Relationship in the gutter.

[flyingfish]

He’s using her and he likes it and he can’t see that right now she likes it too because it’s new. But his relationship is built on nothing and it will endure about as long as nothing.

I don’t understand why you are so hateful toward Persuader. He has expressed again and again that he loves his girlfriend.

If he was using her for sex, I doubt he would be posting on a Catholic forum asking Catholics for advice about how to help her with depression over losing faith.

People are not so black and white, plenty of good people have sex before marriage. Most people nowadays have sex before marriage. Those who wait are few and far between. Are they all evil people just using each other for sex?

There are far worse sins than premarital sex, sins of the flesh are some of the least bad sins. Plenty worse things that have to do with a lack of charity, pride, hatefulness and the like.

It’s really beyond me why nearly everyone focuses on sexual sins almost to the exclusion of all else, as though sexual sins are the worst kinds of sins.

 

[agapewolf]

I don’t understand why you are so hateful toward Persuader. He has expressed again and again that he loves his girlfriend.

If he was using her for sex, I doubt he would be posting on a Catholic forum asking Catholics for advice about how to help her with depression over losing faith.

People are not so black and white, plenty of good people have sex before marriage. Most people nowadays have sex before marriage. Those who wait are few and far between. Are they all evil people just using each other for sex?

There are far worse sins than premarital sex, sins of the flesh are some of the least bad sins. Plenty worse things that have to do with a lack of charity, pride, hatefulness and the like.

It’s really beyond me why nearly everyone focuses on sexual sins almost to the exclusion of all else, as though sexual sins are the worst kinds of sins.

She was not hateful at all. She’s calling it as it is. He is using her. That is all that pre-marital sex can be, is use. Read Theology of the body. You will find just how absolutely disgusting and degrading to the human person and God is sexual sin.

 

[flyingfish]

She was not hateful at all. She’s calling it as it is. He is using her. That is all that pre-marital sex can be, is use. Read Theology of the body. You will find just how absolutely disgusting and degrading to the human person and God is sexual sin.

So is gluttony (which I think is the closest of all the sins to sexual sins, since it’s also a temptation of the flesh), do people get similarly upset over overweight people who overeat? They are also sinning. So are lazy people who don’t work hard and squander their talents.

Premarital sex has as much potential to be sex where one partner uses each other as sex within a marriage. How often do you hear women complain about their husbands pressuring them, demanding sex, and rolling over to sleep once they are done.

 

[Jay53]

IThere are far worse sins than premarital sex, sins of the flesh are some of the least bad sins. Plenty worse things that have to do with a lack of charity, pride, hatefulness and the like.

It’s really beyond me why nearly everyone focuses on sexual sins almost to the exclusion of all else, as though sexual sins are the worst kinds of sins.

Not according to Blessed Mother. This is from her message at Fatima:

. Sins of the Flesh: “More souls go to Hell because of the sins of the flesh than for any other reason.” salvemariaregina.info/Message.html

 

[flyingfish]

Not according to Blessed Mother. This is from her message at Fatima:

Catholics are not required to believe people who claim to have spoken to the Blessed Mother. I don’t. I would prefer a theological argument for why sins of the flesh are the worst sins.

 

[Jay53]

Catholics are not required to believe people who claim to have spoken to the Blessed Mother. I don’t. I would prefer a theological argument for why sins of the flesh are the worst sins.

OK. I didn’t say you HAD to believe her. And the quote doesn’t say that they are the “worst” sins - just that more people go to hell because of them. My guess would be probably because of the attitude that you and many other people have about them - that they’re not so bad, it’s not hurting anyone, it’s my body - I can do what I want etc. It is extremely easy for the devil to pounce on that attitude and lead someone down the slippery slope. Exhibit #1: Persuader’s girlfriend.

 

[Norseman82]

Catholics are not required to believe people who claim to have spoken to the Blessed Mother. I don’t. I would prefer a theological argument for why sins of the flesh are the worst sins.

OK, then read in 1 Cor. 6:18 about how we are to shun/flee from lewd conduct/fornication, since “every other sin a man commits is outside his body, but the fornicator sins against his own body”. Clearly fornication is set off as a special class of sin.

