’re dating, if you have relationship problems, its completely appropriate to start questioning whether you want to be with this person. Its inappropriate not to question it. When you’re married, if you have relationship problems, its inappropriate to start questioning whether you want to be with your spouse, and you should work in every way possible to make your relationship work.

Sexual activities ultimately express a lie. They also make it difficult to keep up the right attitude toward dating. Breaking up can be a lot harder because you’re so emotionally bonded to the person.

So how do you deal with it? You remind yourself daily that he is first and foremost your friend and you consider whether or not this is a relationship you want to continue. Honestly while I was single and dating around, I realized I could never marry someone who were merely abstaining for my sake. I think chastity is too hard. It has to be a conviction in both individuals to adequately work.
 
How do I “put up” with this? I really don’t see the trouble with oral/manual pleasure. It isn’t sex, is it? It’s arousal, but is that considered fornication? If arousal is fornication, then why even bother kissing? If oral is wrong, why is kissing not wrong?…And I don’t believe “saving myself” will make my relations with a future husband all that better. What’s separating him from being just a friend vs. my boyfriend?
Click to expand...
Are you serious? Are you honestly asking that question, or attempting to perform a reductio ad absurdum on his religious beliefs and failing miserably?

At the very least, “saving yourself” will give him the possibility of respecting you, and give you the chance of finding a decent husband if it doesn’t work out (not something that non-virgins often can, double-standard or not). It sounds as if, barring a miracle of God, there are here “irreconcilable differences”. If you don’t change, neither of you will be happy, and he will be tempted to sin: if he changes, he has given himself over to Satan. The beliefs aren’t “very, very Catholic”: they’re not even that conservative. He’s not a reactionary or conservative or traditionalist, just a Catholic without adjectives. Those beliefs are held (except for the gay marriage and contraception bits) by even the most liberal Protestant denominations. Fornication damages the soul, society, objectifies the participants, and prohibits the possibility of human dignity and respect therefore.

I am normally a wall of words, a veritable tidal-flow of verbosity, yet here I can not believe…

Si mundus factus est adiuva omnium nostrum Deus: tolle lege.
 
So I want to know from those of you with very, very Catholic beliefs: how can I be more patient? How do I “put up” with this?
Click to expand...
You will only put up with up if you love him and if you continue to pursue to understand where he is coming from. If your serious about giving it a shot at understanding its going to take more than one thread on this forum. I would first recommend you spend time searching through this site for past threads on these subjects to read. I would also say you should ask your boyfriend if he has any material he would recommend for you to read on this subject. You should know that no one picks this stuff up and figures in out in a day or two.

Here is a start on a few old threads worth looking at as a start.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=639807&page=10
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=268540
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=626378

I’d also recommend reading the Catechism and these sections in particular below:

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a6.htm
scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c3a1.htm

It would be hard for people to answer the specific questions you have on Catholic sexual ethics if you don’t understand where it is coming from as a whole.
 
miriamja said:
I am currently dating an amazing man. He is loving, generous, humble and passionate. The only trouble between us stems from our religious differences. He is very, very Catholic, and I, while I believe in God, do not have the same type of faith. My boyfriend says he always prays for me, but perhaps God has made me obstinate, like he made Pharaoh in Exodus.

Our biggest argument is sexual relations. We are both virgins, and he wishes to keep his virginity, which I have respected. And although he’s wavered in the past, he also does not want anything oral or manual. This also I’ve tried to respect, but I do not agree at all. His priority is God and I try to accept it that he places God before me. I am nothing compared to Him.

.
Click to expand...
Your boyfriend sounds like a good man.
Maybe you should find a man who wanna have sex. There are plenty of those out there who can give you that pleasure you desire in every way you want it. There are many guys like that indeed.

A chaste and humble man is a pearl of great price though.

