Relationship and responsibility

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by sinnerdexter
True. Jesus himself said, “Those who use the sword are sooner or later destroyed by it” (Mt 26:52)

I think that in both these cases similar things are said, not contradictory things.
sinnerdexer says that we should be “relative” pacificists.
o_milly ways that we may use force if the aggressor resists her efforts to compel the aggressor to stop aggressing. I see relativeness in this statement. Non-“force” efforts should be tried first. If only force is left, that force must be measured ot only that which is required to stop the opposing force.
Then we need to go back to non-force methods.

Peace
James

 

[sinnerdexter]

Catholics are not “People of the Book” but “People of the Word.” The Church, through its Magisterium, interprets authoritatively Scritpure and Tradition. To take from scripture one verse and elevate it as controlling of all other verses is the basis of heresy (from the Greek “hairesis” to choose).

Is it heresy to oppose all violence to human beings in any form whatsoever, even in self-defense?

Gandhi said, “If you Christians were more like your Christ, the whole world would be Christian.”

 

[sinnerdexter]

If you, as an unjust aggressor, resist my efforts to compel you to stop the evil that you do to the point that I must use violence upon you to bring about that end, then my act toward you is medicinal and comes from charity…

Could you please give us an example of this? I am thinking Hitler

 

[alitaptap]

If you, as an unjust aggressor, resist my efforts to compel you to stop the evil that you do to the point that I must use violence upon you to bring about that end, then my act toward you is medicinal and comes from charity.

Catholics are not “People of the Book” but “People of the Word.” The Church, through its Magisterium, interprets authoritatively Scritpure and Tradition. To take from scripture one verse and elevate it as controlling of all other verses is the basis of heresy (from the Greek “hairesis” to choose).

What is your interpretation of “to love others the way Jesus loved us”?

 

[o_mlly]

Is it heresy to oppose all violence to human beings in any form whatsoever, even in self-defense? …

It would seem that CCC #2265 says so.

Could you please give us an example of this? I am thinking Hitler.

What is your interpretation of “to love others the way Jesus loved us”?

Christian love wills goodness (an increase in intimacy with God) to all. Did Jesus love the money changers in the temple? I think He did. His righteous anger and subsequent violence was directed at increasing their goodness by ending their evil acts – defiling the temple.

From the CCC:

1765 … The apprehension of evil causes hatred, aversion, and fear of the impending evil; this movement ends in sadness at some present evil, or in the anger that resists it.

2310 Public authorities, in this case, have the right and duty to impose on citizens the obligations necessary for national defense.

2311 Public authorities should make equitable provision for those who for reasons of conscience refuse to bear arms; these are nonetheless obliged to serve the human community in some other way.

2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but **a grave duty **for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.

2266 … Punishment then, in addition to defending public order and protecting people’s safety, has a medicinal purpose: as far as possible, it must contribute to the correction of the guilty party.

 

[alitaptap]

Christian love wills goodness (an increase in intimacy with God) to all. Did Jesus love the money changers in the temple? I think He did. His righteous anger and subsequent violence was directed at increasing their goodness by ending their evil acts – defiling the temple.

From the CCC:

1765 … The apprehension of evil causes hatred, aversion, and fear of the impending evil; this movement ends in sadness at some present evil, or in the anger that resists it.

2310 Public authorities, in this case, have the right and duty to impose on citizens the obligations necessary for national defense.

2311 Public authorities should make equitable provision for those who for reasons of conscience refuse to bear arms; these are nonetheless obliged to serve the human community in some other way.

2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but **a grave duty **for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.

2266 … Punishment then, in addition to defending public order and protecting people’s safety, has a medicinal purpose: as far as possible, it must contribute to the correction of the guilty party.

Thank you for your answer. I appreciate it. I think the most obvious way to interpret what it means “to love others the way Jesus loved us” is to look to Jesus as a model on which to base one’s life. Do you agree?

Jesus said, “… love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you.” – Matthew 5:44

It’s tough. But Jesus who said it, did it. He died for us while we were still sinners. He loved us while we were still “enemies.” In fact, His literal enemies who crucified Him He forgave on the cross!

Jesus said at the last supper that "He who obeys the commandments he has from me is the man who loves me" (Jn 14:21)

 

[sinnerdexter]

It would seem that CCC #2265 says so.

