Relationship in the gutter.

[newbetx]

Persuader,
You had posted the following link:

scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=this-is-your-brain-on-love-lasting-2009-01-06

I read through it and found it consistent with the other information I’ve found with other resources (referenced in previous posts).

I think the thing that it points out is that even though these people that are “still in love” aren’t having sex, their bodies response to seeing a picture (and I’m sure the actual person would get the same response) is similar to sexual stimulus. I think this would be consistant with what pretty much everyone knows to be true. Seeing, recalling a loved one brings back the same feelings one associates with the person. And this is why the Church teaches that sex is important in a marriage.

“In love,” and “feelings of passion” here are equated. I think the concept is a good one except it’s not the same for all people.

Why was it you posted this link? Was it something particular in the article or as a reference to why you think your gf might be a suitable partner for you?

 

[newbetx]

From Persuader’s previous post:
My comments

Now, you have also questioned my view of sex. Ok, this is a complex issue. More complex than most people realize. It is the reason that TOB can’t be taught in short segments and why it’s not part of a weekly Mass homily which is why most Catholics have never heard about it. The basis of TOB was 20 min weekly talks over the course of 5 years. So the basis is quite complicated.

Is it true that I see sex as commitment? No, not necessarily. Sex, in general, doesn’t imply commitment in a relationship. As I have said, I have had friends with benefits, and I think this is fine as long as you are not in a committed relationship. I am not saying an arrangement like that isn’t without its problems, but given the right type of people it can be a good arrangement.
Well, it can be fun for a while but uncommitted relationships will dissolve because of their nature. “friends with benefits” sounds very familiar.

As far as my relationship with my gf goes - we are in a committed relationship. It is important to notice that sex is different in a committed relationship.
“Committed” to what? Do you just mean monogamous? There is a big difference. Similar difference to “going steady” and “engaged to be married.” Please define “committed” in your reference here.

I can enjoy sex with women without loving them, That goes without saying.

but being in love makes it better, and changes the meaning of sex by reinforcing and increasing our commitment, love and attachment.
Correct. The intent and mechanics (hormonal) of sex. (and you didn’t think you would understand this stuff. It’s as obvious to you as it is to me.

This was actually a problem in a previous relationship. Because I was in love, I was fooled into thinking the sex was generally good, so when I fell out of love, I realized she wasn’t very good in bed.
Typical cycle of a sex based relationship. Being good in bed, I’m afraid doesn’t guarantee a successful relationship. BTDT. Sex is generally good, BTW. Some is just different and may be more to your liking or more exciting… but the basic premise is that sex is always good.

So going forward, every “great thing” about sex with a given person you discover, you will look for in the next and the next and the next… Eventually, you will desire all the “good stuff” in your partner and as you continue to look for a relationship, you will have these performance expectations as a “starting point.” I would suggest that this is not the proper way to find a permanent mate.

When you “require” something so trivial to sustain the relationship, you set yourself up for failure and you partner is doomed from the start. Yes. I can question your view of sex. I had the same misconception (pun intended) as you when I was living as you do.

As a simplistic view of why sex should be reserved for marriage which might make some sense without involving God in the equation is that if neither partner has experience, neither has particular expectations that they bring to the bed. They discover how each other works and strive to obtain what works best for them. Sex is then deeply personal rather than comparative. Would you like to be compared to your partner’s previous boyfriends? When people with multiple partner pasts get together, that is what happens. Even if the person doesn’t say anything, the temptation, at least is there. Do you see where this might be a problem? Do you see the advantage a couple might have in leaving the expectations of past relations out of the equation?

However, I do not think this will happen in my current relationship. I have more experience now, and I think I am able to notice the difference.

It’s a wonderful difference isn’t it? I’ve often heard you should marry your best friend. This gives a “good example” of “friends with benefits.” And likely, better results than you have experienced.

I’m hoping you are getting the idea that what we feel isn’t bad but what we do, can be. It can lead us to make poor decisions. Like we shouldn’t be drunk when making big decisions. We need the clarity to go down the path of life long partner selection. To go into a relationship assuming if things don’t continue to grow in love the way we want them, we’ll just toss it overboard and start again, is to doom it from the start. Going in, if divorce is an option, it will be exercised.

