Relationship in the gutter.

[nicreap]

You seem to be wondering why everyone is starting to treat you with hostility. You came here asking for help. You wanted to know how to help your girlfriend regain her joy and be filled with life once again. You wanted to know how to help her build her faith up once again. As you began revealing details, every one of us saw actions that were pulling her away from God, and keeping her from experiencing his grace and being filled with the joy and happiness she once had. We have told you time and again, if you want her to regain her faith in any way that matters, and is more than just a facade, you have to stop having sex with her. You can’t have her full of faith, life, and happiness and still have sex with her. It goes against her very faith. Yet you keep trying to find ways to give her faith and continue having sex. We as Catholics, which you have acknowledged you aren’t, keep telling you the way to fix it. But you won’t listen. That is why everyone is getting mad at you. You ask us how to fix it, and then the answer means you have to give up something you enjoy, so you try and find other ways around it. It is as simple as this, you can have sex with her and she will never regain the faith and joy she had, because the very act along with contraception is driving her away from the God you want her to find, or you can stop having sex with her, and allow her to seek God’s forgiveness and begin working on rebuilding her faith. You can’t have both, the very nature of her faith and what she believes makes it impossible. Again, the hostility is because you won’t accept that fact, her faith can’t exist in any deep meaningful way as long as she keep having sinful relations with you.

 

[Persuader]

Sorry, you made an error here. When you have sex with her you are not in her eyes, the eyes of a born and raised child of Christ showing you love her. Regardless of whatever physical pleasure she recieves. All you are showing her is that you don’t love her enough to wait, to do what she has been taught was right. Whether openly or not, you have been putting pressure on her to have sex, and she finally went against her teachings and beliefs, to make you happy. And it is making her miserable, True joy and happiness, extend far deeper than mere emotions or moments of euphoria. Her joy is gone, that is apparent in the fact she can’t stand the works of charity that once brought her life. All you show by having sex with her, is that you care more about your pleasure than what she believes. If you love her, make the sacrafice of true love, and stop having sex, stop tearing apart her relationship with God. When she saw God in the world, and he was present in her life, she had a deeper joy than you can ever give her, so help her regain that, and stop keeping her from it

Look, we had been having sex for quite some time before she lost her faith. It was only after she lost her faith, that she seemed to lose her joy of life. So even though sex might have been a factor in losing her faith, I do not think that having sex is what makes her miserable.

However, I am willing to try cutting out the sex, but I think I should try exploring some other avenues first. I thought it was sound advice to get her to see a psychiatrist first, since there might be some mental problem that could be fixed that way.

 

[nicreap]

Why is there such a huge focus on whether they should be having sex or not? This girl is possibly depressed, possibly going through an existential crisis, why is all the focus on sex?

Premarital sex is obviously against Catholic teaching, but why is it the main issue here? Do you think that if they stop having sex her existential issues and possible mental health issues with resolve?

Because, he said she was happy, when she was strong in her faith. No, stopping sex won’t immediately solve the exestential crisis, or mental health issues, but neither will continuing to have sex. The focus has shifted to that, because it is a serious impediment to her relationship with God. Grave sins, severly weaken, if not severe the relationship we have with God. So, for her to truly be able to rebuild her faith, he has to make a stand and stop beeing an occasion of sin, even if it means he has to tell her no. He wanted to know how to help her find her faith again, and we keep pointing out the major impediment to that happening.

 

[Persuader]

I think your approach is good, if she seems depressed and thinks that life has no meaning drastic changes are probably a bad idea.

A person in her situation needs as much stability and security as she can get.

When did all this happen by the way? How long has it been since she felt so depressed? How has this been progressing over time?

Yeah. I think she has been this way for about three-four weeks. In my estimation it began in conjunction with her telling me she was unsure of her belief. I sensed a shift in her mood after that, and it has only gotten worse. She is still managing her obligations, but she is just less interested in doing anything, and less fun. She used to be a lot of fun. Very creative, especially in finding activities for us to do. It was a lot a fun, and very loving. Now, that is all but gone. She seems happy sometimes, mostly when we have sex. Generally her mood is not good.

