Relations with boyfriend

[Kelfa28]

Excuse me, there’s no need to be a jerk about this. I posted for advice, not for judgment from YOU. I’m new here, so maybe that’s how things work on this forum, but that’s not helpful. I decided to come here to figure things out and try to become the person my boyfriend wants me to be, so excuse me if I am off-track and trying to figure life out. I want the best for him and for our relationship, so I ask questions. If I sound stupid, well, what can I tell you…I’M LEARNING. I’m learning to rebuild my faith, so thanks for your encouragement and help. You exemplify the welcoming, Christian spirit so well.

I really don’t understand what warranted your impudence, but I hope you take care.

Reacting this way won’t bring you to answers. You are actually ignoring the advice Khalid is giving you and are upset because he didn’t sugarcoat it.

I’m a lapsed Catholic who is working hard to come back to her faith. I’ve been living in sin because I’ve lived in a cohabitating lifestyle with my Fiance for quite some time.
I can somewhat understand your reaction to these posts. I felt the same way when I read about how wrong cohabitation and sex before marriage is. The truth was both my Fiance and I had no idea what we were doing was wrong. We were actually encouraged to cohabitate by our families.
When I came back to my faith it was a hard pill to swallow at first. I was looking for someone to tell me “it’s okay…” when it really wasn’t.

You need to read the Catechism. You also need to understand that Catholicism is a mixture of Church traditions and the Scriptures. What you may not find plainly in the Scriptures will be worded quite well within the Catechism.

To answer some of your questions. Certain marital acts, including oral/manual pleasure and even sharing a bed, will ultimately lead to temptation. Temptation leads to sin every time. The more exposed to temptation you are the more likely you will sin.

 

[PumpkinSeed]

Your boyfriend is doing the right thing. If you love him, you will wait till marriage too.

 

[Khalid]

And, you should also ask, is there any reason to delay marriage at all? For St Paul said, “it is better to marry, than to burn”. (Some translations add “in passion”, but I believe the ambiguity was left open specifically.)

Now I say this as a concession and not as a command. I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own gift from God, bone of one kind and one of another. To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is good for them to remain single as I am. But if they cannot exercise restraint, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to burn. (1 Corinthians 7:6-9)

 

[Oh_Charlotte]

What? I’m male! And celibate! LOL

Oh, dear, that was for miriamja! Did not mean to accuse you of having a “boyfriend”, Khalid!

I cannot edit so here is a repost:

Miriamja, I understand, you love your boyfriend and you want to express your love more. However, it is just as everyone says here. Even though we live in a society telling the evil one’s opposite lies. God can help you tone down your desire if you ask Him. If you do not want to ask His help to do His will because you have no desire to do His will, because you want what you want - He understands; just ask him for the desire to desire to do His will. Or the desire to desire to desire… I take it that far sometimes and He always accommodates me!

The other thing that helps cool things so much is confession. Confess that you feel rebellious about doing God will, and not happy that He is “so demanding” of you. I tell God this sometimes, angrily, even though inside I know His will is best, it just isn’t seeming like it sometimes. And even though I know He is fair, it gives me relief to say, “You are not being fair!” I only half mean it, even though I all-the-way feel it. It is part of going to God “Just as I am” and it does give relief.

Also of course confess your unchaste thoughts. Remember that the Sacraments are Gods ordinary way of pouring out extraordinary graces. So if you think that, in order to be as at peace as your boyfriend is with Gods ways of chastity, you need to have some miraculous amount of graces come over you, then the Sacraments are the place to go for that. Get one giant outpouring in confession, then another giant outpouring when you take a worthy communion. You will have the peace of God and the insisting angst of your desire will be removed for you.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

I feel for you. This situation must be very hard, especially if you don’t fully understand why he’s rejecting you. You guys need to talk about this, and keep talking about it until you do. It’s ok to ask the same question over and over again. If this way of viewing sexuality is foreign to you its going to take a lot of repetition and patience for you to really understand his views. You cannot badger him for any sexual activity though. If you do he will dump you, as he very well should for not respecting his boundaries. It may even help to have this conversation in the presence of a priest or other religious adviser. Perhaps they can help him with wording and provide analogies and such to better help you understand.

You also need to talk about how you feel. If you are feeling unattractive, rejected, hurt, insecure, tell him! He can’t reassure you unless he knows how you feel.