And lastly, chastity prior to marriage would solve a great deal of world issues. Think about it. AIDS and STDs would not be an issue. And the solution is free! You need not think that only those religious nuts need to follow the rules. It’s easy to see if everyone followed the rules, there would be fewer issues the world has to deal with.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

Well, my prescription for “fixing” your gf would be this: you two should be willing and able to become totally chaste, totally abstinent, and your gf should urgently return to practicing her faith as the Church prescribes it. She should start it with the sacraments of penance and the Eucharist (confession of sins to a priest and holy communion), and continue with attending Holy Mass on Sundays, regular prayer, and learning why the Church teaches all that she teaches.

Look, sin is a path to self-destruction, and your gf probably feels terrified, and her soul suffers, even if she cannot articulate why she feels so bad.

I take it that she is a baptized Christian who used to practice her faith and partake in the sacraments of the Church, before she fell away.

How about you, Persuader? Have you ever been baptized?

And, since breaking the back of sexual sin is not easy, you two may need to totally break off your relationship, if that’s what it takes to re-conquer chastity again…

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

I have read the best arguments, and I know she has done so too. I friend of the family is a philosopher, and I have discussed this with him at length. Although philosophy is not my academic field, I am well versed in some parts of it, and I have taken classes in logic as well as an ethics class.

We will both continue exploring this, of course. I am not saying I know everything, or have all the answers. I am only saying that I do not see a change for myself on this issue.

Persuader, I also see that your gf said several times, “she does not feel God”. But you really don’t need to feel God. I have never “seen” or “felt” a whale in my life, and I still believe that whales exist.

I mean, are you both some sort of materialists now, doubting or rejecting the possibility that non-material things exist? By non-material I mean things such as the existence of spiritual beings, namely God, the angels, and the fallen angels (demons, devils), and the fact that God created us humans with material bodies PLUS non-material souls. Accordingly each human being has a body which is made of matter, and a soul which is not of material nature.

One of the easy ways to prove that non-material things exist is to look at all those supernatural or miraculous events that have been documented during history. From there, it’s just an easy step to wrap your mind around the existence of God.

Here are a few historically documented supernatural or miraculous events:

1. Jesus walked on the water, calmed the storm, raised his dead friend Lazarus whose body already had smelled from decomposition, he miraculously cured many deaf, blind, crippled people, lepers, and finally, he himself was raised from death after he had been crucified. All this has been duly documented by the writers of the Gospels. The Gospels are historically accurate, documentary material. There are four Gospels, written by the following people: the Gospels of Matthew and John were written by two companions (“apostles”) of Jesus, and they qualify as eyewitness testimonies. The Gospel of Mark - Mark was a companion of Peter, and Peter was a companion (apostle) of Jesus. Essentially, the Gospel of Mark is based on Peter’s eyewitness testimony, this is beyond doubt. In addition, there is some indication that Mark himself knew Jesus and possibly have seen some of his miracles. The fourth Gospel, that of Luke - Luke was not an eyewitness himself to Jesus’ miracles and his resurrection from the death, but Luke was a careful historian and he essentially recorded the first-hand accounts of many eyewitnesses.

Now, if the 2000 years that elapsed since Jesus walked on earth and performed his miracles bother you (although I suppose you don’t doubt by the same token the validity or reliability of other historical accounts regarding, e.g., the lives of Julius Caesar or Alexander the Great), you folks could go to your nearest Catholic bookstore and pick up some resource material about the following supernatural and miraculous topics:

1. The life and miracles of Padre Pio (Saint Pio), who lived in Italy during the 19-20th century and passed away in 1968.
2. Holy Mary’s appearance in Fatima, Portugal, in 1917, and the miracles witnessed by an estimated 70,000 people.
3. Holy Mary’s appearance in Lourdes, France, in 1858, to St. Bernadette Soubiros, and the many medically documented miraculous healings that happened in Lourdes during the past 151 years following her appearance.

