Relationship in the gutter.

[flyingfish]

I did not state however that her bonding with her sexual partner caused her depression. I said that it conflicted with her beliefs and what she knew her family would want for her. This mental and spiritual conflict could have caused her depression. It would make logical sense if it did.

I agree that the conflict with her family is probably contributing to her depression, but I would not assume it was the thing that brought it about in the first place.

The OP said that the depression came with her loss of belief in God, that makes the most sense to me. If you spent your entire life believing in God, planned your goals and your future around this, and then came to believe that there is no God it’s bound to create a lot of confusion, a sense of loss. Especially so if her faith was strong and much of her life was based on God, if she prayed a lot and so on.

I think beside her loss of belief in God, sex with her boyfriend is like a drop in the ocean. And for all we know, it might actually be making her happier.

In general - not in all cases or particulars - men and women’s sexuality operates differently. A case in point are the vast throngs of young women flocking to see New Moon and the other Twilight series movies. Why are they enamoured with a beautiful and sexy vampire who won’t sleep with his one and only love unless it is forever? Women’s sexuality works differently. A man (if his beliefs don’t get in the way) usually can have sex any time any where with almost anyone. Women not usually.

Just so you know, I am a woman (and I like the Twilight series). I agree that men and women approach sex differently, but I daresay not that differently. After all, we’re not talking about one night stands with random people met at frat parties.

Unless the OP pressured her into sex, which he said he did not, I don’t think it’s a source of stress for her. I also don’t think that her family’s beliefs about sex in particular are something that is bothering her. Their reaction to her loss of faith is probably the main thing that’s bothering her with respect to them.

And I don’t think that the OP calling her to ask her mother to treat her better is the same as asking her mother to approve of atheism and premarital sex (which she probably doesn’t even know they’re doing, after all who tells their parents that). She can disagree with her beliefs while still being loving and supportive of her daughter. There is no conflict there.

I guess we can tell her to take her contraceptives and maybe some anti-depressants, tell her she has a problem that needs to be fixed while her boyfriend is kind, normal and healthy and she needs to be more "fun to be around’ again.

It’s possible that she needs antidepressants, it’s possible that she doesn’t. The best advice I would think would be for her to focus on her friendships, relationships, school, the volunteering she used to do, hobbies, and other fun activities. Sleeping, exercising, eating well, all those things are important.

It will take time for her to stabilize “philosophically”, she will probably read a lot and talk a lot about it (and talking to a counselor who has encountered this again and again would likely be very helpful). But while she is doing all that it is important to work on her health and personal relationships.

I am also speaking from some experience, since when I was her age I struggled a lot with faith, and I remember still sitting in Church, trying to pray and having the sensation of there being absolutely no one there hit me pretty hard. It lasted for a while for me, caused all sorts of turmoil, but eventually I resolved it (and I had to go to counseling and take antidepressants:shrug.

 

[monicatholic]

but for those of you who did not, did it take away your Catholic faith and and make you so depressed that people suggested you see a psychiatrist?

yes. absolutely. me.

OP’s girlfriend and i were raised by deeply believing Catholic parents. in our hearts, we became deep believers. that belief renders us incapable of casually committing mortal sin. In us, the mortality of sin is obvious-- mortal meaning, death-- we die inside. the agonizing conflict between deep faith and boldfaced sin is, it turns out, a true gift.

I knew I had died inside. I spent a lotta years trying to re-program my brain to be free of sexual guilt on which I blamed the Catholic Church. Re-progamming didn’t set me free. God’s Truth set me free.

I think beside her loss of belief in God, sex with her boyfriend is like a drop in the ocean. And for all we know, it might actually be making her happier.

mortal sin never makes us happier; it kills our relationship with God.

 

[whatevergirl]

yes. absolutely. me.

OP’s girlfriend and i were raised by deeply believing Catholic parents. in our hearts, we became deep believers. that belief renders us incapable of casually committing mortal sin. In us, the mortality of sin is obvious-- mortal meaning, death-- we die inside. the agonizing conflict between deep faith and boldfaced sin is, it turns out, a true gift.

I knew I had died inside. I spent a lotta years trying to re-program my brain to be free of sexual guilt on which I blamed the Catholic Church. Re-progamming didn’t set me free. God’s Truth set me free.

mortal sin never makes us happier; it kills our relationship with God.