Believe me, when he does sexual stuff with you he looses his innocense and it will bother the ladies he will meet in the future. For some ladies a non-virgin man is not a man they wanna marry. Same with some catholic men. As for men in generel, they like purity in their wives and girlfriends. Even nonreligious men wish for a virgin, and I think its the same for most secular women. I know when I was a secular teenager I used to talk about men with pasts as “damaged goods”. Now I know that such talk is unchristian. God calls us to have mercy on one another… but the nature of love is such that it wishes to be exclusive and only.

So. Why don’t you respect the purity of this man?
Chastity is an attitude about love and responsibilty expressed through committed sexuality, and this is only doable in marriage.

What you are doing now is undermining the relationship and it might make you bf loose respect for you.
I have had boyfriends that pressured me to do sexual stuff, and I lost respect for them, Because what such people really do is they steal from the people they claim to love, they put their own desire higher, and they create regrets.

So if you love him, back off.
 
miriamja said:
If oral is wrong, why is kissing not wrong? Why is sharing a bed (even though we don’t do anything) not wrong?
Click to expand...
A few notes:

Kissing in a chaste way can be a good sign of affection but there is also certain kissing that is not modest or chaste when it is done outside of a marriage (for it basically is to aid to the marital act…). Sharing a bed is also something that is really for marriage. So such is not an argument.
 
miriamja said:
The scripture readings say nothing except not to waste seed, but that could be prevented.
Click to expand...
As to Sacred Scripture…is not limited to what you note…it discusses fornication and lust and other sexual immorality very seriously.

Such as Jesus in Matthew 5:28 speaks about looking at another with lust…and Paul writes in various places about gravely sinful things including sexual immorality (not meaning just fornication though such is also included) such as in Colossians 3:5-10 and he states that no fornicator or impure person will have any inheritance in the Kingdom of God --to not let anyone deceive you with empty words…(in Ephesians 5:5-6).

Quite serious.

(he will note in various places that such was how those he is writing used to act…but they repented…they now they have new life …are a new creation in Christ…and are to consider themselves now dead to such things…and to continue in such life…let us give ourselves to Christ…in him and thus in his Church …in the Sacraments etc is true life.).
 
miriamja said:
Can you help me see his position better? I love him so very much and I am putting forth that last effort to make things work/not let the differences tear us apart.
Click to expand...
Maybe the best way to see his position is to evaluate your own and see where it is lacking. The vibe I get from your OP is that you have turned sex into an end and not a means; meaning you view it as the only thing that could make your love stronger or that it is the only thing that could help you both grow in your love. I think you’re missing a key point that sex is supposed to complement the love which already exists between two individuals and If your relationship can never be good enough without it, then it will never be good enough with it.

I mean ask yourself the question: If your boyfriend was a paraplegic would you still be with him for loves sake even if it meant you would both never have sex? If you both get married and God forbid an accident does happen which results in that outcome, you do know you are still bound to stay with him, right? Maybe it will help you better understand his position when you realize he wants a type of love that will survive even under to most trying of circumstances while the type of love your shooting for is based more on sensual pleassures which won’t have the foundation to withstand trying times.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
 
Perhaps you are focusing too much on the sexual side of your relationship at this time.
Instead you should make every effort to find out more about each other, don’t short cut
the process by dwelling on sex. Have a lot of activities that “tone down” the sexual, but
are enjoyable for both of you. Or uplifting, like volunteering your time and doing it
together.
 
To put it straight up, you are wrong and way off track. You are a Catholic go to confession and talk to a Priest and listen to his counseling.
Peace, Carlan
 
Others have already responded to the major points of your post, but I just have to say that what you do in your relationships now will have an impact on your future marriage. I know when you’re single or dating, it doesn’t seem like it will, but it really does.
 
Khalid, I understand, you love your boyfriend and you want to express your love more. However, it is just as everyone says here. Even though we live in a society telling the evil one’s opposite lies. God can help you tone down your desire if you ask Him. If you do not want to ask His help to do His will because you have no desire to do His will, because you want what you want - He understands; just ask him for the desire to desire to do His will. Or the desire to desire to desire… I take it that far sometimes and He always accommodates me!