 

[nicreap]

Look, we had been having sex for quite some time before she lost her faith. It was only after she lost her faith, that she seemed to lose her joy of life. So even though sex might have been a factor in losing her faith, I do not think that having sex is what makes her miserable.

However, I am willing to try cutting out the sex, but I think I should try exploring some other avenues first. I thought it was sound advice to get her to see a psychiatrist first, since there might be some mental problem that could be fixed that way.

Yes, if she has some mental problem then a psychiatrist can help with that. But he can’t help her regain her faith. You may not believe it, but we do, and true deep joy stems from God and following his will. Giving her medication, or seeing a psychiatrist won’t give her that deep joy back.

The amount of time you were having sex has nothing to do with it’s effect on her relationship with God, which is what her faith is based on. If her faith was as strong as you say it was, then during that time she was probablly struggling interiorly to try and justify it in the eyes of her faith. I would guess, that it slowly eroded her faith, until there was no way she could justify what she was doing with you and what her faith taught her. So, she convinced herslf there is no God, there is no punishment for sleeping with you. AND that her life means nothing, that regardless of what she does or how she lives, it all ends when she dies. That right there is why she sees no joy in life. Without her faith, and the promise of salvation, this life is an empty meaningless existance to her. She lost everything she had to live for and strive for, when she lost her faith. We keep pointing out the apparent reasons, from what you have told us. Is there more to it than just the contraception and sex? probablly, but those are to very big reasons for a persons faith to crumble.

 

[Persuader]

You seem to be wondering why everyone is starting to treat you with hostility. You came here asking for help. You wanted to know how to help your girlfriend regain her joy and be filled with life once again. You wanted to know how to help her build her faith up once again. As you began revealing details, every one of us saw actions that were pulling her away from God, and keeping her from experiencing his grace and being filled with the joy and happiness she once had. We have told you time and again, if you want her to regain her faith in any way that matters, and is more than just a facade, you have to stop having sex with her. You can’t have her full of faith, life, and happiness and still have sex with her. It goes against her very faith. Yet you keep trying to find ways to give her faith and continue having sex. We as Catholics, which you have acknowledged you aren’t, keep telling you the way to fix it. But you won’t listen. That is why everyone is getting mad at you. You ask us how to fix it, and then the answer means you have to give up something you enjoy, so you try and find other ways around it. It is as simple as this, you can have sex with her and she will never regain the faith and joy she had, because the very act along with contraception is driving her away from the God you want her to find, or you can stop having sex with her, and allow her to seek God’s forgiveness and begin working on rebuilding her faith. You can’t have both, the very nature of her faith and what she believes makes it impossible. Again, the hostility is because you won’t accept that fact, her faith can’t exist in any deep meaningful way as long as she keep having sinful relations with you.

What is the problem of trying some other things before I cut out the sex? Maybe it is even a risk to cut the sex as the first thing I do, as she might not be entirely stable. Although I do not think it has come to that yet, why not try a psychiatrist first? Just to be sure there is not something serious.

 

[flyingfish]

Yeah. I think she has been this way for about three-four weeks. In my estimation it began in conjunction with her telling me she was unsure of her belief. I sensed a shift in her mood after that, and it has only gotten worse. She is still managing her obligations, but she is just less interested in doing anything, and less fun. She used to be a lot of fun. Very creative, especially in finding activities for us to do. It was a lot a fun, and very loving. Now, that is all but gone. She seems happy sometimes, mostly when we have sex. Generally her mood is not good.

Maybe it’s not the time for you to worry yet. I had the impression that it was going on for much longer than that. 3-4 weeks is a very short time all things considered, especially since she is going through a lot of changes in her life. It will take time for her to adjust to life again.

Have you been taking over in being creative at finding things for you to do?

 

[Persuader]

Maybe it’s not the time for you to worry yet. I had the impression that it was going on for much longer than that. 3-4 weeks is a very short time all things considered, especially since she is going through a lot of changes in her life. It will take time for her to adjust to life again.

Have you been taking over in being creative at finding things for you to do?

Yes, I have been trying to cheer her up, but she is for the most part uninterested. The only way I feel we connect at this point, is through sex. She kind of shuts down of a lot when I try to speak with her.