 

[flyingfish]

OK, then read in 1 Cor. 6:18 about how we are to shun/flee from lewd conduct/fornication, since “every other sin a man commits is outside his body, but the fornicator sins against his own body”. Clearly fornication is set off as a special class of sin.

Smokers and obese people are sinning against their own body too. I don’t want to give the impression that I am saying it’s okay to commit sexual sins, it would just seem that giving into physical temptation (whether it’s sex or eating too much food or drinking or smoking) isn’t a spiritual sin.

It seems it would be far worse for the soul to say wish evil on other people.

 

[agapewolf]

So is gluttony (which I think is the closest of all the sins to sexual sins, since it’s also a temptation of the flesh), do people get similarly upset over overweight people who overeat? They are also sinning. So are lazy people who don’t work hard and squander their talents.

Premarital sex has as much potential to be sex where one partner uses each other as sex within a marriage. How often do you hear women complain about their husbands pressuring them, demanding sex, and rolling over to sleep once they are done.

No. Pre-marital does not have potential, it is…always, no exceptions, use. it is not self-gift.

Just because marital sex can also be use does not negate this fact.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Pope John Paul II said the opposite of love is not hate. (Ever meet two people that initially hated each other and then went on to be happily married 50 years?) The opposite of love, he said is “use.”

The difference between the fornicator and the glutton is the glutton doesn’t involve someone else’s soul in his sin. And he is not playing with the mechanics of the creation of a new soul. He is not risking conceiving another human being into an inadequate situation.

And fornicating has a way of involving someone’s emotions and making them very vulnerable to changing their attitudes “out of love” or a desire for a “false agreement on important topics” to have a kind of fake intimacy.

P came in his first post practically bragging how he had gotten her to abandon her faith.

FlyingFish, why do I detest him? Because as a mother I pray my children would meet someone who would take the years of love and instruction I gave them and build on that and help my child attain a deeper faith and unity with God and heaven.

I am terrified that one of my children would meet a “persuader” who would destroy a lifetime of values and chortle about it online to strangers, how he convinced her there was no God.
And then tell everyone how he didn’t intend to marry her and she was sad and he liked her because she was hot and all about her orgasms and how much she liked screwing him. And then tell us how many other women and groups of women he used to do that to, and how he was even princely enough to stop banging the friend with benefits he had before her got this one in the sack. And now he has her on birth control (her idea, he claims, but if he had self control, she wouldn’t need birth control.)

You will say “if her faith was deep he couldn’t lead her away.” Well, you then don’t know what happens to innocence and the human heart and how evil people can use the basic desire to be loved and wanted in order to destroy you or the people you love. And how a woman’s first sexual partner can cause a bond she never understood before and she thinks it’s forever (and everyone else knows how this movie ends and it doesn’t look happy from here.)

I think he’s selfish and predatory and he has done nothing but come here and proudly tell us that our suggestion that he stop banging her would be a way to let her see things more realistically. And that is his last resort.

And he plays the victim because the people who love her more than he could ever know don’t like him. (I doubt he knows what real love is. He confuses it with nerve endings. He certainly doesn’t understand what it is to love a child more than your own life and how it causes physical pain to see your child hurting and in danger.)

All he does is argue that we are wrong. His whole life story in all of his 21 years or so is testimony to how right we are. What does he have to show for his life but a trail of used women, used condoms, disappointed and broken hearts and a pile of arrogance reaching to the sky? He has no god but his own private parts, to put it bluntly.

Come back when you have a college age daughter and ask me why I don’t like his kind.

No, sexual sins aren’t the worst, but they’re the easiest ones Satan can use to rope people in to damnation… through dulling them to the role of God in their lives, through killing the life of grace in their soul and God forbid, through the abortion of any hapless children that get in the way of such “passion.”

Because they’re so easy and pleasurable, MORE souls go to hell because of it. But if you read Dante’s Inferno, as he puts those who sin sexually up there with gluttons, maybe they’re in the outer reaches of hell, but they’re in hell for all eternity nonetheless, having traded the love of God for the false promises of Satan and the other Persuaders of the world.