The other thing that helps cool things so much is confession. Confess that you feel rebellious about doing God will, and not happy that He is “so demanding” of you. I tell God this sometimes, angrily, even though inside I know His will is best, it just isn’t seeming like it sometimes. And even though I know He is fair, it gives me relief to say, “You are not being fair!” I only half mean it, even though I all-the-way feel it. It is part of going to God “Just as I am” and it does give relief.

Also of course confess your unchaste thoughts. Remember that the Sacraments are Gods ordinary way of pouring out extraordinary graces. So if you think that, in order to be as at peace as your boyfriend is with Gods ways of chastity, you need to have some miraculous amount of graces come over you, then the Sacraments are the place to go for that. Get one giant outpouring in confession, then another giant outpouring when you take a worthy communion. You will have the peace of God and the insisting angst of your desire will be removed for you.
 
Khalid said:
Are you serious? Are you honestly asking that question, or attempting to perform a reductio ad absurdum on his religious beliefs and failing miserably?

At the very least, “saving yourself” will give him the possibility of respecting you, and give you the chance of finding a decent husband if it doesn’t work out (not something that non-virgins often can, double-standard or not). It sounds as if, barring a miracle of God, there are here “irreconcilable differences”. If you don’t change, neither of you will be happy, and he will be tempted to sin: if he changes, he has given himself over to Satan. The beliefs aren’t “very, very Catholic”: they’re not even that conservative. He’s not a reactionary or conservative or traditionalist, just a Catholic without adjectives. Those beliefs are held (except for the gay marriage and contraception bits) by even the most liberal Protestant denominations. Fornication damages the soul, society, objectifies the participants, and prohibits the possibility of human dignity and respect therefore.

I am normally a wall of words, a veritable tidal-flow of verbosity, yet here I can not believe…

Si mundus factus est adiuva omnium nostrum Deus: tolle lege.
Click to expand...
Excuse me, there’s no need to be a jerk about this. I posted for advice, not for judgment from YOU. I’m new here, so maybe that’s how things work on this forum, but that’s not helpful. I decided to come here to figure things out and try to become the person my boyfriend wants me to be, so excuse me if I am off-track and trying to figure life out. I want the best for him and for our relationship, so I ask questions. If I sound stupid, well, what can I tell you…I’M LEARNING. I’m learning to rebuild my faith, so thanks for your encouragement and help. You exemplify the welcoming, Christian spirit so well.

I really don’t understand what warranted your impudence, but I hope you take care.
 
miriamja said:
Excuse me, there’s no need to be a jerk about this. I posted for advice, not for judgment from YOU.
Click to expand...
You’re both wrong, and you’re both right, and I’ll explain why.

Khalid’s understanding of the theological grounds for the prohibition of fornication is spot on. I have absolutely no arguments with it, whatsoever. As a convert from Islam no less, Khalid is an excellent Catholic apologist, I know because I’ve been following his posts from afar (to say nothing of my own quaint forays into apologism on CAF, with my meagre 40-odd posts).
  1. You are right that Khalid could have done without those first two sentences:
Khalid said:
Are you serious? Are you honestly asking that question, or attempting to perform a reductio ad absurdum on his religious beliefs and failing miserably?
Click to expand...
But I think (for the most part) he meant no offense…we who are well versed in Catholic teaching take for granted that people may not know some core tenets of the faith with which we are entirely familiar. I think he reacted firstly with genuine protective concern for the plight of your boyfriend’s soul, and secondly, with genuine surprise at your questions.

Also, his question challenging your introspective ability, that is, your ability to unmask your own intentions. He’s challenging you to ask yourself why you are really here on this forum. Were you hoping to find a practicing Catholic who would tell you that fornication was ok? Or were you truly hoping that someone would help you understand why the Catholic Church teaches as it does on fornication?
  1. However, your responding to him with an ad hominem attack:
Excuse me, there’s no need to be a jerk about this.
Click to expand...
and a sarcastically veiled insult:
You exemplify the welcoming, Christian spirit so well.
Click to expand...
was an equally, (or arguably, more so) un-Christian response to his brusqueness, since his reaction was partly motivated by genuine shock and concern. A Christian should meekly receive wise advice, and be glad to have it. Remember the Golden Rule (do you know it?)?