You may even want to go to a pilgrimage to Fatima and Lourdes, and check it all out for yourselves - the miracles that happened there are well documented. If you go on such pilgrimage, make sure that the organizers will also take you to Nevers, France, where you can see the miraculously preserved body of St. Bernadette Soubiros, the visionary of Lourdes to whom Mary appeared. St. Bernadette has been dead for some 130 years, and yet her body never decomposed. That’s a miracle. Here are some links about St. Bernadette:

home.comcast.net/~jrichardocds/STBERN.gif
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=136271
catholicpilgrims.com/lourdes/ba_bernadette_intro.htm

You might as well check out:

1. St. Catherine Laboure, to whom Holy Mary appeared in 1830 in Paris, in the chapel of the Rue de Bac.

And if you go on your pilgrimage, don’t forget to visit Rue de Bac in Paris, where the incorrupt body of St. Catherine Laboure is displayed in a glass reliquary, see below:

amm.org/images/catherin.jpg

So, if you folks are of the materialist type who don’t believe in miracles, in supernatural events, I have a solution that will cure you. Go on a pilgrimage to Fatima (Portugal), Lourdes (France), the Chapel on the Rue de Bac (Paris), and eventually also to San Giovanni Rotondo in Italy, where Padre Pio is buried. But even before you go, start doing some homework and pick up some books from a Catholic bookstore or from your gf’s priest.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

Persuader, sorry for the triple post, but I’m on page 20 of the thread, and feel like chiming in again. I found the place where you say you don’t believe in afterlife. I guess you are an agnostic who has been influenced by materialism in the philosophical sense. You need to cure yourself from that mistake, if that is indeed the case.

You should learn more about miracles. Do you know that Catholic saints regularly levitated during prayer - St. Francis of Assisi, St. Theresa of Avila, St. Joseph Cupertino and others? There’s no materialistic-scientific explanation for that. None. Do you know that Padre Pio, in the 20th century, miraculously cured a young woman who was born and raised blind, just by praying over her? She started to see, just like that. Do you know that in the Catholic Church, there’s an official process of inquiry (=process of canonization) before someone is declared a saint, and there should always be documented miracles before someone is canonized? I used to live in New Orleans for several years, and a 19th century priest from New Orleans, Father Xavier Seelos, is on the verge of being officially canonized (declared a saint by the Church). One of the miracles that led to his beatification (first step in the process) was this: a local woman from New Orleans had metastatic liver cancer in the 1960s, and the doctors agreed she had only days to live. She prayed for Fr. Seelos’ intercession, and was miraculously cured. She lived almost 40 years after that, she passed away around 2000. A more recent miracle occured some 2 or 3 years ago, when a young wife and mother who had relapsed breast cancer with metastases to the bones, was suddenly cured after she and her husband visited New Orleans where they prayed for Fr. Seelos’ intercession in the church where Fr. Seelos used to be priest. Both cases are documented from a medical standpoint, and both defy natural, materialistic explanations. I appreciate these cases even more since I work in cancer research.

And these are just random examples that came to my mind. As I said, every single canonization in the Catholic Church has the pre-requisite of documented miracles of intercession by the saint. Those miracles prove that the saint is in heaven with God, and he can intercede for us if we ask his/her help in prayer.

I have been agnostic at your age, and did some things with girls that I came to regret later. I wasn’t sure whether God existed at all, and I decided to ignore all that the Catholic Church taught me about God and his commandments, especially regarding our duty to stay chaste and abstain from any form of sexual relations before marriage. Today I feel rather embarrassed that I was so superficial. The way I see it today, being agnostic is something like being un-educated and possibly lacking the motivation to search out the truth. Being atheist is even worse, that’s being un-educated and also being a stubborn, proud fool on top of that. The agnostic says “I don’t know”. Well, if you don’t know, go educate yourself, and quit being an agnostic.

Or else just admit that there is plenty of proof for the existence of God, but you reject him and his commandments, because you don’t want to quit sinning.

 

[Angel7]

As I said, I didn’t try to fix anything, and I didn’t feel a need to fix her. We both accepted that we didn’t agree on religion. It was love at first sight, and very strong. Of course we did debate this, but I didn’t pester her. I didn’t actively try to change her mind, I think it was just a result of her inability to answer my arguments in a way that satisfied her.

The reason I feel the need to fix her now, is because she seems lost and depressed. I hate seeing her like this - it feels like I’m losing her, and that she has lost her will to live. Maybe it is not any hope for our relationship, but I hope there is a way to make her the way she used to be. You say I probably cannot do this. Do you think I should just leave her in the state she is in? Leave her lost and depressed? I think I would have a hard time doing that. Isn’t it anything I can try here?