If you don’t mind me asking, are you a catholic?

 

[nicreap]

What is the problem of trying some other things before I cut out the sex? Maybe it is even a risk to cut the sex as the first thing I do, as she might not be entirely stable. Although I do not think it has come to that yet, why not try a psychiatrist first? Just to be sure there is not something serious.

Because, you keep trying to rationalize ways to keep having sex with her, when it is severely detrimental to her faith, whether she tells you it or not. Over the past 2000 years, men far smarter than you or I and far more enlightened in the faith, than most, if not all people on this site. Have come to the same conclusion, and premarital sex is detrimental to a relationship with God. You said her joy left when she lost her faith, but you want to try and fix her with a psychiatrist. You need to encourage her to go to confession and seek the advice and guidance of a priest, encourage her to see a psychiatrist as well if you think that is necessary. But you need to encourage her to see a priest. But you seem to be trying to avoid that, itwould seem because you know what the priest is going to tell her. stop having sex with you, and you are only willing to give that up as the very last resort it seems, only leaving her is farther down on that list.

You say you want what is best for her, than do this, take her to a Catholic church and have her meet with and talk to a priest. We’re not saying you can’t take her to a psychiatrist, but trying to bring back the joy she lost with her faith, with a psychiatrist, is like taking a horse to a mechanic to get fixed.

 

[flyingfish]

Yes, I have been trying to cheer her up, but she is for the most part uninterested. The only way I feel we connect at this point, is through sex. She kind of shuts down of a lot when I try to speak with her.

Keep trying, keep finding things to do. Be patient with her and give her time. Maybe don’t talk about atheism or religion, but take her places you think she would enjoy going. You said she used to volunteer for a charity, maybe go there with her. Does she like academic stuff, maybe take her to a lecture on something that interests her, take her to one of those laser gun places, movies, dancing, go camping with her, think of more stuff.

It will probably help her a lot to be active (even if you have to push her a bit) since it will take her mind off the existential stuff that’s bothering her.

If you don’t mind me asking, are you a catholic?

I am no where near as conservative as most posters on this forum, so my view on some situations tends to be pretty different!

 

[Persuader]

Because, you keep trying to rationalize ways to keep having sex with her, when it is severely detrimental to her faith, whether she tells you it or not. Over the past 2000 years, men far smarter than you or I and far more enlightened in the faith, than most, if not all people on this site. Have come to the same conclusion, and premarital sex is detrimental to a relationship with God. You said her joy left when she lost her faith, but you want to try and fix her with a psychiatrist. You need to encourage her to go to confession and seek the advice and guidance of a priest, encourage her to see a psychiatrist as well if you think that is necessary. But you need to encourage her to see a priest. But you seem to be trying to avoid that, itwould seem because you know what the priest is going to tell her. stop having sex with you, and you are only willing to give that up as the very last resort it seems, only leaving her is farther down on that list.

You say you want what is best for her, than do this, take her to a Catholic church and have her meet with and talk to a priest. We’re not saying you can’t take her to a psychiatrist, but trying to bring back the joy she lost with her faith, with a psychiatrist, is like taking a horse to a mechanic to get fixed.

Look, I have already said that I urged her to talk to her priest. I have done that already. But she is saying that she doesn’t believe it anymore. She says that her feeling of God, or her relationship with God, is gone.

I hear you on the sex, and I will try to explain to her why we should stop that for a while. But I will wait until she has been to see a psychiatrist, just to be sure she can handle it. I don’t know if I want to marry her, and I don’t know how long I could wait without any sex before I would really struggle. She is a great temptation, and difficult to resist. Could we do stuff not involing penetration? Would stuff like that be OK?

 

[Persuader]

Keep trying, keep finding things to do. Be patient with her and give her time. Maybe don’t talk about atheism or religion, but take her places you think she would enjoy going. You said she used to volunteer for a charity, maybe go there with her. Does she like academic stuff, maybe take her to a lecture on something that interests her, take her to one of those laser gun places, movies, dancing, go camping with her, think of more stuff.

It will probably help her a lot to be active (even if you have to push her a bit) since it will take her mind off the existential stuff that’s bothering her.

