Relationship in the gutter.

[Liberanosamalo]

ANYTHING?

I suggest you find a book entitled “THIS IS THE FAITH” by Canon Ripley.

Start reading it with her chapter by chapter and help her see she did have the truth. Beg forgiveness for undermining it.

 

[prodigalson12]

Google up logical arguments for faith against atheism. If you want to fix the damage, you are going to have to swallow some pride and put your beliefs to the side, and in a sense, give her the ammunition she needs to debate your stance.

There is a quote in the bible specifying woe to those that cause one of the little ones to fall, if you leave her in her present state, you may indeed become a believer of God, and not in a good way at all for you will be facing his wrath directly.

 

[flyingfish]

I have told her that I think she seems unhappy, and that it seems to be connected to her losing her faith. Problem is, she doesn’t believe in God, and she has lost what she calls her relationship with God. She can’t force herself, but I am trying to think of things to say to make her remember how she used to be. What I would like, is some advice of what I could say or do to make her happy again. At this point I think I would consider anything.

First, don’t blame yourself for what happened. You mentioned you’re both young college students, it is common for people to start questioning the beliefs they grew up with at that age. Maybe dating an atheist facilitated this in her, but even if she hadn’t met you she likely would still have been confronted with the atheist view of the world.

It’s very unlikely that a person can be educated at a respectable university and not encounter very different ways of thought. If she hadn’t had those arguments with you, she likely would have had them with a classmate or a friend.

You also don’t know whether she would have been depressed even if she had remained Catholic. It’s not that uncommon for people to struggle when they transition to adulthood and to be bothered by philosophical questions.

As for what you should do, I would say be a good boyfriend or friend.

I don’t know if you can make a person return to a belief system or leave a belief system. It’s a matter of what they believe to be true. The best chance for her to return to Catholicism would be to read books by Catholic theologians. If she doesn’t think she can believe in God anymore, there are plenty of secular people who are happy, who love life. Maybe read some books by those people with her (Carl Sagan comes to mind).

 

[Persuader]

Take her back to her family, apologize profusely for the fact that you broke a girl who was full of life and stay away from her. Don’t be mad at them if they hate you. What she needs to recover from you is something you can’t give. A faith in a loving God. YOU think YOU give and take away her faith like you’ve got the power? You only succeeded in making her doubt everything that may have given her life meaning. Nice.

Evil is the absence of Good. It’s also the absence of God.

Good work, buddy. At least you feel bad about it. I’ll give you that.

You aren’t a very good advertisement for the benefits of a life without God, by the way.

By the way, you do have a God. His name is Persuader. And he’s not a very benevolent or loving God. He destroys people. He messes with their heads. And he doesn’t feel ashamed for doing so.

How about swallowing your overweening pride and sitting down with the shell you created and asking her to pray with you for both of you to see the truth from God and to be open to the Truth. Help walk her back among all the beliefs you shredded and argued into the ground… you know, the ones that made her full of life? Yeah… maybe believing in something besides yourself IS worthwhile! Her only crime was that her faith and ability to defend her beliefs was not on par with your practiced ability to deny God and make her doubt things she believed. Love doesn’t do that to people. You came into her happy little Eden and told her if she listened to you, she wouldn’t need God. Those of us who believe in God already know how tragically that story ends.

I have daughters and your story makes me angry and terrified as a mother. The power someone like you can have over a girl who loves you.

She has been talking with her family. Look, I don’t think you understand how strongly we feel for each other. It will be very hard to just abandon her, and I do not think her family understands. They are livid with me, of course, and she is defending me. She doesn’t like her family very much right now, and I don’t feel right handing her over to them.

I don’t think it is fair for you to say that I destroy people, and mess with their head. I have not actively tried to change her mind. I think it is just something that has happened as a result of hearing my arguments, and seeing their truth reflected in reality.

I am not proud, and if I thought I could convince myself of the power of prayer, and God, I might actually do it for her. But alas, I don’t think so, and she knows it would be a sham. She wouldn’t believe I was sincere.

I don’t think you should be afraid of me. I am not evil. As you can see, I’m willing to compromise myself to help her. I am willing to make sacrifies for her happiness. That is what love is about.