If you guys don’t share the same religious beliefs the relationship may not be right for you anyway. Are you going to feel like he’s looking down on you for not being devout enough? Are you going to be annoyed by his religious commitments? Sexual values are only the tip of the iceberg. There are so many things that will come up later that will be just as big, if not bigger issues.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

At the very least, “saving yourself” will give him the possibility of respecting you, and give you the chance of finding a decent husband if it doesn’t work out (not something that non-virgins often can, double-standard or not).

Please disregard this. Any man who doesn’t respect you, sexual history or not is not worth your time. If a man ever gives you the impression that he doesn’t respect you, get rid of him, that shows a serious problem with him, not you. If you want to save yourself do it because you feel its right, not to earn his or any other man’s respect. Women are worth more than their sexual histories or lack thereof.

And non-virgins find decent husbands all the time, even Catholics. (Just read many of the posts on this site.)

 

[GraceDK]

I feel for you. This situation must be very hard, especially if you don’t fully understand why he’s rejecting you.

Rejecting? How so? I think he precisely shows his love therein that he respects her and himself and God so much that he doesn’t wish to damage the relationship by acting like a married man when indeed one or both of them still might leave and probably none of them wanna have a baby right now… I assure you that a Christian feels more deeply rejected when someone is urging him or her to have sexual contact… Because then his/her soul, her future, etc is rejected, and pleasure and false attachment takes the place of the two getting to know each other freely and honestly.

You guys need to talk about this, and keep talking about it until you do. It’s ok to ask the same question over and over again.

The OP might also read the Word of God and read up on church teaching and pray over this. Having to all the time explain why one wont sin is pretty tirering and it also damages the relationship. I know because I have had a few boyfriends who thought things were up for debate. A partner is also a partner and not a teacher… .

If this way of viewing sexuality is foreign to you its going to take a lot of repetition and patience for you to really understand his views. You cannot badger him for any sexual activity though. If you do he will dump you, as he very well should for not respecting his boundaries. It may even help to have this conversation in the presence of a priest or other religious adviser. Perhaps they can help him with wording and provide analogies and such to better help you understand.

The young lady needs to work on becoming mature in Christ and seek guidance that would last beyond the relationship.

You also need to talk about how you feel. If you are feeling unattractive, rejected, hurt, insecure, tell him! He can’t reassure you unless he knows how you feel.
If you guys don’t share the same religious beliefs the relationship may not be right for you anyway. Are you going to feel like he’s looking down on you for not being devout enough? Are you going to be annoyed by his religious commitments? Sexual values are only the tip of the iceberg. There are so many things that will come up later that will be just as big, if not bigger issues.

**I agree with you about that. Sexuality is something very deep in Christian ethics, its really about the nature of love, and about man and womans relationship with each other, which the whole of society rests on. Where people loose respect for purity also families are destroyed and mistrust comes in between lovers and spouses… You can see from CAF that Catholics are not uninterested in sex. They embrace sexuality as a high and beautiful thing with a lot of responsibility… for that reason, one might well feel threatened if ones partner doesn’t understand these views. Because its ultimately about the nature of exclusive, selfdonating love, and just like you don’t say “I love you” to everyone without people loosing faith in your words, you also cannot make such a big commitment through your body to many people, and not become somehow jaded. **

 

[GraceDK]

Please disregard this. Any man who doesn’t respect you, sexual history or not is not worth your time. If a man ever gives you the impression that he doesn’t respect you, get rid of him, that shows a serious problem with him, not you. If you want to save yourself do it because you feel its right, not to earn his or any other man’s respect. Women are worth more than their sexual histories or lack thereof.

And non-virgins find decent husbands all the time, even Catholics. (Just read many of the posts on this site.)

Indeed. You should know that khalid comes from Islam… and Islam often unfortunately has a reductionist view of women in the sense that a woman who has lost her virginity is a huge shame to her family and unable to find a good man. Whereas the men… well not the same standards for them… nuff said.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Indeed. You should know that khalid comes from Islam… and Islam often unfortunately has a reductionist view of women in the sense that a woman who has lost her virginity is a huge shame to her family and unable to find a good man. Whereas the men… well not the same standards for them… nuff said.

Sadly some Christian groups (mostly very conservative Protestants) also have this view. Its very sad to me. To me valuing a woman based on her purity is the same as “reading” playboy. Either way you aren’t valuing her for who she is or even as a person, just for what she has to offer sexually.

Not to say that virginity isn’t admirable, but it doesn’t make a woman “worth” more.

 

[Oh_Charlotte]

Sadly some Christian groups (mostly very conservative Protestants) also have this view. Its very sad to me. To me valuing a woman based on her purity is the same as “reading” playboy. Either way you aren’t valuing her for who she is or even as a person, just for what she has to offer sexually.