I think the best way to fix this is for you to help her, and yourself, find your way back to God. If you seperate yourself from your creator you really are nothing. Honestly why would you want to do this to her? It was her faith in God that made gave her hope, and I think you have been picking away at that. The cause of this is probably your arguements, infact, I challenge you to find the answers to your arguements here on Catholic Answers, and for everything you were wrong about you go back and apologize and say the truth.

I think you can both work together to find a faith in God. You will see how grand life seems after that!

 

[Angel7]

From Persuader’s previous post:
My comments

Now, you have also questioned my view of sex. Ok, this is a complex issue. More complex than most people realize. It is the reason that TOB can’t be taught in short segments and why it’s not part of a weekly Mass homily which is why most Catholics have never heard about it. The basis of TOB was 20 min weekly talks over the course of 5 years. So the basis is quite complicated.

Is it true that I see sex as commitment? No, not necessarily. Sex, in general, doesn’t imply commitment in a relationship. As I have said, I have had friends with benefits, and I think this is fine as long as you are not in a committed relationship. I am not saying an arrangement like that isn’t without its problems, but given the right type of people it can be a good arrangement.
Well, it can be fun for a while but uncommitted relationships will dissolve because of their nature. “friends with benefits” sounds very familiar.

As far as my relationship with my gf goes - we are in a committed relationship. It is important to notice that sex is different in a committed relationship.
“Committed” to what? Do you just mean monogamous? There is a big difference. Similar difference to “going steady” and “engaged to be married.” Please define “committed” in your reference here.

I can enjoy sex with women without loving them, That goes without saying.

but being in love makes it better, and changes the meaning of sex by reinforcing and increasing our commitment, love and attachment.
Correct. The intent and mechanics (hormonal) of sex. (and you didn’t think you would understand this stuff. It’s as obvious to you as it is to me.

This was actually a problem in a previous relationship. Because I was in love, I was fooled into thinking the sex was generally good, so when I fell out of love, I realized she wasn’t very good in bed.
Typical cycle of a sex based relationship. Being good in bed, I’m afraid doesn’t guarantee a successful relationship. BTDT. Sex is generally good, BTW. Some is just different and may be more to your liking or more exciting… but the basic premise is that sex is always good.

So going forward, every “great thing” about sex with a given person you discover, you will look for in the next and the next and the next… Eventually, you will desire all the “good stuff” in your partner and as you continue to look for a relationship, you will have these performance expectations as a “starting point.” I would suggest that this is not the proper way to find a permanent mate.

When you “require” something so trivial to sustain the relationship, you set yourself up for failure and you partner is doomed from the start. Yes. I can question your view of sex. I had the same misconception (pun intended) as you when I was living as you do.

As a simplistic view of why sex should be reserved for marriage which might make some sense without involving God in the equation is that if neither partner has experience, neither has particular expectations that they bring to the bed. They discover how each other works and strive to obtain what works best for them. Sex is then deeply personal rather than comparative. Would you like to be compared to your partner’s previous boyfriends? When people with multiple partner pasts get together, that is what happens. Even if the person doesn’t say anything, the temptation, at least is there. Do you see where this might be a problem? Do you see the advantage a couple might have in leaving the expectations of past relations out of the equation?

However, I do not think this will happen in my current relationship. I have more experience now, and I think I am able to notice the difference.

It’s a wonderful difference isn’t it? I’ve often heard you should marry your best friend. This gives a “good example” of “friends with benefits.” And likely, better results than you have experienced.

I’m hoping you are getting the idea that what we feel isn’t bad but what we do, can be. It can lead us to make poor decisions. Like we shouldn’t be drunk when making big decisions. We need the clarity to go down the path of life long partner selection. To go into a relationship assuming if things don’t continue to grow in love the way we want them, we’ll just toss it overboard and start again, is to doom it from the start. Going in, if divorce is an option, it will be exercised.

And lastly, chastity prior to marriage would solve a great deal of world issues. Think about it. AIDS and STDs would not be an issue. And the solution is free! You need not think that only those religious nuts need to follow the rules. It’s easy to see if everyone followed the rules, there would be fewer issues the world has to deal with.