Christian love wills goodness (an increase in intimacy with God) to all. Did Jesus love the money changers in the temple? I think He did. His righteous anger and subsequent violence was directed at increasing their goodness by ending their evil acts – defiling the temple.

From the CCC:

1765 … The apprehension of evil causes hatred, aversion, and fear of the impending evil; this movement ends in sadness at some present evil, or in the anger that resists it.

2310 Public authorities, in this case, have the right and duty to impose on citizens the obligations necessary for national defense.

2311 Public authorities should make equitable provision for those who for reasons of conscience refuse to bear arms; these are nonetheless obliged to serve the human community in some other way.

2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but **a grave duty **for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.

2266 … Punishment then, in addition to defending public order and protecting people’s safety, has a medicinal purpose: as far as possible, it must contribute to the correction of the guilty party.

Why do you think Catholic Church wrote this rule? What is the moral significance of this action? How does this action measure up the yardstick of love? Kindly explain.

 

[sinnerdexter]

sinnerdexter;6649015:

We are asked by Jesus to become perfect like the Father. Is it possible for us, limited human beings, to become perfect as the Father?

I do not believe that Christ would set a bar so high that it cannot be reached. Therefore I must say that it is “possible”. But please note that terms “can” and “possible” are far different than “will” and “probable”.
Forgetting the past, we can look forward and say - “Yes I will be perfect from here on out.” If we remain “perfect” then we have achieved what Christ asked. If we do not remain “perfect”, if we fail, then we must repent, pick ourselves up and forget the past and look forward and say…

So…
Can we??? Of course we can.
Will We??? History indicates we will fail many times on our journey.
Thank God for confession…

Our call to perfection presupposes a careful observance of the commandments as guidelines to inner freedom.

 

[o_mlly]

Why do you think Catholic Church wrote this rule? What is the moral significance of this action? How does this action measure up the yardstick of love? Kindly explain.

The Magisterium, inspired by the Holy Spirit, reveals to us the Word of God. The Church writes what the Spirit reveals. Love, as a theological virtue, is an act of will informed by the intellect rather than a fleeting emotion emanating from mere sense experience. Charity directs us to be good, do good and avoid evil. Evil is the absence of goodness.

The object of our charity is our God, our neighbor and ourselves. Charity understood in this sense allows and requires us to be our brother’s keeper. If our brother is doing evil or threatening to do evil, we have an obligation to increase the presence of goodness, that is, God’s presence in the world. We effect an increase in God’s presence positively be being and doing good, and negatively by eliminating evil.

From the CCC:
1824 Fruit of the Spirit and fullness of the Law, charity keeps the commandments of God and his Christ: “Abide in my love. If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love.”

1829 The fruits of charity are joy, peace, and mercy; charity demands beneficence and fraternal correction; it is benevolence; it fosters reciprocity and remains disinterested and generous; it is friendship and communion …

 

[JRKH]

Our call to perfection presupposes a careful observance of the commandments as guidelines to inner freedom.

I agree, but it does not stop there.
Jesus saw and taught that mere obedience, while good, was not sufficient. The Pharasees were obedient to and enforced obedience to “the Law” but they did not understand the spirit of the Law that would allow them to apply the Law’s justly.

Perfection calls, not just for simple obedience of the commandments, but more. It calls for an understanding of the reasons for the commandments. Like in the other thread where I asked about tracing all “rules” back to Love, Understanding how these “rules of behavior” stem from Love allows us to understand an properly apply the rules in our lives.
It internalizes a single “Rule”, the Rule of Love, instead of a whole list of rules that, after all, only and attempt to express that single Rule of Love in various aspects of our lives.

A list of “rules” will almost always have exceptions and nuances to be addressed, the single “Rule of Love”, properly internalized, has no exceptions no nuances to be addressed. The Rule of Love, God in our hearts and at our head, will guide us to true understanding of all the other rules.

When we are spiriually small and immature, rules guide us toward God’s Love. They give us certain boundaries within which to explore and grow. But rules are quite limited and limiting. If one is intellectually or spritually unable to go further, such as those who are developmentally disabled, then following rules is all that can be expected. For those who can, growing into “perfection” requires going beyond siomple “rule following”. It requires an internalization of the principles upon which the rules are based.

Sorry if the above is disjointed. Sort of a “stream of conscienceness” post.