 

[monicatholic]

At this point I think I would consider anything.

anything…, ok.

first, telling her she’s unhappy is NOT the same as telling her you were WRONG.

next, re-read everything Liberanosamalo wrote in the last long post-- about confession, about not sleeping with her, about readjusting beliefs to cotrrespond to behaviors etc.

afraid of walking out of her life and leaving her alone? then stay and be a friend, not her bed partner.

oh. and anything… anything…

PRAY for her, because you were wrong about a lot of things. you’ll be deeply grateful and happy when you finally understand that.

 

[Persuader]

Google up logical arguments for faith against atheism. If you want to fix the damage, you are going to have to swallow some pride and put your beliefs to the side, and in a sense, give her the ammunition she needs to debate your stance.

There is a quote in the bible specifying woe to those that cause one of the little ones to fall, if you leave her in her present state, you may indeed become a believer of God, and not in a good way at all for you will be facing his wrath directly.

She has read those arguments. Look, she is not an idiot. English is my third language, so maybe you got the wrong idea about the intellectual level we’re at. As stated earlier, we are both good university students.

I have already said that I am willing to do almost anything to help her regain her happiness, even turning her towards God again. However, I don’t believe in God, so trying to scare me is stupid. I am willing to help her, but I am doing it for her, not because I’m afraid of consequences to myself.

 

[monicatholic]

seeing their truth reflected in reality.

no Persuader, look right into truth reflected in this reality. THIS is your girl without God. the difference between her godlessness and yours is this:

she’s grieving a profound LOSS of something she once had.
you’ve learned to do the carpe diem dance with your God-shaped hole just gaping.

 

[Persuader]

Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor (see here).

Yes, I am aware of this. I have been trying to get her to see a psychiatrist. It has not been successful as of yet.

 

[Persuader]

Well, there’s something else you’ve done… if you’re sleeping with her and not married to her, you’ve removed the life of Grace from her soul. Your relationship with her is seriously sinful. You’re not paying the price, but she is.

Belief follows behavior (see CS Lewis… you might try reading Mere Christianity). As her behavior with you has gone downhill into sin, she has talked herself out of her beliefs in order that her mind can reconcile her sinful acts with what she believes. Because only a nut can believe one thing and act another way. So in order to sin, we either have to rationalize that our actions are not really sins so they conform to our belief system, or we have to alter our belief system to conform to our actions. Add to that another problem for her: If her job has her seeing the worst that humanity can endure, and the suffering of others, rather than being the light of grace in their lives, she now has none to give. You’ve helped snuff it out in her life.

Some jobs require a greater amount of grace in the soul to endure. Obviously hers is one of them. Being with you, she doesn’t have that help from God. Did you feel a little triumph there when she joined your team and said she didn’t believe in God? Was that what it was all about? Satan had a lot of help from you pushing her over the edge.

What you can do… urge her to go to confession. Stop having sexual relations with her. Convince her to go back to practicing religion. She USED to be evidence that there is a loving God who acted through loving people.

Now not only is she useless to the people she used to help, she’s useless to herself. Lots of people will lose now. Not just you.

Suffering is in the world because of all the people who LIVE AND BEHAVE as if there is no God. How about telling her that and see where THAT conversation goes!

If everyone would live according to God’s laws, there wouldn’t be suffering. There would only be people alleviating the natural problems we face as humans. But to live according to God’s laws, you have to accept there is a God in the first place.

First own up to your own role in perpetuating the suffering in the world before you can fix her suffering.

I don’t know if this is good advice. It seems to me, you just want to make me feel like an evil person. I am not evil. Trying to convince her of that argument for suffering will not work. I can’t see the soundness of it, and neither will she.

I have urged her to go to counseling, and talk with her religious friends, relatives and priest. It isn’t helping. Cutting out the sex, I don’t know about that. The sex is great, and I feel that the sex is maybe the only thing that makes her happy now. As I said, the emotions are very between us. Certainly the strongest I have ever felt for anyone, although I am young and haven’t had that many relationships. I really thought this was the one for me, so I am quite reluctatnt to let her go, and will only do so if I am sure that is what will make her happy. I am willing to do to that because I love her, even if it would probably break my heart.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

First, don’t blame yourself for what happened. You mentioned you’re both young college students, it is common for people to start questioning the beliefs they grew up with at that age. Maybe dating an atheist facilitated this in her, but even if she hadn’t met you she likely would still have been confronted with the atheist view of the world.