Has he come here and said he has changed anything? No. Has he taken responsibility for his corruption of an innocent girl? NO.

He’s only sorry because she was sad for a while. But once she’s happy again, he can use her with no problem. You’d have to have a conscience for that.

She was raised to believe sex was part of a forever love. He is incapable of that as he is now. This is a very predictable situation. And he seems determined to tell us our values are based on lies because he doesn’t FEEL what we believe is right.

He has convinced me there is only one “feeling” that he cares about in this world. I hurt for the family that has lost their daughter to this man. She is in sexual bondage to him and thinks it’s willing. But she isn’t free to walk away from him. She doesn’t even know she’s in bondage to him. He has the capacity to set her free but he won’t.

You ask me why I don’t like him?

come on!

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

Persuader, could you invite your girlfriend to the Forum? Would she be willing to come online and check out this thread, and talk to us?

 

[Norseman82]

Smokers and obese people are sinning against their own body too. I don’t want to give the impression that I am saying it’s okay to commit sexual sins, it would just seem that giving into physical temptation (whether it’s sex or eating too much food or drinking or smoking) isn’t a spiritual sin.

It seems it would be far worse for the soul to say wish evil on other people.

Take it up with the Author.

 

[flyingfish]

I am terrified that one of my children would meet a “persuader” who would destroy a lifetime of values and chortle about it online to strangers, how he convinced her there was no God.

…

You will say “if her faith was deep he couldn’t lead her away.” Well, you then don’t know what happens to innocence and the human heart and how evil people can use the basic desire to be loved and wanted in order to destroy you or the people you love. And how a woman’s first sexual partner can cause a bond she never understood before and she thinks it’s forever (and everyone else knows how this movie ends and it doesn’t look happy from here.)

When I was a teenager I did not have firm beliefs. I had boyfriends who pulled me into their way of thinking, some of them were quite a bit older and I followed their lead all the more as a result.

That said, I don’t think it makes sense to blame a young woman’s undefined views about life on her boyfriend. Of course a relationship, sexual or not, is going to make a person more open to the views of their partner, but Persuader’s girlfriend has a mind of her own. He didn’t make her leave the faith, she chose to.

Might it be that if she hadn’t met him she would have never been exposes to secular views? I really doubt it, since from the OP’s description he lives in a very secular place where such views are the norm rather than the exception.

Has he come here and said he has changed anything? No. Has he taken responsibility for his corruption of an innocent girl? NO.

I don’t think you can expect an atheist to follow the teachings of the Catholic Church. He doesn’t believe in it.

He has convinced me there is only one “feeling” that he cares about in this world. I hurt for the family that has lost their daughter to this man. She is in sexual bondage to him and thinks it’s willing. But she isn’t free to walk away from him. She doesn’t even know she’s in bondage to him. He has the capacity to set her free but he won’t.

I don’t know, you are making it sound as though he tied her up in some basement, brainwashed her, and is now raping her.

She is using him just as much as he is using her. She is just as much an actor in their sex life as he is.

I understand why it makes you upset as a parent that she just went and threw away everything she was raised with, but it really was her choice. He didn’t force her to date him or sleep with him or stop believing in God. She is not a baby. She made her decisions because she made them, not because he forced her.

 

[dakotagirl]

Oh_my_flipping_word! I cannot believe all the people who are trying to defend this boy. At one point in these THIRTY-ONE PAGES of his refusal to do what is right he said he was ready to give up the sex, only to show his true colors a few pages later and say he “didn’t know” if he could do that. Listen to Liberanosamalo. (Not only is she an excellent writer) but she calls it how it IS to men who are pigs!

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

If Persuader’s gf was my daughter, I would be a nervous wreck by now. Imagine, you raise your child with so much care, and you send her out to college healthy and happy. And within a few months, she is totally messed up, and even her physical health is slipping away. That hormonal **** she is fixed up with, in order not to become pregnant, is no joke. And what will a secular shrink do, most probably? Treat the symptoms of her depression, ignoring the cause. Oh how I wish this girl would come online here at the forums!

Other than that, certainly plenty of blame falls on her for the mess she got herself into. These are those rebellious years when children think they know everything, and won’t listen to their parents. But they are only poor fools, and make fools of themselves or worse.