I am starting to think this is why she is so very depressed and lost…but she can’t see the forest through the trees, so to speak.

 

[DJgang]

You are in my prayers.

 

[djeter]

This may have nothing to do with your “relationship in the gutter” problems but I have found many people have appreciated the recommendation.

To whit: back in the 80’s Raymond Carver wrote a short story called “What We Talk About When We Talk About Love”. It is a classic that is on an Esquire list of 75 books that every man (and woman, for that fact) should read. I think you may recognize yourself in some of the situations and relationships.

I found a reflection on it by a professor at San Diego State University. My selections from it start here:

payingattentiontothesky.com/what-we-talk-about-when-we-talk-about-love/

I’m sorry for your problems and hope you can make some good choices. My prayers to you also.

dj

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Dude: You should see my in box.

Gosh. You say “zealot” like it’s a bad thing.

I suspect those who are PMing you also tend toward your relativistic and individualistic philosophical stance in life. I live in reality. I am not the one who helped drive a perfectly delightful sane girl to the brink of emotional devastation and nihilism. The one commonality in her plight is her association with you. I didn’t put her in the emotional gutter.

So don’t preach to me about reality. It’s when people try to live disjointed from “reality” that they either have to change the world around them, or they have to readjust their own minds. She’s having trouble adjusting to “your” reality, which she has to do to fit into your world and your bed.

FlyingFish, I know you mean well. But some of us are taking the long view here based on more experience in life. Absolutely her having sex with him is at the crux of this issue. He met a lovely delightful moral girl full of the grace of God. So much so that his friends even were “jealous” of him. Then he trashed her. How? He began telling her how wonderful his life was free of God. (reread his first posts) and he wooed her and finally PERSUADED her (it was difficult he admits, to get her to give up her virginity. She was conflicted about doing that) to begin sleeping with him. It’s good for him, and he says it’s good for her (because she has what to compare him to?) and to avoid any chance of pregnancy (he thinks) she is now on birth control, which she wasn’t, presumably, before he began his sexual relationship with her. Those are some pretty powerful chemicals to have going through your body. She may be reacting to them along with the knowlege that her soul is dead in mortal sin. And her loss of family closeness. All she has left in her life now is BF and his need to copulate with her because it makes him feel good.

Do other young women have depression like this on this level? I daresay, not the ones who have not been talked out of even believing there is a loving forgiving God at the end of this to welcome them back. Even the Catholic girls I knew who were misbehaving took a “That’s what confession is for. I’ll go… someday.” view. While presumptive and wrong, they still knew redemption was possible. This girl has lost that. Do NOT underestimate the power of someone who is sexually involved with you to change your world view. Especially your “first.” But her newly-adopted world view does not correspond to the reality of Baptism sealed on her very soul.

Why are we hung up on the sex? Because it’s his hook into her. If he would stop that, she might be able to detach. Here. Let’s substitute a few words:

I have not rejected giving up sex. What I am saying is that I do not know if this is the correct course of action. At least not yet. If sex is important to her, and she is depressed, taking it away form her might make things worse. That is why I want her to see a psychiatrist as the first course of action. If the psychiatrist cannot help her, and it is obvious that she needs her belief in God, I will commit myself to making that happen, and then we will probably give up the sex.

“I have not rejected giving her cocaine (booze, pills, heroin, etc.). What I am saying is that I do not know if this is the correct course of action. At least not yet. If cocaine is important to her, and she is depressed, taking it away from her might make things worse. That is why I want her to see a psychiatrist as the first course of action. If the psychiatrist cannot help her, and it is obvious that she needs her belief in God, I will commit myself to making that happen, and then we will probably give up the cocaine (booze, pills, heroin…)”

How does that sound?

He is putting something that is wrong in her life. Only him. Not her family, her friends or the associates she used to have. But he is arguing with us. And you are supporting him in his argument. Do you want to share his complicity if he drives this girl completely to desperation?

Maybe your personality could have withstood this emotional and spiritual earthquake. But he took a young, innocent, untested girl and bombarded her with his agnostic and irreligious nonsense, then he put the full court press on her to lure her into his bed. (Oh, yes, he did. I don’t care how he dresses it up. He wanted it and he managed to get it.)