In case, in your indignation you overlooked it, Khalid did actually supplement his post with information that would be helpful to you, so you should thank him for that.

As to what you said here:
I want the best for him and for our relationship
Click to expand...
your will is unfortunately divided between wanting what’s best for him and what will satisfy your selfish, lustful inclinations. If no part of you wanted to do what is right by him you would not have asked for advice on this forum, so I congratulate you on having the courage and respect for his fidelity to Catholicism to ask about this before forcing him to choose between you and his faith.

On the other hand, lust is a selfish inclination. You’d like to have a more sexually permissive relationship because you would derive selfish, carnal pleasure from it, and in so doing you would be disregarding his inherent dignity as a human being, and instead you would be treating him as a selfish object for your own sexual pleasure, even if that pleasure does not come from sexual intercourse specifically.
 
miriamja said:
Excuse me, there’s no need to be a jerk about this. I posted for advice, not for judgment from YOU. I’m new here, so maybe that’s how things work on this forum, but that’s not helpful. I decided to come here to figure things out and try to become the person my boyfriend wants me to be, so excuse me if I am off-track and trying to figure life out. I want the best for him and for our relationship, so I ask questions. If I sound stupid, well, what can I tell you…I’M LEARNING. I’m learning to rebuild my faith, so thanks for your encouragement and help. You exemplify the welcoming, Christian spirit so well.

I really don’t understand what warranted your impudence, but I hope you take care.
Click to expand...
CONTINUED FROM POST ABOVE:

The only thing I would add to Khalid’s advice are the catechetical teachings (from the Catechism of the Catholic Church) on the virtue of Chastity, and the sexual act:

Chastity
2339 Chastity includes an apprenticeship in self-mastery which is a training in human freedom. The alternative is clear: either man governs his passions and finds peace, or he lets himself be dominated by them and becomes unhappy.126 "Man’s dignity therefore requires him to act out of conscious and free choice, as moved and drawn in a personal way from within, and not by blind impulses in himself or by mere external constraint. Man gains such dignity when, ridding himself of all slavery to the passions, he presses forward to his goal by freely choosing what is good and, by his diligence and skill, effectively secures for himself the means suited to this end."127
Click to expand...
2340 Whoever wants to remain faithful to his baptismal promises and resist temptations will want to adopt the means for doing so: self-knowledge, practice of an ascesis adapted to the situations that confront him, obedience to God’s commandments, exercise of the moral virtues, and fidelity to prayer. "Indeed it is through chastity that we are gathered together and led back to the unity from which we were fragmented into multiplicity."128
Click to expand...
Lust, on the other hand is an offense against charity
2351 Lust is disordered desire for or inordinate enjoyment of sexual pleasure. Sexual pleasure is morally disordered when sought for itself, isolated from its procreative and unitive purposes.
Click to expand...
Sexual acts are for man and wife only, and are ordered toward childrearing:
2366 Fecundity is a gift, an end of marriage, for conjugal love naturally tends to be fruitful. A child does not come from outside as something added on to the mutual love of the spouses, but springs from the very heart of that mutual giving, as its fruit and fulfillment. So the Church, which is "on the side of life,"151 teaches that "it is necessary that each and every marriage act remain ordered per se to the procreation of human life."152 “This particular doctrine, expounded on numerous occasions by the Magisterium, is based on the inseparable connection, established by God, which man on his own initiative may not break, between the unitive significance and the procreative significance which are both inherent to the marriage act.”
Click to expand...
…
Click to expand...
2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality.158 These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, “every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible” is intrinsically evil:159
Click to expand...
Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality. . . . The difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality.160
Click to expand...
Since true, authentic love is self-giving, altruistic, and unconditional, I would argue you cannot truly be in love with your boyfriend unless you are willing to permanently go without sexual relations until the two of you are married. If you cannot love him and abstain from sex or sexual fornication of some kind at the same time, I think you are merely infatuated (which is like love) with him, but not in love.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top