I am no where near as conservative as most posters on this forum, so my view on some situations tends to be pretty different!

Sound like good advice. I will try to be even more inventive when figuring out things we can do. Thanks, I really appreciate it

 

[Persuader]

In spite of a lot of “hate”, thanks for all the advice, it has been really helpful. I will try a few things now, and see where it goes. Maybe I might need some more advice later on, I hope you will be forthcoming then also

 

[nicreap]

Look, I have already said that I urged her to talk to her priest. I have done that already. But she is saying that she doesn’t believe it anymore. She says that her feeling of God, or her relationship with God, is gone.

I hear you on the sex, and I will try to explain to her why we should stop that for a while. But I will wait until she has been to see a psychiatrist, just to be sure she can handle it. I don’t know if I want to marry her, and I don’t know how long I could wait without any sex before I would really struggle. She is a great temptation, and difficult to resist. Could we do stuff not involing penetration? Would stuff like that be OK?

Keep pushing her to see one, her sin has eroded her relationship with God, then you should set an appointment up with a priest for her, take her to see him without telling her where you are going. The way she is going to feel that relationship again, is going to require her to make a confession, and to make a promise to try and avoid sin.

Wait! you don’t know if you want to marry her, and you are having sex with her. Not that it is good in the first place, but it really does sound like you are using her for the sex. You realize you have taken something from her that was meant for only her husband? She can’t regain that, and she will have to carry around that knowledge and so will whomever she marries. If you don’t even know you want to marry her, than it seems hard to believe that you love her as much as you claim, and if you do love her as much as you claim, you should be able to have a chaste relationship with her, because that means you relationship has much more substance than just good sex.

Sorry, according to the Catholic beliefs you shouldn’t even be sleeping in the same bed. So, no,other stuff not involving penetration is also wrong. If it involves either of your genitals, or anything underwear would cover, it’s wrong. That includes masturbating, whether together or alone. Honestly, since you’re an atheist I can’t give you much advice on resisting the temptation, you can try searching through the forms for discussion on the topic, but I’m not sure how much help it will be since you aren’t Catholic. But your love for her and your desire for what is best for her, should be a pretty strong motivation for resisting.

 

[Earnest_Bunbury]

Persuader, you should study the ideals and truth of the Catholic faith to see how sin can destroy a person. You are the one here looking for answers and obviously God has used this for your journey to Him. Loving God above all else applies to you too.

 

[Persuader]

Keep pushing her to see one, her sin has eroded her relationship with God, then you should set an appointment up with a priest for her, take her to see him without telling her where you are going. The way she is going to feel that relationship again, is going to require her to make a confession, and to make a promise to try and avoid sin.

Wait! you don’t know if you want to marry her, and you are having sex with her. Not that it is good in the first place, but it really does sound like you are using her for the sex. You realize you have taken something from her that was meant for only her husband? She can’t regain that, and she will have to carry around that knowledge and so will whomever she marries. If you don’t even know you want to marry her, than it seems hard to believe that you love her as much as you claim, and if you do love her as much as you claim, you should be able to have a chaste relationship with her, because that means you relationship has much more substance than just good sex.

Sorry, according to the Catholic beliefs you shouldn’t even be sleeping in the same bed. So, no,other stuff not involving penetration is also wrong. If it involves either of your genitals, or anything underwear would cover, it’s wrong. That includes masturbating, whether together or alone. Honestly, since you’re an atheist I can’t give you much advice on resisting the temptation, you can try searching through the forms for discussion on the topic, but I’m not sure how much help it will be since you aren’t Catholic. But your love for her and your desire for what is best for her, should be a pretty strong motivation for resisting.

Her priest doesn’t like me, understandably. I could try to make an appointment for her, but I don’t how she would feel if I sent behind her back like that. I have already urged her to see her priest.

We are young, and I didn’t plan on getting married before I was around 30. I don’t know if I am mature enough to know what I really want. I really love her, though. If I didn’t, I would dump her after making sure she was alright. I am not ruling out getting married, but I think we should at least wait till we are finished with our studies, and have a proper job. That will probably take years. I am used to having sex. I was sexually active before I started dating her. Putting everything on hold for several years, it will be very hard. And I don’t understand it. I understand that the faith tells it like that, but I just don’t understand how it will hurt us to show our love to each other in the most intimate way.