Peace
jaems

 

[sinnerdexter]

I agree, but it does not stop there.
Jesus saw and taught that mere obedience, while good, was not sufficient. The Pharasees were obedient to and enforced obedience to “the Law” but they did not understand the spirit of the Law that would allow them to apply the Law’s justly.

Perfection calls, not just for simple obedience of the commandments, but more. It calls for an understanding of the reasons for the commandments. Like in the other thread where I asked about tracing all “rules” back to Love, Understanding how these “rules of behavior” stem from Love allows us to understand an properly apply the rules in our lives.
It internalizes a single “Rule”, the Rule of Love, instead of a whole list of rules that, after all, only and attempt to express that single Rule of Love in various aspects of our lives.

A list of “rules” will almost always have exceptions and nuances to be addressed, the single “Rule of Love”, properly internalized, has no exceptions no nuances to be addressed. The Rule of Love, God in our hearts and at our head, will guide us to true understanding of all the other rules.

When we are spiriually small and immature, rules guide us toward God’s Love. They give us certain boundaries within which to explore and grow. But rules are quite limited and limiting. If one is intellectually or spritually unable to go further, such as those who are developmentally disabled, then following rules is all that can be expected. For those who can, growing into “perfection” requires going beyond siomple “rule following”. It requires an internalization of the principles upon which the rules are based.

Sorry if the above is disjointed. Sort of a “stream of conscienceness” post.

Peace
jaems

Of course you can go beyond. I was saying that we need to strive even more to keep the commandments, not out of fear of breaking the law, but out of love of Christ.

 

[JRKH]

Of course you can go beyond. I was saying that we need to strive even more to keep the commandments, not out of fear of breaking the law, but out of love of Christ.

With this I heartily agree. In fact I believe that one of the biggest and most wonderful signs of Spiritual growth is when our lives are driven, not by fear of punishment, but by Love of God and neighbor. At this point - when Love drives out fear - we begin to keep the commandments with Joy not Apprehension.

Love remains the key to be sure.

Peace
James

 

[Ponyguy]

Imagine you are walking with a friend, when you suddenly come upon a group of men beating up a young person your own age. Both you and your friend begin shouting for help, but do nothing to try to stop what is going on out of fear of what could happen to yourselves. Suddenly you realize that the young person being beaten up is your own younger brother. In an instant, an automatic reaction causes you to forget what could happen to you, and you rush into the group of men trying to stop them from hurting your brother.

I’ve read through this thread rather quickly, but I’m still not sure just exactly what the OP’s question is.

Is the OP questioning why it was only after I recognized that my own brother was under attack that I began to get physically involved in the fracas?

Jesus remanded us to “Turn the other cheek,” and to “Love our enemies” a number of times; however, when He observed wrongdoing, He also did some appropriate booty-kicking of the swindlers at the Temple. Maybe He showed us that man only has two cheeks on his face, and there comes a time to do something about the aggressor.

Regards,
Ponyguy

 

[sinnerdexter]

I"Love our enemies" a number of times;

We must conform to this rule.

however, when He observed wrongdoing, He also did some appropriate booty-kicking of the swindlers at the Temple. Maybe He showed us that man only has two cheeks on his face, and there comes a time to do something about the aggressor.

This is simply a correction.

 

[sinnerdexter]

With this I heartily agree. In fact I believe that one of the biggest and most wonderful signs of Spiritual growth is when our lives are driven, not by fear of punishment, but by Love of God and neighbor. At this point - when Love drives out fear - we begin to keep the commandments with Joy not Apprehension.

Love remains the key to be sure.

Peace
James

True. In speaking of the central importance of the love we have by possessing the Spirit given to us by Jesus, St. Paul gives us one of the most beautiful and most frequently quoted passages of Scripture.

Love is patient; love is kind. Love is not jealous, it does not put on airs, it is not snobbish. Love is never ruse, it is not self-seeking, it is not prone to anger; neither does it brood over injuries. Love does not rejoice in what is wrong but rejoice in the truth. There is no limit to love’s forbearance, to its trust, its hope, its power to endure.
-1 Cor 13:4-7

None of us measures up to this kind of love. But it is the Spirit of Love given to us by Jesus that draws us toward an ever greater degree of this kind of Christlike love. It is through the eyes of this love that we see others be truly our brothers and sisters, that we grow to seek the good of others as much as we do our own, and that we find it possible to love even our enemy.