He’s played that game with other girls, I’m sure. This one though… he didn’t know that maybe she wasn’t strong enough to take it after he filled her God size hole in her heart with his… well… I’ll just leave it at that. He might term me “abusive.” (Dude, you don’t know abuse!) Now the wheels have come off and he got more than he bargained for. It’s why God’s plan is for young women to bond with a man who truly loves them in a safe atmosphere of legal, spiritual and moral certitude.

And by the way, make no mistake. Mothers aren’t as stupid and clueless as you think they are. Her daughter didn’t have to tell her she was fornicating with this boy for her to know exactly what was going on. A guy who follows no rules in life but the ones HE THINKS or FEELS is good for HIM, is very very very predictable.

First he had to convince the girl that those rules were unnecessary before he could start undressing her. And he tells us how willing she was. In that case, he has no idea how conflicting it is to be eager to please a man you think you love and knowing in the back of your mind what you are doing is wrong. She might have looked eager to him, but the weight of her actions is crushing her spirit.

When you have no God, everything becomes about your emotions, what you feel… it’s a mighty flimsy little bark to cling to in the savage seas of life. Emotions change like the weather. Poor girl when he decides to follow his emotions to the next girl…

 

[Liberanosamalo]

For those who did not click on the link to the birth control she is on in order to be able to fornicate with this boy…

She’s kind of a human guinea pig with this. Norplant was a huge problem in this country. Can’t imagine this one is much better. He’s happily willing to put her at risk of severe long-term medical complications so that he can fornicate with her and not have any responsibility for the outcome. What a guy! Can’t we all feel the LUV!

Judge for yourself whether this is adding to her problems: (It was in the link HE provided)

What does an implant actually do?
From its position under your skin, it releases a steady stream of the female-type hormone etonorgestrol into your bloodstream. The hormone reaches your ovaries, and prevents them from releasing eggs. It also causes some minor anti-conception changes in your womb lining and in your cervix. Therefore, you don’t get pregnant – or at least, the chances of pregnancy are very small indeed.

The implant goes on working for several years (three years in the case of Implanon (etonogestrel)), after which it runs out of hormone. If, at the end of that time, you want to continue with the method, you would need to have the device replaced.

And if at any time you get fed up with the implant – for instance, because of side-effects (see below) – you can have it removed. However, once again you should make sure that the doctor who does the removal has been properly trained for the job. If you’re having trouble finding someone, ring the nearest Family Planning Clinic for advice.

What are the long-term consequences of having hormones released from an implant?
Frankly, we don’t know. Implants just haven’t been around long enough for anybody to find out. Obviously, it is to be hoped that use of them does not lead to any form of cancer. Certainly, at the time of writing there has been no indication of this, but with a hormone product there must always be a chance of a long-term link with breast carcinoma.

Contraceptive implants do of course have side effects (see below). But one good thing is that if you do encounter problems with unwanted effects, you can just have the device taken out – and the side-effects should stop almost immediately. (This is a big contrast with the contraceptive injection – because once a jab is in, there’s nothing anyone can do to get it out.)

What implants are available?
In the UK at the present time, there’s only one – and its name is Implanon (introduced to Britain in 1999 though not to the USA until 2006). More details about this brand in a moment.

However, there used to be another one, called Norplant, which consisted of six matchstick-like rods – and which lasted for five years. It was withdrawn in 2001 (largely because of problems with side effects), and all Norplant rods should really by now have been removed – because they’ve all run out of hormone!

So what is Implanon?
Implanon is about the size of a thin matchstick. It contains a hormone called etonorgestrel. Most users have it inserted under the skin of their left upper arm, not far above the elbow.

The ‘match’ can easily be felt, but it’s not very visible – except to someone who is looking for it. There will be a tiny scar at the point where the device was inserted, but unless something has gone wrong, this shouldn’t be very visible either.

Implanon lasts for three years.

continued:

 

[Liberanosamalo]

How is it put in?
The specially-trained doctor (or nurse) injects a little local anaesthetic into your skin, and then pushes the tiny rod in, using a special needle.

Because of the local anaesthetic, there should be very little pain.