Not to say that virginity isn’t admirable, but it doesn’t make a woman “worth” more.

Virginity has great worth! I must say this. It is not right to downplay that it has great worth - God picked a virgin for His mother! To lose it is surely a loss.

But there are many kinds of losses; it is life on earth. God understands when we lose it over our own foolishness, or having it stolen, or persuaded away by unchaste others when we are vulnerable because no one was protecting us in our naivety. God sees all, and only He knows the heart. A truly good man will not disrespect his wife for not being a virgin as long as she is chaste, and he feels he can trust her conviction towards chastity is true. So I think you will agree, as this is almost what you were saying.

And I agree, Khalid is wrong, uncharitable, and not godly in his statement. He is reflecting his cultural error - a culture that lacks knowledge of the True God, who is Love and Mercy.

Think of Mary Magdalene. Surely she who spend time with the holy Blessed Virgin Mother wished she, also, could go back in time and retrieve her own beautiful virginity. And certainty Jesus assured her how greatly He valued and loved her just as she is. Because look what He told her: that she had surpassed in love her good and obedient sister Martha! Yes, Mary of Magdala, who just a year or so before had been living the very worst sort of unchaste life. But Jesus knew her repentant heart, that is why He said what He did…

…

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Virginity has great worth! I must say this. It is not right to downplay that it has great worth - God picked a virgin for His mother! To lose it is surely a loss.

But there are many kinds of losses; it is life on earth. God understands when we lose it over our own foolishness, or having it stolen, or persuaded away by unchaste others when we are vulnerable because no one was protecting us in our naivety. God sees all, and only He knows the heart. A truly good man will not disrespect his wife for not being a virgin as long as she is chaste, and he feels he can trust her conviction towards chastity is true. So I think you will agree, as this is almost what you were saying.

And I agree, Khalid is wrong, uncharitable, and not godly in his statement. He is reflecting his cultural error - a culture that lacks knowledge of the True God, who is Love and Mercy.

Think of Mary Magdalene. Surely she who spend time with the holy Blessed Virgin Mother wished she, also, could go back in time and retrieve her own beautiful virginity. And certainty Jesus assured her how greatly He valued and loved her just as she is. Because look what He told her: that she had surpassed in love her good and obedient sister Martha! Yes, Mary of Magdala, who just a year or so before had been living the very worst sort of unchaste life. But Jesus knew her repentant heart, that is why He said what He did…

…

I completely understand and respect that to a great many people virginity is very valuable. (I don’t agree to the same extent, but that’s not the point.) But a woman is not worth more or less as a woman or a person based on her virginal status. Just as a college degree is worth a lot and means a lot, it doesn’t determine the value of a person. (I understand that you see virginity as more meaningful than a college degree, but it’s just an analogy.)

 

[Oh_Charlotte]

I completely understand and respect that to a great many people virginity is very valuable. (I don’t agree to the same extent, but that’s not the point.) But a woman is not worth more or less as a woman or a person based on her virginal status. Just as a college degree is worth a lot and means a lot, it doesn’t determine the value of a person. (I understand that you see virginity as more meaningful than a college degree, but it’s just an analogy.)

BlueElyedLady, you are so right, it does not make a woman worth any more or any less! I am just saying, consider that what I believe may have some truth to it: that there is a great spiritual and mystical benefit to virginity. Yes, much more meaningful than a college degree (though we have to work real hard for these, they are way over-rated! And can be a stumbling block of pride to many, and it those cases they would be much better off with no degree! Seriously, education is overrated. Its a difference between intelligence and wisdom. Wisdom is the greater gift, and I am sure you have seen, God often grants it great amount to the humble simple. Remember, Hitler was intelligent and educated… without goodness and wisdom, it is nothing.

But while not all have the will, the graces, or the blessed circumstances to remain virgins, anyone can choose chastity. With God, Who is Love and Mercy, it is not about the past but about the present, and where you will to go in the future, even if you stumble on the way…

And there are unchaste virgins and chaste ex-prostitutes. Guess whose company the holy angels prefer… Yes. I think you know the answer to that.

…

 

[GraceDK]

Sadly some Christian groups (mostly very conservative Protestants) also have this view. Its very sad to me. To me valuing a woman based on her purity is the same as “reading” playboy. Either way you aren’t valuing her for who she is or even as a person, just for what she has to offer sexually.

Not to say that virginity isn’t admirable, but it doesn’t make a woman “worth” more.