Wow nice that is a huge explanation!
I would just answer it by saying “Pre-marital Sex is wrong, don’t do it”
simple. Imagine how many people would not have died if they were Chaste during the AIDS panic. The Lord’s Commandments are there to help us see.

 

[Rachel_1]

Cutting out the sex, I don’t know about that.

Ok, so first you say you’re willing to do anything, then you say this? Doesn’t sound like you’re willing to do “anything”.
Just FYI, my husband was pagan, and has recently told me that he thinks he’s more atheist than pagan because he doesn’t believe there’s anything out there. He pulls his arguments with me as well but instead of mindless arguing over God, I choose to tell him “either you believe or don’t, but I’m not going to argue with you about it” and then I pray for him daily.
I think with me, I came to know God is real and there for me later in life, and nothing will change my mind about God at this point. It took a near death experience for me to find God, I hope it doesn’t take something like that for you or your gf. I’ll pray that God reveals Himself to both of you.
My opinion is, if you say you’ll do anything for her, then do it. The advice given above is good advice. Don’t be selfish, wait for her and do what is right.

 

[Persuader]

Hello again Long time, no see!

First things first. As I understand the NFP-business, it says that:

1. Sex is only acceptable in marriage.
2. You can just use it to delay having children. You cannot rule out children forever

Now, if I got married, it seems to me that contraceptives should be ok as long as we only use it to delay having children (just like delaying with NFP). This talk about giving yourself 100% - I don’t get that. It doesn’t make much sense to me. I can understand the idea behind it, I think, but it sounds like an idea you have imposed on yourself.

You have to understand that my background and thinking about sex is not religious. I do not see this as a moral issue. The way I see it, me having sex will be a good thing for the partner I decide to raise children with. I will bring more to the table, so to speak. I know the truth of this since I have had an affair with an older woman (late 30’s). She was very experienced, and knew what she was doing. I learned a lot from her, and the pleasure she was able to give was quite something. I wouldn’t mind if my gf had that kind of skill (I am not saying my gf is bad in bed). Point is, I wouldn’t see a problem with my gf having experience that could increase our sexual pleasure, so I don’t see it as a problem that I do.

I know of women who have said that they have dumped men because of their lack of experience or ability. The way I see it, the pool of women I have to choose from is bigger if I have experience. I have yet to meet or hear of a woman who would dump a man if he isn’t a virgin, but I know of plenty of women who would dump a man because of his inexperience (or at least view his inexperience in a negative light).

Could I be chaste? If my gf asked for it, I’m sure I would respect her, but me taking the initiative is unlikely. It is just so far from my world, I can’t see it. I appreciate what you are saying, I really do. You might be right about the fact that inexperience will make it easier to stay together because the involved parties don’t have anyone to compare each other to. But even if true, it’s too late for me. I have had fairly steady sex since I was 14 (for 6 years). Sex with girlfriends, random girls, friends with benefits (no romantic feelings, just sex), sex with multiple partners (threesome) etc. This is normal where I live, and no one around me have given me any grief about it.

My religious experience is limited to some class-trips, funerals, weddings and confirmations. My own confirmation was secular, and I was not baptized. I have never felt close to believing in God. Joseph Varga mentioned some anecdotal evidence for miracles. In general, I do not trust anecdotal evidence like this, especially considering the fact that appeal to miracles is commonplace in most religions. People are not to be trusted in this.

 

[flyingfish]

Sex with girlfriends, random girls, friends with benefits (no romantic feelings, just sex), sex with multiple partners (threesome) etc. This is normal where I live, and no one around me have given me any grief about it.

That’s interesting, out of curiosity how common is sex with multiple partners? What percentage of early 20’s have had this?

To be honest I’m surprised by this, I live in a pretty liberal place and the people around me are pretty liberal. Still, I’ve yet to meet anyone who’s had sex with multiple partners.

 

[Persuader]

That’s interesting, out of curiosity how common is sex with multiple partners? What percentage of early 20’s have had this?

To be honest I’m surprised by this, I live in a pretty liberal place and the people around me are pretty liberal. Still, I’ve yet to meet anyone who’s had sex with multiple partners.

I cannot be entirely sure of how common it is. Many people would probably not admit it. I have friends who have tried it. Generally I would say most are women, as women have more power in the sex-market (maybe not the right word). I am not saying sex with multiple partners has ever been a frequent thing for me. I have tried it a few times.