She has been talking with her family. Look, I don’t think you understand how strongly we feel for each other. It will be very hard to just abandon her, and I do not think her family understands. They are livid with me, of course, and she is defending me. She doesn’t like her family very much right now, and I don’t feel right handing her over to them.

It is precisely because they are so much in “love” (or what passes for it in such a relationship) that HIS arguments and persuasion have carried more weight in her head than someone in a class she barely knew. This may also be one of her first “real” relationships, which adds to the whole psychological maladjustment going on. And if he’s bonding with her sexually, it’s messing more with her head than if he were just a guy from class.

I think I do have a clue how strongly you two feel for each other, or you wouldn’t have had the power to do this. Her family understands much better than you know. You haven’t been a parent raising a child in the faith. They have twice as much life experience as you do. Believe me, they understand and I understand why they are livid. Of course she’ll defend you! You’re sleeping with her! They aren’t! And oh, in addition to cutting her off from God, you’re also the guy who has set up a problem with her family, from which she also drew emotional strength and support, even if she was too immature to recognize it. So now she is in a big fight with them too over you! You don’t feel RIGHT handing her over to them? How dare you? Who are YOU to think you have any right over her? Do you pay her tuition? Her medical care? Did you give birth to her? Handing her over to them? You really do think you’re God, don’t you? She’s… property???

They loved her more than life itself long before you came along. Unless they were horribly maladjusted parents, but I doubt that because she sounds like she was raised well by loving people to be the kind of person you described. In a few short months you have destroyed that.

I don’t think it is fair for you to say that I destroy people, and mess with their head. I have not actively tried to change her mind. I think it is just something that has happened as a result of hearing my arguments, and seeing their truth reflected in reality.

You didn’t actively try to change her mind? Then why were you trying to explain your own beliefs and challenge her own? Was it an idle parlor game for you? You are young. But it’s time for you to learn that words have power and ideas have consequences. The only “truth your arguments see reflected in reality” is their ability to drive light, truth and joy from the human heart. Words can do that. Ask any victim of verbal abuse. You used words and ideas and imposed your reality on her.

Why am I afraid of you? Because I’m a parent who dreads one of my children meeting with someone like you. And it’s the parents who are left to deal with the wreckage from people like you when you’re finished with the damage and wander off.

Love is about submission and sacrifice and humility. YOU cannot convince yourself of ANYTHING. Only GOD can convince you of something. But that would require you to surrender your pride and be open to HIS voice and shut your own up for once. Otherwise you’ll be a one-man wrecking ball going through people’s lives for the rest of your life leaving a trail of doubt and division behind you.

That is not a legacy of love.

Is that a legacy you’d be proud of? You’re not off to a very good start.

Get a real education while you’re at the university. Start by taking classes from professors who aren’t just telling you what you already think. Find one who challenges your perspective. Take a course in fundamentals of Christian thought. Show your girlfriend you’re open to hearing something else besides the voice in your own head telling you there is no God.

 

[Just_Lurking]

Yes, I am aware of this. I have been trying to get her to see a psychiatrist. It has not been successful as of yet.

Has she taken an online depression inventory, for example, see here? The suddenness of her symptoms indicate a problem that should be dealt with soon, but may also mean that any medication she is placed on would only be temporary until she can better adjust to her new situation.

 

[Persuader]

First, don’t blame yourself for what happened. You mentioned you’re both young college students, it is common for people to start questioning the beliefs they grew up with at that age. Maybe dating an atheist facilitated this in her, but even if she hadn’t met you she likely would still have been confronted with the atheist view of the world.

It’s very unlikely that a person can be educated at a respectable university and not encounter very different ways of thought. If she hadn’t had those arguments with you, she likely would have had them with a classmate or a friend.

You also don’t know whether she would have been depressed even if she had remained Catholic. It’s not that uncommon for people to struggle when they transition to adulthood and to be bothered by philosophical questions.

As for what you should do, I would say be a good boyfriend or friend.

I don’t know if you can make a person return to a belief system or leave a belief system. It’s a matter of what they believe to be true. The best chance for her to return to Catholicism would be to read books by Catholic theologians. If she doesn’t think she can believe in God anymore, there are plenty of secular people who are happy, who love life. Maybe read some books by those people with her (Carl Sagan comes to mind).