Jesus was and is purity Himself.
I know a lot of people who have seen Him. Yes. And they all talk about his eyes. His eyes are pure and full of love. When you see those eyes you say like the disciple Peter: “Go from me Lord, for I am not worthy!”

You are right… both those who strip women and objectify them, and those who dress them in burkas and reduce them to virginity sin. You are right, they all reduce women to their sexual value, and the Catholic Church says we may not do this.

Neither must we reduce a man to his sexual worth… and oh yes, this happens alot also in the Western world, where men who cannot “perform” are abandoned…
Those who want a performance are jaded. Yet a man is not created to perform… he is created to give himself as a gift of love and to be recieved as such.

I have been in different Churches… evangelical, messianic, lutheran and catholic… they all say the same thing about the topic of virginity. Mary of Magdala is a big saint and role model… so are the other repentant sinners in the Gospels.
Jesus is the role model to follow.

An unrepentant sinner will lead a trail of death behind him or her and their ways end up in nothing. But tears of repentance, mixed with the Blood of Christ, wash us white as snow. Repentance is necessary. Sin blinds people.

However, I think there is also common sense to guarding ones purity. And God gave us all a conscience. Also secular people can and do feel used and trown away, when they engage in sexual relationships that do not lead to marriage or they are abandoned. I know this from friends who are agnostic… also men.
Our nature wants perfect and faithful love. Sexuality is always only a vehicle of love, or else it is perverted… and mind you, not a hollywood kind of love, but exclusive committed and faithful love that sticks around when the going gets tough.

My best friend came back to the Church through the wonderful writings of Theology of the Body, after she felt she had cast herself to the world in little pieces. God has and is healing her and using her mightily to tell people how to avoid regrets.

We cannot chance the past, but we can choose chastity today. And I hope the OP will do that.

 

[Jesusismyfriend]

I am currently dating an amazing man. He is loving, generous, humble and passionate. The only trouble between us stems from our religious differences. He is very, very Catholic, and I, while I believe in God, do not have the same type of faith. My boyfriend says he always prays for me, but perhaps God has made me obstinate, like he made Pharaoh in Exodus.

Our biggest argument is sexual relations. We are both virgins, and he wishes to keep his virginity, which I have respected. And although he’s wavered in the past, he also does not want anything oral or manual. This also I’ve tried to respect, but I do not agree at all. His priority is God and I try to accept it that he places God before me. I am nothing compared to Him.

So I want to know from those of you with very, very Catholic beliefs: how can I be more patient? How do I “put up” with this? I really don’t see the trouble with oral/manual pleasure. It isn’t sex, is it? It’s arousal, but is that considered fornication? If arousal is fornication, then why even bother kissing? If oral is wrong, why is kissing not wrong? Why is sharing a bed (even though we don’t do anything) not wrong? The scripture readings say nothing except not to waste seed, but that could be prevented. There are songs that supposedly refer to oral pleasure. I know that one can still get STDs from oral pleasure, but we are both clean. And I don’t believe “saving myself” will make my relations with a future husband all that better. What’s separating him from being just a friend vs. my boyfriend?

I really don’t know what to do, I need help understanding his point of view. And although he and I have spoken about it a lot…I still don’t get it (aka we’re stubborn and I still feel how I feel and he feels how he does). It’s a stale-mate and no negotiation or compromise seems possible.

Can you help me see his position better? I love him so very much and I am putting forth that last effort to make things work/not let the differences tear us apart.

If you love him, respect his beliefs. I believe oral sex is as much intercourse as regular intercourse.
What’s separating him from being just a friend vs. my boyfriend? It’s your commitment to each other. What I am hearing from you is that you love him deeply and you want the relationship to last and work. That’s a commitment. Most people do not commit to friendships the way you are commited to your relationship. That’s what seperates it. And that can be as important in the grand sceme of things as sex.

 

[Khalid]

Indeed. You should know that khalid comes from Islam… and Islam often unfortunately has a reductionist view of women in the sense that a woman who has lost her virginity is a huge shame to her family and unable to find a good man. Whereas the men… well not the same standards for them… nuff said.

I agree that I am probably influenced by my background - it is inevitable, as we all are - but I found no favor there (nor do I find it many other places, either amongst men or feminists), that I hold men to the same standard, which, “since women are deficient in intellect and religion and Allah has provided men for their maintenance”, etc. is a verboten view in Islam (as I have found it to often be outside of Islam: the preferred view being, “don’t hold standards for either sex, instead of holding both to the same standards”).