I remember some time ago there was a bit of a controversy because a national TV-station was airing a show for teenagers (13-14 and up) where they talked about sex. In the show, they used some time to talk about sex with multiple partners. When criticized for this, the producers said it was rather commonplace and normal for teens in this day and age.

 

[cat3gs]

That is not true at all. I feel I have a better understanding now, and I am confident things will be resolved either way. If you are right, and she really needs her faith back, you have helped me figure out how I can help her with that. Also, you have given me some insight into the catholic mindframe, something that will not only help with dealing with her, but also with her family.

If I were to request something more, it would be some more advice in dealing with her family, and mother especially. I think she is the biggest obstacle in winning over the family, and making them support my gf and maybe our relationship as well.

I am a mother of a 17 yr old daughter. We converted 5 1/2 yrs ago. My biggest fear is that she will bring home someone like you. Im not judging, its just my motherly fear for my daughters soul.

The only thing you could do to make things easier with your girlfriends mother would be to start taking her daughter to church. To have an open mind when it comes to God and the Catholic faith. Dont poo poo it. Quit being so stubborn!

Oops, I lied ,there is another thing you could do…STOP HAVING SEX. Step up and act like a man. We mothers dont want our daughters having pre-marital sex.(sons either) As someone posted(forgive me Ive forgotten who) our job is to get our children to heaven. When we see something get in the way of that…heaven forbid…momma bear comes charging out.

 

[KrazyKaiju]

Hello, catholics. I hope this is the correct place for this kind of post.

I am not a catholic. In fact, I’m an atheist/agnostic, and personally I’m fine with that, and this has been managable in my relationship with my girlfriend. We have had our discussions and fights over these things, but it has been good.

Lately this have changed. I think I’ve gradually won her over to my way of thinking, but unfortunatly, she has not adopted my positive way of thinking about a life without God. It seems she has lost faith, and not only in God, but in life as well.

In the beginning, I thought it would be good that she lost her faith, but the consequenses have been terrible. I have tried to advance the positives of a life without God, but she isn’t buying it, and I am almost ready to give up on trying to make her adopt a more positive world view.

If I cannot persuade her on this point, I feel that I have destroyed her, and that our relationship will be over. Part of the reason I fell in love with her was because she was full of life. Now it seems that is completely gone, like a needle popping a balloon.

I have been thinking about trying to make her believe again, as this seem to be the only way to fix her. Maybe this is the last chance for our relationship, and maybe the last chance to make her what she used to be. But I have no idea on how to do this. Any advice on this, or some other way to fix things, would be greatly appreciated.

Actually, this whole ordeal may a mixed blessing.

Your way of thinking probably made her question her faith. She had two options:

1. Inspect her belief system more deeply and try to find good reasoning to support it.
2. Assume that atheism/agnosticism is correct.

It sounds like she chose option 2.

But should that necessitate positive thinking? I say no, and here is why:

In my opinion, if atheism is true, almost anything way of thinking is fair game, so long as it is rational and obeys the laws of logic and reason. One can have any outlook on life (whether positive or negative) or any moral beliefs, so long as they do not violate the laws that constrain our universe (namely, logic, reason, physics, chemistry, etc.). That may helps explain why she is behaving the way she is. The change to atheism/agnosticism doesn’t necessitate a positive outlook on life. If anything, the outcome is arbitrary.

This is some food for thought. Feel free to quote me if you have questions.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

And you were insulted by her mother calling you a skirt chaser??

She had you pegged.

So did I.

Your view of sex is so warped you are not capable of an enduring exclusive sexual relationship. That is my prediction.

And you took a virgin. Bet you never had one of those before. Usually you were used to the kind of woman who would bed a boy half her age just for kicks. All interchangeable people to you.

You are a sad person.

Your GF will discover one day she was one more interchangeable set of body parts.

When you get bored with her and someone new comes along you will wander off again.

Then her mother might be able to convince her that “See… I told you to stay away from Godless users.” She may revert back to her faith in a stronger way and really resent you for the rest of her life.

Which would be good.

She’ll be doubly sure to keep her kids away from the kind of guy who has been using females for his own sexual pleasure since he was 14.

No, not all societies are like this. Your behavior is a great example of what happens to the youth when a whole culture loses its sense of God and eternity. The here and now and personal pleasure becomes your own personal god.