Traditionally, the site of insertion has been in your left upper arm (if you’re right-handed), in a groove between two of your muscles. In October 2008, the manufacturer’s recommendation was changed. The Implanon should now be put in slightly lower – about 8 to 10 cm above your elbow.

Generally, the procedure takes no more than three minutes. If you feel OK, you can go home immediately afterwards.

After the insertion about 3.6 per cent of women, get brusing, swelling, redness or soreness after insertion.

How effective is it?
At least 99 per cent – maybe more like 100 per cent. One recent trial gave a failure rate of less than one tenth of one per cent during the first year of use.

When could I have it done?
Generally, Implanon is inserted during the first five days after the start of your period – mainly to ensure that you’re not pregnant. The device can also be put in soon after childbirth, with the insertion usually being carried out when baby is three to four weeks old.

The device does not interfere with breastfeeding, but it is known that a small amount of hormone passes into the breast milk.

Is there anybody who shouldn’t have an Implanon?
Yes. You shouldn’t have one fitted if you’re experiencing undiagnosed vaginal bleeding, or if you have severe liver disease, or are suffering from thrombosis. A history of certain types of cancer makes Implanon inadvisable.

There are a few other medical conditions (including jaundice and a past history of ‘pregnancy itch’) which may make the doctor or nurse reluctant to put in an Implanon; more details from them.

Also, Implanon has been linked with cysts in the ovary. So if you’ve had an ovarian cyst, this is perhaps not the method for you.

Does Implanon react/interfere with any drugs?
Not to the same extent that the Pill does. For example, you can take antibiotics without lowering the efficiency of the implant.

However, its effectiveness can be reduced by certain pills, notably ones for tuberculosis such as rifampicin (Rifadin) and rifabutin (Mycobutin) and some drugs for epilepsy such as phenytoin (Epanutin), carbamazepine (Tegretol), phenobarbital and primidone (Mysoline).

Most important: the popular herb St John’s wort should not be used by women who have an implant because the herb reduces the efficiency of the contraceptive.
What are the side-effects of Implanon?
There are quite a few, the main one being frequent or prolonged vaginal bleeding – which may affect a fifth of all users. But some women get no periods – and are very pleased about that!

Other possible side-effects include:

headache
spots
weight gain
breast tenderness
dizziness
depression
changes in level of sexual desire (rare).
For a full list, read the product leaflet, or talk to the Family Planning nurse or doctor.

Is it true that an implant can ‘wander’ around a woman’s body?
Occasionally, an Implanon can’t be felt where it’s supposed to be – ie under the skin of the upper arm.
In this event, you’d need an ultrasound scan to find the device. Frequently, the ultrasound reveals that the implant was simply pushed in too deeply during insertion.

 

[Just_Lurking]

Why are we hung up on the sex? Because it’s his hook into her. If he would stop that, she might be able to detach.

I think she wants to have sex, and I am afraid she might take it the wrong way if I try to refuse her. … I do not want her to think I am rejecting her as her lover, because I am afraid she might think she made a mistake in sleeping with me in the sense that she might think I have been taking advantage of her.

It looks like you two actually agree on something! – Stopping the sex will end the relationship.

 

[kage_ar]

Clearly we do not agree on this point, but as I have said: She has been in this mood for about four weeks now. She will be seeing a psychiatrist shortly. I will continue my efforts to mend things with her family, and try to win them over. If the psychiatrist can’t help her, and she needs God in her life, I will do what it takes to make that happen. What I will not do, is act rashly and throw away our relationship as if it doesn’t mean anything. Especially considering how much emotion we have invested in each other. If she is depressed, this is the worst thing to do.

Just so you know, Catholics are to see Catholic therapists - please get a referral from www.catholictherapists.com or Catholic Therapists at your Diocese. Don’t send her to someone ELSE who will rip her faith if you care for her.

 

[flyingfish]

Maybe your personality could have withstood this emotional and spiritual earthquake. But he took a young, innocent, untested girl and bombarded her with his agnostic and irreligious nonsense, then he put the full court press on her to lure her into his bed. (Oh, yes, he did. I don’t care how he dresses it up. He wanted it and he managed to get it.)

As I said in my other response, I had to see a counselor and take antidepressants to get through a difficult time that was largely brought on by conflicting views about faith when I was about that girl’s age.