 

[flyingfish]

Oh_my_flipping_word! I cannot believe all the people who are trying to defend this boy. At one point in these THIRTY-ONE PAGES of his refusal to do what is right he said he was ready to give up the sex, only to show his true colors a few pages later and say he “didn’t know” if he could do that. Listen to Liberanosamalo. (Not only is she an excellent writer) but she calls it how it IS to men who are pigs!

I am not defending premarital sex, I am merely saying that you cannot expect an atheist who does not believe there is anything at all wrong with premarital sex to listen to Catholics who tell him he must stop it because it’s against the will of God.

Think about it, if a bunch of Muslims told you that you’re evil because you’re not a in a burka would you go and put one on?

He sincerely doesn’t believe there is anything wrong with premarital sex.

 

[Jay53]

I am not defending premarital sex, I am merely saying that you cannot expect an atheist who does not believe there is anything at all wrong with premarital sex to listen to Catholics who tell him he must stop it because it’s against the will of God.

Think about it, if a bunch of Muslims told you that you’re evil because you’re not a in a burka would you go and put one on?

He sincerely doesn’t believe there is anything wrong with premarital sex.

But he knows *something *is wrong and he came here looking for advice. Most everyone here is telling him the same thing - he just doesn’t “want” to believe it. He still has Satan whispering to him that there’s “nothing wrong with it”, “it feels good”, “we’re two consenting adults”, “we’re expressing our ‘love’ for each other” etc etc. Doing the right thing for this girl would involve self-sacrifice on his part and he doesn’t love her enough to do it.

 

[Kit15]

I am merely saying that you cannot expect an atheist who does not believe there is anything at all wrong with premarital sex to listen to Catholics who tell him he must stop it because it’s against the will of God.

Think about it, if a bunch of Muslims told you that you’re evil because you’re not a in a burka would you go and put one on?

He sincerely doesn’t believe there is anything wrong with premarital sex.

But being an atheist has little to do with it. One of my Catholic friends thought there was nothing wrong with pre-marital sex as long as the couple loves each other. Then he said something really scary to us over dinner (he is a mutual friend of DH and I from before we married) that indicated just how much he and his fiancee were addicted to sex in the relationship. Basically…she needed it because of low self-esteem and he was using that to justify having sex with her. He had to have sex with her in order to keep her happy. If he didn’t, she would feel ugly. And they were getting married!

I’m happy to report that the two of them seem to have gotten on the right track . I’m not as worried for them as I once was. But it involved giving up the sex. She needed to realize that he loved her for her and not because she put out. He needed to prove it.

I’m not married to a Catholic. I’m married to an Agnostic. You know how much pre-marital sex he wanted to have? None. And he had all these reasons for doing so and not one of them was “because God says so”.

There are other atheists and agnostics out there, who while adopting an “you do what you want it’s not my business” attitude and may have little to no faith in God, can still somehow manage to see that pre-marital sex can be like playing with fire. I can guarantee you it’s not Persuader’s atheism that is keeping him from stopping the pre-marital sex.

 

[newbetx]

We’d have better luck trying to educate a fence post.

Maybe. Certainly the way some go about “educating” others around here with judgment and insult, deaf ears are sure to develop. As previous posts describe, he and I were not much different. Lecture, insult, warnings didn’t bring me around. And I suspect most others don’t respond positively to it either.

The Devil separated me from Christ. My arrogance, ignorance and some “religious fanatics” helped to maintain that distance for many, many years. Maybe this form of attack works for some, but I think that the “lightening bolt” method works better for God and not people.

My point is that everyone here speaks the truth about the situation from the perspective of their opinion of what is going on which is not in accordance with proper respect for human kind. In other words, there are many good points and painfully truthful ones in these posts but to deliver the points with a slap to the face does not do CAF, Christ nor the confused, any good.

He came here with true concern for his girlfriend and a complete misunderstanding of the Catholic faith. He doesn’t have to stay and listen to damnation. The biggest thing I learned to help me on the right path is that the Church is patient. We, as Christians, need to be moreso with those that come here wanting to understand but don’t know how.