You are sad.

I feel sorry for you.

And one of these days your libertine ways will catch up with you. God always forgives. People sometimes. Nature… never.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

This talk about giving yourself 100% - I don’t get that. It doesn’t make much sense to me. I can understand the idea behind it, I think, but it sounds like an idea you have imposed on yourself.

Hi Persuader,
for us, it’s not an idea we have imposed on ourselves. We believe that God made us and God gave us those commandments that regulate sexual behavior. We really believe all that stuff, that Moses met God in person, and God gave him the two stone tablets with the 10 commandments. We also really believe that Jesus was God’s son, and some 2000 years ago he further clarified God’s commandments - e.g. marriage as a lifetime indissoluble covenant between one man and one woman. Furthermore, we believe that Jesus instituted this system of Peter and the other 11 Apostles, whose descendants are the Pope and the Bishops, and gave them infallible (error-free) teaching authority on matters of faith and morals, including the correct use of sexuality. I understand, our differences come from where we are coming from. You believe God doesn’t exist and this religious system is all a human invention, but for those of us who believe in God, this is the manufacturer’s (God’s) instruction manual for his creatures (humans) regarding the correct use of sexuality.

I have yet to meet or hear of a woman who would dump a man if he isn’t a virgin, but I know of plenty of women who would dump a man because of his inexperience (or at least view his inexperience in a negative light).

Living in a thoroughly secular culture, I certainly understand what you are talking about. You see, that’s why we Christians are “not of this world”. What’s good and wise in God’s eyes, is totally incompatible with the things the world (secular culture) considers good and wise. I guess your gf grew up trying to do what was good and wise in God’s eyes, but then you came and persuaded her that God doesn’t exist and thus her whole system of values came under question. It’s not easy to live according to the teachings of the Church and if God doesn’t exist, there’s less incentive to live according to the Church’s teaching. Although there still are some arguments from the “natural law”, e.g. sexual promiscuity carries the inherent danger of nasty incurable and difficult to treat viral infections - HIV/AIDS, HPV (human papilloma virus), genital herpes.

Could I be chaste? If my gf asked for it, I’m sure I would respect her, but me taking the initiative is unlikely. It is just so far from my world, I can’t see it.

Persuader, out of curiosity, because you are coming from a different culture - are there still different gender roles in your age group? I mean, if a man takes the initiative, acts as a leader, how will the woman react to that? Is a would-be husband expected to lead, and will his would-be wife be happy to follow his leadership?

I appreciate what you are saying, I really do. You might be right about the fact that inexperience will make it easier to stay together because the involved parties don’t have anyone to compare each other to. But even if true, it’s too late for me. I have had fairly steady sex since I was 14 (for 6 years). Sex with girlfriends, random girls, friends with benefits (no romantic feelings, just sex), sex with multiple partners (threesome) etc. This is normal where I live, and no one around me have given me any grief about it.

You may want to try living according to this crazy Christian standard that we Catholics follow. In my experience, it’s like regular workout, or healthy eating. You have to push yourself and it’s difficult, but it keeps your soul in better shape. Of course you may counter that by saying that there’s no such thing as a soul that’s independent of our material body and which will survive our death. Well, just try it and see what happens.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

My religious experience is limited to some class-trips, funerals, weddings and confirmations. My own confirmation was secular, and I was not baptized. I have never felt close to believing in God. Joseph Varga mentioned some anecdotal evidence for miracles. In general, I do not trust anecdotal evidence like this, especially considering the fact that appeal to miracles is commonplace in most religions. People are not to be trusted in this.

Well, in this case, the devil is in the details. You have to separate true miracles from anecdotes, mythical fairy tales, hallucinations, and outright lies. That lady from New Orleans, who had terminal metastatic hepatic cancer, but was suddenly cured and lived for another 40 years, is a true miracle. It’s not anecdote, because there were enough witnesses including medical doctors, her family, friends and neighbors. Many people saw her extremely ill, her metastatic cancer was medically documented, and then her unexplainable recovery was also medically documented and she lived in a major metropolitan area for another 40 years to tell her story.