Maybe I could do it. We will see what happens. I am not even sure she will find her faith again, so this might never materialize into an actual issue.

 

[Kindness]

Persuader, my perspective is somewhat different as I converted to Catholicism from atheism at the age of 19. I am currently married to a Catholic and we have 3 young children.

I can see both points of view in this thread. As an atheist in the modern world which is the dominant world view and basically goes unquestioned the vast majority of the time you have the mindset I had.

From what I read you consider yourself intelligent, educated, mature and capable of a loving relationship. Sexual activity “before marriage” is not even something that has ever even been an issue I would imagine. For most people the marriage part is irrelevant, that is seen as a commitment separate from sex. Sex is something you do because it’s normal, healthy and desirable. You also seem to express the opinion that you see your sexual relationship as the normal extension and progression of your emotional relationship. You also express the sentiment that because you got to know your girlfriend and fell in love that this gives your sexual relationship more meaning and has a certain moral dimension. Everything that you are doing for most people in most modern societies would be considered unquestioningly normal and shrug no big deal. It’s how most people form relationships and it’s how most young people conduct their relationships. In the 80s when I was a teen/into my early 20s it was exactly the same. It is a mystery to you how anyone could jump in with words like “evil” and “sin” for ordinary behavior that if anything is considered healthy and mature and boringly ordinary.

Well firstly from the outset it’s important to understand that a Catholic worldview is radically countercultural to a modern secular society. A believing Catholic has a view of relationships and sexuality that is dramatically different from the norm. For Catholics the human person is sacred. Every human being, Catholic, Christian or not is sacred. In scripture the human body is called “the temple of the holy spirit”. We believe that God’s love, the Holy Spirit dwells in us and acts in us and therefore the whole human being in every part of their person is holy. In classic Catholic theology there is no division between the mind, body and spirit - we are one. Catholics respect the power of sex. Everyone knows sex feels great, we believe God designed it that way. But because we are embodied our actions of our bodies are never separate from our mind and spirit. Therefore whether acknowledged or not sexual behavior affects our mind and spirit. It has to, it can be no other way. Without getting too deep into Catholic theology the reason we believe that we should wait until we are in a sacramental union with the person we have sex with is because it will change us and do something dramatic to our minds and spirits, something that brings eternal life into the world in the form of a child.

Catholics are very earthy, the material world is not disgusting to us it is not something to “rise above” spiritually. That makes no sense as we are part of the material world ourselves. Instead we sanctify the world around us.

From what you say your girlfriend had a faith that was real and assumed as part of her life since childhood, but for whatever reason it had not reached a mature stage and she did not understand the repercussions of her actions anymore than you did. If she was as fatally attracted to you as you describe but with a mature faith she probably would have stayed a long way away. Now by having sex her mind and spirit have changed. It should be a giving of yourself forever without holding back, but instead she is trying to reconcile herself with the idea that it is just an “expression” of her love for you. An expression that must not produce a child - as it would naturally do. Children are seen in this context not as a beautiful gift from God but an inconvienience that ruins your life.

You may not see it, you may still see no logic to it (and neither may she) but your sexual relationship has taken her to a deeper part of herself and she is having to deny that she wanted something permanent, something eternal in the form of a relationship that is forever and an eternal soul in the form of a child. She may not even know any of this in the head part that knows theology but in her whole self bodily she is conflicted and miserable.

She is trying to reconcile a dominant world view that says “have sex with your boyfriend if you love him and take contraceptives” to a Catholic worldview that says “you are a precious, beautiful child of God who needs a love that is forever for your body as well as your mind and spirit.”

 

[nicreap]

That is very well worded kindness. Persuader, I would really read over what kindness said, and try and understand that. They have given a very well worded insight into the situation. Maybe, it will even help you understand better.

 

[Persuader]

Persuader, my perspective is somewhat different as I converted to Catholicism from atheism at the age of 19. I am currently married to a Catholic and we have 3 young children.