If anyone here thinks that by insulting the sinner, the ignorant or misinformed will somehow miraculously transform them, I think you are fooling yourself. Jesus call those with cold hearts names because he knew their hearts. We don’t know these people’s hearts but we are called to evangelize. God has the power to judge and he will do so. He doesn’t need our help for that.

Above all we are to treat our guests here on CAF with charity. After all, if we are the representatives of Christ, we are called to love, not judge those that threaten not only us and our faith, but remember, they are a threat to themselves, as well. We may not reach them, today, as we can’t turn a weed into a stalk of wheat, either. We can plant the seeds of our faith and hope for a good harvest in the future.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

to listen to Catholics who tell him he must stop it because it’s against the will of God.

We also appealed to him on the level of his basic humanity (?) that as a young girl she was bonding chemically and psychologically with him on a level that the flimsy relationship didn’t support and that her actions were causing such a disjoint with the view of the universe she grew up with that she was becoming depressed.

Even such a basic appeal on the biological level left him arguing with us that he was right and we were wrong. After all, he’s 21 whole years old and has been doing this stuff for 7 years.

So he knows everything.

No, you don’t need to be bound by duct tape and in a basement with a gag over your mouth to be in “bondage.” Yes, she made “free” choices. But the further you get away from your teen years and the more you look at brain development the more you realize that young people at that age do not make informed choices. So how free is the choice if it’s made in ignorance? Marriages have been annulled for reasons such as this. This boy persuaded her to start having sex with him and she may have been eager, not realizing what she was getting herself into. And now she is “hooked” on the “drug” called Persuader. Her self esteem is dependent on him. Her brain chemistry is dependent on the endorphins released during sexual activity. She has cut herself off from everything else and her choices have made her feel alienated from her family. She is dependent on this boy for her own mental well-being now. A fact that scared him enough to come here. Because he wasn’t able to sustain her very well. And at least he was smart enough to know that. He is an irresponsible boy who has found himself responsible for another soul’s welfare through his own actions of leading her away from everyone else. He broke it, he bought it.

Being in bondage to sexual sin and its corrosive effects on the soul is as hazardous as being in bondage to alchohol. Does the alcoholic, when he takes that first drink, really know what he may be starting? How much is he consenting to a physical and moral free fall when he starts down that path? Eventually cravings and biology take over. How much free will is involved after a while?

Yes, this girl made “free” choices. But how free is a teenage girl in the thrall of her first “physical relationship?” I promise you this one thinks he is forever. And she probably is ignoring his multitudinous previous partners and telling herself “She” is “different” and this will last and he is “forever.” When everything in his life experience up till now indicates the exact opposite.

As for morality being something the Catholic Church teaches… well… not entirely. We have standards written in our souls. Natural law. Some things we instinctively know are wrong. I knew atheists and agnostics who would have shied away from being the one to deflower a virgin. The Catholic Church also teaches that it’s wrong to cut up your next door neighbor and make soup out of him and serve him at the county fair. Would any atheist come to this board and disagree that such a stricture doesn’t apply to them, because they’re not “Catholic?”

The Catholic Church teaches that stealing from your aged grandmother’s retirement account is immoral. Would Persuader come here and say that doesn’t apply to him because he isn’t Catholic and doesn’t believe in God?

The Catholic Church says that running over kittens with your car for sport is evil. Would Persuader say that since he doesn’t believe in God he is free to do that?

The Catholic Church says that selling drugs to young children is evil. Would Persuader say that since he doesn’t believe in the Catholic Church’s teachings he is free to make his money that way?

Oh… but eventually there is a line that Persuader will draw and say beyond this line he can determine his morality for himself. The dispute between him and the Catholic Church is where that line ends. Because he has dulled himself and his naturally-given conscience by free and easy sex over the years he has lost the ability to see its importance and value. He has cheapened his own view of the act and eroded its significance. To him it’s like kicking a football around with someone. But he brought his rules for the game into someone’s life who was raised that it was a holy and significant act to be shared in the context of sacred vows. Instead of respecting that, he convinced her to cheapen herself. She’s now playing by his rules. When she finds out she’s not permanent she probably won’t take it well.