Thanks for not condemning me. You are right, it might have happened even if I were out of the picture. I have tried to make her see my motivations for living, but she isn’t buying it. I have not read a book with her, so I could try that. Thanks for the advice!

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Persuader, some people don’t feel the need for the concept of gravity either and so they act accordingly. Splat.

Almost all your statements are based on your emotions, how YOU feel, what YOU think… none of it conforms to objective reality based on 2000 years of other people’s experience. So you’re going to keep sleeping with her because YOU don’t think it’s bad for her and it feels good for YOU?

No wonder her family is livid.

I don’t know if this is good advice. It seems to me, you just want to make me feel like an evil person. I am not evil. Trying to convince her of that argument for suffering will not work. I can’t see the soundness of it, and neither will she.

Again, with your feelings. Is that all you act on? I’m not trying to make you feel like anything. If you stabbed a knife in her chest, and I told you it was wrong, you’d say I was trying to make you feel bad. You in fact did something very similar. By the way, I’ve never seen an evil person who actually thought they were evil. I don’t judge your soul or your character, only your actions. Which lack Truth, Goodness and Beauty.

Problem with your views: It’s all based on what YOU see and what makes you happy and feel good. Except, oops, they don’t make her happy. So now you don’t know what to do about that because to fix her feelings would require you to sacrifice your feelings. And here you say because YOU cannot see the soundness of my argument for suffering, neither will she. Have you begun to do her thinking for her in everything? How do you know that stopping sinning with you might not alleviate her depression? Maybe she feels guilty about it.

You say English is your third language. Did you come from a country where atheism is grounded in everything? Is that your culture?

Because it wasn’t hers till you came along.

You took away something of value in her life and replaced it with nothing of value.

On some level she knows she was cheated, but she’s so in “love” with you she doesn’t understand just what happened.

 

[novaslasher]

It sounds like you are college age. It’s quite common for people to challenge and work out their childhood beliefs at that age. I did so myself and called into question my entire Catholic upbringing. An atheist friend of mine challenged my beliefs in God while on a road trip in college. She wasn’t trying to wreck my faith, but was only talking about her reasons for not believing. I had my faith crumble due to her comments. But this was a weak and childish faith.

It took a long time, but I took the loss of faith as a challenge. I read up on St. Thomas Aquinas, read the Catechism, started listening to Catholic Answers radio, and joined a bible study group. I wanted to give my faith one last chance before giving up. God answered my prayers, and now I am a much stronger Catholic than I ever was. I learned that faith is rational, but is not limited to dry theistic arguments. I don’t think my experience was unique.

This is what she will have to do (in her own way). She may come out of this with a stronger faith or may quietly accept a loss of faith. You are right that this is an existential crisis. You many not be fully complicit in her loss of faith (as my friend was not to blame for the shattering of my weak faith), or you may be culpable. No one on this website can say for sure. But blame is not important right now. Right now, she needs to work this out - and you need to give her space to do this if you really love her. I suggest apologizing for her crisis of faith and asking her for a break in your relationship while she works this out. Stay friends, but stop the sex. This is just muddling things right now.

 

[Persuader]

It is precisely because they are so much in “love” (or what passes for it in such a relationship) that HIS arguments and persuasion have carried more weight in her head than someone in a class she barely knew. This may also be one of her first “real” relationships, which adds to the whole psychological maladjustment going on. And if he’s bonding with her sexually, it’s messing more with her head than if he were just a guy from class.

I think I do have a clue how strongly you two feel for each other, or you wouldn’t have had the power to do this. Her family understands much better than you know. You haven’t been a parent raising a child in the faith. They have twice as much life experience as you do. Believe me, they understand and I understand why they are livid. Of course she’ll defend you! You’re sleeping with her! They aren’t! And oh, in addition to cutting her off from God, you’re also the guy who has set up a problem with her family, from which she also drew emotional strength and support, even if she was too immature to recognize it. So now she is in a big fight with them too over you! You don’t feel RIGHT handing her over to them? How dare you? Who are YOU to think you have any right over her? Do you pay her tuition? Her medical care? Did you give birth to her? Handing her over to them? You really do think you’re God, don’t you? She’s… property???

They loved her more than life itself long before you came along. Unless they were horribly maladjusted parents, but I doubt that because she sounds like she was raised well by loving people to be the kind of person you described. In a few short months you have destroyed that.