That girl is a college student, I think it’s very unlikely that she could have made it through her education without encountering atheistic philosophy. If talking to her boyfriend about his philosophical views was all that it took for her to stop believing in God, do you think she would have reacted any differently when she encountered those views in either her courses, in books, or in conversations with her other friends?

If someone deliberately decides to destroy someone’s faith in order to sleep with her, I think that’s a pretty dirty move. What did the OP say that led you to believe that he had those intentions?

I don’t know, maybe I am wrong, but I just don’t see this kind of obsession with sex in normal people. Yes there are some men who will deliberately lie to women or even get them drunk or high in order to sleep with them. But to be honest I don’t think the average person is going to make a plan to destroy someone’s faith to get them into bed.

But the birth control point may have something to it, it can have effects on a person’s mental health. How long has she been on it? Does her depression seem to coincide with it?

 

[kage_ar]

If someone deliberately decides to destroy someone’s faith in order to sleep with her, I think that’s a pretty dirty move. What did the OP say that led you to believe that he had those intentions?

I don’t know, maybe I am wrong, but I just don’t see this kind of obsession with sex in normal people. Yes there are some men who will deliberately lie to women or even get them drunk or high in order to sleep with them. But to be honest I don’t think the average person is going to make a plan to destroy someone’s faith to get them into bed.

It may be the other way around, by having immoral sex with her, she moved into mortal sin, was off from the Grace of God and was more vurnerable to losing Faith.

 

[Monica4316]

Hello, catholics. I hope this is the correct place for this kind of post.

I am not a catholic. In fact, I’m an atheist/agnostic, and personally I’m fine with that, and this has been managable in my relationship with my girlfriend. We have had our discussions and fights over these things, but it has been good.

Lately this have changed. I think I’ve gradually won her over to my way of thinking, but unfortunatly, she has not adopted my positive way of thinking about a life without God. It seems she has lost faith, and not only in God, but in life as well.

In the beginning, I thought it would be good that she lost her faith, but the consequenses have been terrible. I have tried to advance the positives of a life without God, but she isn’t buying it, and I am almost ready to give up on trying to make her adopt a more positive world view.

If I cannot persuade her on this point, I feel that I have destroyed her, and that our relationship will be over. Part of the reason I fell in love with her was because she was full of life. Now it seems that is completely gone, like a needle popping a balloon.

I have been thinking about trying to make her believe again, as this seem to be the only way to fix her. Maybe this is the last chance for our relationship, and maybe the last chance to make her what she used to be. But I have no idea on how to do this. Any advice on this, or some other way to fix things, would be greatly appreciated.

I know you’re asking for advice and probably see lack of faith as a good thing, but I have to ask, do you feel it is at all bad to cause someone to lose their faith? why did you feel your role in the relationship was to bring your girlfriend over to “your way of thinking”? I’m sorry but your post made me angry in a way. I know you’re seeking help but you had no right at all to destroy someone’s faith. When you love someone, you want what’s best FOR THEM, not just for the relationship. It sounds like she’s really unhappy with not having faith and due to this might come to God someday. But if I were you, I’d seriously try to restore her faith in God even if you yourself don’t believe. I know you don’t believe in Christianity, but IF it’s true, causing someone to lose their faith is leading them away from salvation. Is this a risk you’re willing to take? even if you don’t believe. I think if you love your girlfriend you would respect her beliefs. Maybe instead of trying to make her ‘what she used to be’ just so you that you can have your old girlfriend and relationship back, maybe instead of that try to help her because you care FOR HER and her happiness.

Sorry if my post sounds harsh. I’m not intending to be harsh but this is something to think about for the future.

All the best.

 

[Monica4316]

.double post

 

[monicatholic]

still, flying fish, those were no mere discussions or disagreements. note the pressure alluded to in the OPs opening post:

I think I’ve gradually won her over to my way of thinking…In the beginning, I thought it would be good that she lost her faith…

it would be great that she lost her faith. it would be great… that she lost her faith. great that she lost… her faith…

along with her grace
along with her virginity
along with her family

great if she lost.

well, she lost.

 

[flyingfish]

It may be the other way around, by having immoral sex with her, she moved into mortal sin, was off from the Grace of God and was more vurnerable to losing Faith.