I hold myself to the same standard nonetheless. I am, sadly, not a virgin: I shall not marry. (Albeit I wouldn’t have in any case, and, even after half a decade of soul-searching, I have never figured out why I decided or let myself be decided in to having relations of the type, since they hold little attraction for me - what a horrible sin, to be given such a great grace of God, and to metaphorically spit on it, to throw it away - even though it took me more effort to sin, than it would have had to remain chaste: how often does God give the charism of such, that it is harder to sin, than to not, and the man receiving it is so damnably ungrateful he expends the extra effort in order to sin anyways? If anything, that convinced me of the nature of “original sin”, even though I was not yet a Christian, and still a Muslim.)

I do (whether it is a sin of pride or not, I know not) pride myself on ridding myself of unwanted Islamico-cultural baggage and ignorance, and not letting it consciously influence me, while eradicating its subconscious influence over time. Whether that’s possible or not (psychologists would probably say that it isn’t, spending infancy and formative years in a society surrounded by such a view, although mine own parents did not hold to it themselves) is a different question.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I am currently dating an amazing man. He is loving, generous, humble and passionate. The only trouble between us stems from our religious differences. He is very, very Catholic, and I, while I believe in God, do not have the same type of faith. My boyfriend says he always prays for me, but perhaps God has made me obstinate, like he made Pharaoh in Exodus.

Our biggest argument is sexual relations. We are both virgins, and he wishes to keep his virginity, which I have respected. And although he’s wavered in the past, he also does not want anything oral or manual. This also I’ve tried to respect, but I do not agree at all. His priority is God and I try to accept it that he places God before me. I am nothing compared to Him.

So I want to know from those of you with very, very Catholic beliefs: how can I be more patient? How do I “put up” with this? I really don’t see the trouble with oral/manual pleasure. It isn’t sex, is it? It’s arousal, but is that considered fornication? If arousal is fornication, then why even bother kissing? If oral is wrong, why is kissing not wrong? Why is sharing a bed (even though we don’t do anything) not wrong? The scripture readings say nothing except not to waste seed, but that could be prevented. There are songs that supposedly refer to oral pleasure. I know that one can still get STDs from oral pleasure, but we are both clean. And I don’t believe “saving myself” will make my relations with a future husband all that better. What’s separating him from being just a friend vs. my boyfriend?

I really don’t know what to do, I need help understanding his point of view. And although he and I have spoken about it a lot…I still don’t get it (aka we’re stubborn and I still feel how I feel and he feels how he does). It’s a stale-mate and no negotiation or compromise seems possible.

Can you help me see his position better? I love him so very much and I am putting forth that last effort to make things work/not let the differences tear us apart.

Yes, I can help you. Please stop tempting him, and yourself, by passionate kissing, by touching, by laying in the same bed together! You are playing with fire. Sex is for marriage, because having children is the natural outcome of having sex. Now, you say “but oral and manual don’t make babies,” but they are acts that are not proper on their own. They are sins, because the sexual arousal is purely selfish and does not unite the people involved. You cannot stimulate him, that is masturbation by proxy. Any sexual act outside of marriage is sin. Passionate kissing can, without a great deal of self-control, lead to other acts, so best avoid that.

So, to recap: Sex is meant for marriage, because it bonds the husband and wife and also creates babies. Catholics are to be open to life with every sexual act, and since having sex means that you are open to life, why would you “play married” just to have sex with your boyfriend? You must believe you have found a way around the prohibition against pre-marital sex “We’ll do oral or manual,” but these are both sins (except for very specific uses WITHIN marriage). One way or another you are pressing your boyfriend to gravely sin. Doesn’t auger well for your future. If I were to advise him, I would tell him to think very carefully about continuing the relationship, because instead of trying to help him get to Heaven, which is what a wife should do for a husband, you are tempting him to gravely sin, and in a way that will forever change him. If he gives up his virginity to you, and you do not end up married, he has given away the precious gift of his sexuality to someone not his wife.

There can be no negotiation when it comes to chastity. Either you will be chaste, or you won’t be. If you don’t see the reason for it, then this man is not for you. Do him a favor and go find a man who wants to fornicate and sees no reason to stay pure until marriage. There are many, many of them, but they may not even want to marry you, so be aware of that. You may say I am being cruel, but these are the facts. You say you want to understand his POV, but you also want what you want, which is sexual satisfaction. You can’t have both with this man.

p.s. You call yourself a virgin, but I suspect you have had some sexual contact before this current boyfriend, because to you being a virgin seems to mean not having had sexual intercourse. Other acts let you remain technically a virgin. But pure, you would not be.