You see, if you are intellectually inquisitive, you will admit that the fact that some people lied or hallucinated, doesn’t necessarily mean that everybody lies or hallucinates. When I was trying to figure out whether there’s any indication that things happen in the world that are supernatural and beyond what’s possible in the material world, I started asking such people whom I trusted, whether they experienced anything like that. For starters, I knew that my own mother had an unexplainable experience in 1984. Our family had a friend, whose wedding was planned for the near future. One night my mom had a dream, which foretold the death of this friend of ours, who was a young man. It turned out that our friend died that very night when my mother had the dream. Then, I collected another unusual story from another friend. This friend had an injury with severe infection to one finger while in the army, and the doctors planned to amputate his finger within a couple of days. He prayed to God, and his finger suddenly recovered. I also collected a third story, from another friend. The grandma of this friend had an unusual dream in the 1950s. She dreamed that seven coffins were brought into the courtyard of the School of Theology in her city (her husband was a professor at that school). The very next day, the political police came (this was in a Communist dictatorship in Romania), and they arrested and took away exactly seven students from the school. Actually they were taken to a prison camp, but survived and were released some 10 years later. Anyway, why did she have the dream just the night before, and why did she correctly foresee the number of people arrested?

Persuader, ask around people whom you trust that do not lie or hallucinate. I was able to collect several stories that are supernatural, miraculous, from reliable people who do not lie. One of these people is my own mother. Also, I knew the priest (he died recently in November 2009) who for some 30 years, spent several weeks per year, every single year, in Fatima (Portugal), where a series of miracles occurred in 1917, witnessed by 70,000 people. This priest interviewed several people who were eyewitnesses to those miracles. These are not anecdotes.

Again, I’m not saying that people do not occasionally hallucinate, invent fairy tales or outright lies, etc. I’m saying, however, that every single instance I mentioned is rightly classified as a documented and proven supernatural event. My inquiries convinced me that the supernatural world exists.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

The events at Fatima, Portugal were witnessed by many, including many atheists and non-believers and other skeptics.

 

[Jesuslives]

Persuader :

I know you don’t like to hear that the sex needs to stop. Love doesn’t exist without God and sex is not loving without God. She knows this in her heart. She may not want to admit it or give this up either but it will be better for her to stop. She is attached to you because sex does that especially to women, it makes you release oxytocin and become attached to a person. She needs to detach herself from you so that she can think more clearly about what she is missing. I know from experience please trust me on this. She is replacing her faith for her sin. Losing her faith in God, is a way she can rationalize what she knows is a sin. Often times the most difficult things to do are the right things. And if this weren’t difficult it wouldn’t be worth it. If you truly love her you would try this for a solid amount of time. Love is sacrifice as you said, it is suffering too.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

We’re on page 30 of trying to tell him that. He’s a cad. He’s gone through more women than he can count.

We’d have better luck trying to educate a fence post.

He’s using her and he likes it and he can’t see that right now she likes it too because it’s new. But his relationship is built on nothing and it will endure about as long as nothing.

 

[crohnie4life]

If I had met someone like the OP when I was single & out w/my friends, we’d label him as PLAYER b/c his only interests is a relationship if sex is involved.

Before I met my DH, I met a few “walking hormones”. As soon as they told me their intentions, they were dumped like a hot potato as their true colors finally came out. They wanted one thing and one thing only. There are women out there who WILL NOT take to being used like the OP’s poor girlfriend. I pray that she wakes up, turns back to her faith, & realizes that this so called relationship is doomed unless she takes charge and LEAVES him for someone who truly loves her & will treat her w/RESPECT.

That is why I pray for my nieces daily b/c of the men (rather IMMATURE boys) out there who want to take advantage of women instead of waiting until marriage. Haven’t they heard of STDS, HIV, or HPV? I guess not as they (just like the OP) seems to think that sleeping around is no big deal. Wonder if his views would change if he were diagnosed w/any of the above mentioned diseases? What would he do if he infected one of his “conquests”? Would he be in denial? make excuses? or take responsibility as a TRUE MAN and own up to his mistakes.

Relationships are built on love, trust, putting Christ in the center of the relationship, and if marriage happens --helping each other get into heaven and by being the best person they possibly can be. NOT by using each other just to satisfy their hormonal urges whenever and by putting oneself FIRST ALL THE TIME. It’s giving of self 110%. It’s not all take (like the OP does).