Well, first, I don’t think it’s possible to say if she is in mortal sin. State of mind plays a part in that, and she is young and confused.

But I agree, if anyone stops following the faith the belief in the truth of its teachings will weaken. I just don’t think her having sex is the main catalyst for this,

I think it’s the effect not the cause. Don’t you think thinking that God does not even exist is more likely to cause you to abandon the Catholic teaching that sex is wrong, than having sex is to cause you to stop believing in God?

 

[whatevergirl]

*As I read through this thread…it would seem that the relationship has been ‘in the gutter’ long before the OP figured out that it is. That is the real problem. *

 

[monicatholic]

Don’t you think thinking that God does not even exist is more likely to cause you to abandon the Catholic teaching that sex is wrong, than having sex is to cause you to stop believing in God?

no. sin first.

in the garden, first came disobedience. then adam and eve hid from God.

sin came first.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Lately this have changed. I think I’ve gradually won her over to my way of thinking, but unfortunatly, she has not adopted my positive way of thinking about a life without God. It seems she has lost faith, and not only in God, but in life as well.

In the beginning, I thought it would be good that she lost her faith,

His own words, FlyingFish.

We’re not the ones obsessed with sex, by the way. We’re just pointing out that it has damaged her, cutting her off from God’s grace and joy. By your claim, a doctor telling an emphysema patient to cut out the cigarettes would be an obsession with cigarettes you don’t find in normal doctors?

I encountered many atheists, even professors I would spar with in class (who granted that in a battle with Aquinas, Nietzsche would have to concede some of his points.)

They didn’t rock my world view.

Encountering someone like that with his own views, add “love” and “sex” and stir… and some women have talked themselves out of their own feelings to keep a man. How many women turn themselves inside out for a guy once they start sleeping with him? Wear their hair for him, dress for him, give up their friends for him… it’s another cliche. (Why are women so stupid like that is a post for another time). HE said HE thought it would be good if she adopted his libertine world view. In the beginning (before he got her into bed?) getting her unhitched from all those religious hangups… didn’t Billy Joel sing a song about that? (I hate that song.) The fun and pleasure of a life without God is how Persuader probably presented it. How much she talked herself into the “If I want to keep him, I should sleep with him so I don’t lose him” nonsense only she knows.

Now did he set out systematically to A, B, C and have his way with her? Maybe his arts of persuasion weren’t so conscious. Just a pattern of activity that worked with him before. The effect is the same. And once she got into that vicious cycle of life without grace, she can’t get out. She’s talked herself into emptiness, she keeps having sex with Mr. Empty, which perpetuates her depression, which he proposes to cure with more of his magical sex.

She has no frame of reference to point to to know that this too shall pass. He was her first. Do NOT underestimate the power of that.

It all came together in a perfect storm with this girl to totally rupture her relationship with God, her volunteer workers, and her family. And I guess now she only hangs out with his nihilistic friends? Which kind of is a warning thing to me… but…

Her faith isn’t the problem here. It’s like someone being told there are germs out there and be careful. If they are convinced in college by some sweet-talking guy that there is no such thing as germs and she follows along with that and gives in to him and in order to keep that relationship going behaves as if there are no germs and she gets typhus, you can’t tell the people who tell her to stay away from the germs that they are obsessed with germs.

Denying reality doesn’t make it go away. Faith isn’t the problem any more than germs are. Denying the truths behind the faith and living as if they don’t exist is as disastrous to the soul as denying medical truths about germs is to the body.

We’re not obsessed with germs per se. We just keep telling him something he needs to recognize so she can get well.

 

[flyingfish]

still, flying fish, those were no mere discussions or disagreements. note the pressure alluded to in the OPs opening post:

I think I’ve gradually won her over to my way of thinking…In the beginning, I thought it would be good that she lost her faith…

it would be great that she lost her faith. it would be great… that she lost her faith. great that she lost… her faith…

And seeing how it has affected her, he regrets his actions and has come to a Catholic forum to ask for help, has contacted her family, is trying to convince her to see a psychiatrist.

He clearly didn’t understand how severely a person could be impacted by a loss of faith.

along with her family

This one I think is on her family, if they are casting her out because she lost faith, well, that says more about the kind of people they are than the OP or her.