You didn’t actively try to change her mind? Then why were you trying to explain your own beliefs and challenge her own? Was it an idle parlor game for you? You are young. But it’s time for you to learn that words have power and ideas have consequences. The only “truth your arguments see reflected in reality” is their ability to drive light, truth and joy from the human heart. Words can do that. Ask any victim of verbal abuse. You used words and ideas and imposed your reality on her.

Why am I afraid of you? Because I’m a parent who dreads one of my children meeting with someone like you. And it’s the parents who are left to deal with the wreckage from people like you when you’re finished with the damage and wander off.

Love is about submission and sacrifice and humility. YOU cannot convince yourself of ANYTHING. Only GOD can convince you of something. But that would require you to surrender your pride and be open to HIS voice and shut your own up for once. Otherwise you’ll be a one-man wrecking ball going through people’s lives for the rest of your life leaving a trail of doubt and division behind you.

That is not a legacy of love.

Is that a legacy you’d be proud of? You’re not off to a very good start.

Get a real education while you’re at the university. Start by taking classes from professors who aren’t just telling you what you already think. Find one who challenges your perspective. Take a course in fundamentals of Christian thought. Show your girlfriend you’re open to hearing something else besides the voice in your own head telling you there is no God.

I didn’t say she was my property, I just said that I was reluctant to leave her with her family, considering she is arguing with them right now. Maybe I could do it later if they calm down a bit, but it would be hard. We have an electric chemistry, really great, and we understand each other very well. I don’t know how she would take it, and I don’t really know how I would. But I would be willing if I knew it was the only way to make her happy again.

She had a good upbringing. Her father is a doctor. Her family is quite religious, and I understand that they are angry with me. I have tried talking with them, convincing them that I only want the best for their daughter. Her mother isn’t buying it at all, but that doesn’t mean she is right. However, I am very sad that she is arguing with her family. I have tried to patch things up between them, but my interference is not welcome by her parents.

I really regret that the view you have taken of me, and I don’t think it is justified. I am not a dangerous or evil person, as you seem to suggest. I have told you, I am willing to make sacrifices, and I am willing to humiliate myself. Pride has nothing to do with me not believing in God, no matter what you think. And I do not think that is something that makes me a wrecking ball.

I admit I have influenced my girlfriend in a way that has made her very unhappy, and made her lose her faith, but I am trying to fix it. What else can I do? I don’t understand what you want me to do! Do you want me to pretend to believe in God? To lie to her as well? I do not believe, and I cannot see any reason for this to change any time soon. I can’t force myself to believe something I do not believe.

 

[Persuader]

Has she taken an online depression inventory, for example, see here? The suddenness of her symptoms indicate a problem that should be dealt with soon, but may also mean that any medication she is placed on would only be temporary until she can better adjust to her new situation.

I don’t know if she has taken a test, but she is displaying a lot of the symptoms for depression. I have urged her to go to a psychatrist. I will insist on it with more vigor. Thanks

 

[Norseman82]

Lately this have changed. I think I’ve gradually won her over to my way of thinking, but unfortunatly, she has not adopted my positive way of thinking about a life without God. It seems she has lost faith, and not only in God, but in life as well.

In the beginning, I thought it would be good that she lost her faith, but the consequenses have been terrible. I have tried to advance the positives of a life without God, but she isn’t buying it, and I am almost ready to give up on trying to make her adopt a more positive world view.

If I cannot persuade her on this point, I feel that I have destroyed her, and that our relationship will be over. Part of the reason I fell in love with her was because she was full of life. Now it seems that is completely gone, like a needle popping a balloon.

You need to start shedding a few tears of your own. That may be the only thing that helps.

 

[Persuader]

Persuader, some people don’t feel the need for the concept of gravity either and so they act accordingly. Splat.

Almost all your statements are based on your emotions, how YOU feel, what YOU think… none of it conforms to objective reality based on 2000 years of other people’s experience. So you’re going to keep sleeping with her because YOU don’t think it’s bad for her and it feels good for YOU?

No wonder her family is livid.

Again, with your feelings. Is that all you act on? I’m not trying to make you feel like anything. If you stabbed a knife in her chest, and I told you it was wrong, you’d say I was trying to make you feel bad. You in fact did something very similar. By the way, I’ve never seen an evil person who actually thought they were evil. I don’t judge your soul or your character, only your actions. Which lack Truth, Goodness and Beauty.