I can see both points of view in this thread. As an atheist in the modern world which is the dominant world view and basically goes unquestioned the vast majority of the time you have the mindset I had.

From what I read you consider yourself intelligent, educated, mature and capable of a loving relationship. Sexual activity “before marriage” is not even something that has ever even been an issue I would imagine. For most people the marriage part is irrelevant, that is seen as a commitment separate from sex. Sex is something you do because it’s normal, healthy and desirable. You also seem to express the opinion that you see your sexual relationship as the normal extension and progression of your emotional relationship. You also express the sentiment that because you got to know your girlfriend and fell in love that this gives your sexual relationship more meaning and has a certain moral dimension. Everything that you are doing for most people in most modern societies would be considered unquestioningly normal and shrug no big deal. It’s how most people form relationships and it’s how most young people conduct their relationships. In the 80s when I was a teen/into my early 20s it was exactly the same. It is a mystery to you how anyone could jump in with words like “evil” and “sin” for ordinary behavior that if anything is considered healthy and mature and boringly ordinary.

Well firstly from the outset it’s important to understand that a Catholic worldview is radically countercultural to a modern secular society. A believing Catholic has a view of relationships and sexuality that is dramatically different from the norm. For Catholics the human person is sacred. Every human being, Catholic, Christian or not is sacred. In scripture the human body is called “the temple of the holy spirit”. We believe that God’s love, the Holy Spirit dwells in us and acts in us and therefore the whole human being in every part of their person is holy. In classic Catholic theology there is no division between the mind, body and spirit - we are one. Catholics respect the power of sex. Everyone knows sex feels great, we believe God designed it that way. But because we are embodied our actions of our bodies are never separate from our mind and spirit. Therefore whether acknowledged or not sexual behavior affects our mind and spirit. It has to, it can be no other way. Without getting too deep into Catholic theology the reason we believe that we should wait until we are in a sacramental union with the person we have sex with is because it will change us and do something dramatic to our minds and spirits, something that brings eternal life into the world in the form of a child.

Catholics are very earthy, the material world is not disgusting to us it is not something to “rise above” spiritually. That makes no sense as we are part of the material world ourselves. Instead we sanctify the world around us.

From what you say your girlfriend had a faith that was real and assumed as part of her life since childhood, but for whatever reason it had not reached a mature stage and she did not understand the repercussions of her actions anymore than you did. If she was as fatally attracted to you as you describe but with a mature faith she probably would have stayed a long way away. Now by having sex her mind and spirit have changed. It should be a giving of yourself forever without holding back, but instead she is trying to reconcile herself with the idea that it is just an “expression” of her love for you. An expression that must not produce a child - as it would naturally do. Children are seen in this context not as a beautiful gift from God but an inconvienience that ruins your life.

You may not see it, you may still see no logic to it (and neither may she) but your sexual relationship has taken her to a deeper part of herself and she is having to deny that she wanted something permanent, something eternal in the form of a relationship that is forever and an eternal soul in the form of a child. She may not even know any of this in the head part that knows theology but in her whole self bodily she is conflicted and miserable.

She is trying to reconcile a dominant world view that says “have sex with your boyfriend if you love him and take contraceptives” to a Catholic worldview that says “you are a precious, beautiful child of God who needs a love that is forever for your body as well as your mind and spirit.”

You are right, I don’t understand all of it, but that doesn’t matter. I understand how she could be conflicted in this way even though I do not understand why the catholic view is the way it is.

Thank you. Maybe you are right about her. I will try to ask her if this is the way she feels. As I have tried to say many times now, I only want the best for her. That is why it makes me a little sad to read the hate. Not from you, but from other posters. I think it really shows how we are all humans reacting with our prejudices.

 

[Janechantal53]

Persuader, Your girlfriend needs some counseling. I could speculate about what caused the personality change but that would be meaningless. It seems that you feel responsible and even though I am tempted to agree with you, in all honesty I can’t. I really don’t believe that you have that kind of power. If you really care for her you will see to it that she gets the help she needs. In the future you may want to think twice about trying to derail someone’s faith. It’s not a game. Hopefully this will be a life lesson learned.