Problem with your views: It’s all based on what YOU see and what makes you happy and feel good. Except, oops, they don’t make her happy. So now you don’t know what to do about that because to fix her feelings would require you to sacrifice your feelings. And here you say because YOU cannot see the soundness of my argument for suffering, neither will she. Have you begun to do her thinking for her in everything? How do you know that stopping sinning with you might not alleviate her depression? Maybe she feels guilty about it.

You say English is your third language. Did you come from a country where atheism is grounded in everything? Is that your culture?

Because it wasn’t hers till you came along.

You took away something of value in her life and replaced it with nothing of value.

On some level she knows she was cheated, but she’s so in “love” with you she doesn’t understand just what happened.

The sex is good for both of us. She is having orgasms, tellings me how much she loves me, and how much she loves making love with me. This is a moment of true happiness for us both, and I don’t know if it would be right to take this away. She might think I am abandoning her, and I would be really sad to give it up, as I am really attracted to her. I would of course be willing to make that sacrifice if it helped.

I appreciate what you are saying about shame, and you might be right about this, although she has not told me she is ashamed. If nothing else works, I would consider cutting out the sex, but I think I should try some other things first, because the sex is really emotional and great between us. It really connects us.

Regarding the arguments, I have actually read up on the problem of evil. I have read Plantinga and the like. I have presented those to her, but she agrees with me that they are not good enough. I doubt she will buy what you have said, if she doesn’t buy what Plantinga says.

I don’t think I am evil. Maybe I made a mistake, but isn’t it human to make mistakes? Am I evil just because of this thing that happened with my girlfriend?

 

[flyingfish]

Thanks for not condemning me. You are right, it might have happened even if I were out of the picture. I have tried to make her see my motivations for living, but she isn’t buying it. I have not read a book with her, so I could try that. Thanks for the advice!

Personally I have always loved science and have read books by many scientists who were also atheists, and their view of the world had always struck me as very positive and awe inspiring. What gives a person meaning really depends on the person. For me, science has always made me feel closer to an understanding of God than anything else. (And it wasn’t particularly important to me about what should be meant by God. )

If she is that kind of person, being exposed to that kind of thinking might help her to regain her love of existence.

Secondly, a person’s happiness and love of life doesn’t necessarily depend on their philosophical point of view. It often depends on much more mundane things like what they eat, how they sleep, whether they exercise, whether they have a good group of friends, whether their relationships with their family is good, whether their job/program of study is interesting, whether they have hobbies they’re excited to participate in.

Sometimes it’s a matter of chemical imbalances. I don’t know how severe her situation is, but hey she might have a mental disorder that needs to be treated with medication and not philosophy.

 

[Persuader]

It sounds like you are college age. It’s quite common for people to challenge and work out their childhood beliefs at that age. I did so myself and called into question my entire Catholic upbringing. An atheist friend of mine challenged my beliefs in God while on a road trip in college. She wasn’t trying to wreck my faith, but was only talking about her reasons for not believing. I had my faith crumble due to her comments. But this was a weak and childish faith.

It took a long time, but I took the loss of faith as a challenge. I read up on St. Thomas Aquinas, read the Catechism, started listening to Catholic Answers radio, and joined a bible study group. I wanted to give my faith one last chance before giving up. God answered my prayers, and now I am a much stronger Catholic than I ever was. I learned that faith is rational, but is not limited to dry theistic arguments. I don’t think my experience was unique.

This is what she will have to do (in her own way). She may come out of this with a stronger faith or may quietly accept a loss of faith. You are right that this is an existential crisis. You many not be fully complicit in her loss of faith (as my friend was not to blame for the shattering of my weak faith), or you may be culpable. No one on this website can say for sure. But blame is not important right now. Right now, she needs to work this out - and you need to give her space to do this if you really love her. I suggest apologizing for her crisis of faith and asking her for a break in your relationship while she works this out. Stay friends, but stop the sex. This is just muddling things right now.

Maybe you are right. I will think about cutting out the sex, and staying friends. But I am a bit afraid she might see it as a rejection, and I do not think rejection is what she needs right now. Also, I think it might be hard to cut out the sex. I could stop initiating it, but it is hard to say no to her. I am willing to try, though, and I will think about doing this. Thanks for the advice.