Relationship in the gutter.

[whatevergirl]

*Liberano, I agree with everything you’re saying. With the caveat that she is 19, and while he might have been ‘‘persuasive,’’ she is sleeping with him of her own free accord. He’s not forcing her, she is also responsible for HER OWN actions. I teach my daughter that men out there will use her, IF SHE LETS THEM. This girl is letting this happen. This is why we have to teach our kids, both boys and girls, that there are consequences to our actions. There are consequences to straying from the faith, to sleeping with people before marriage, etc. She broke this TOO…and she buys it TOO. I blame the OP only to the extent of his own actions, but I don’t blame him for the actions of his gf. She needs to own her own responsibility in this, for if she doesn’t…she will never get out of this sexual relationship, and come back to God. Only when we own our sin, do we venture back to God.

I just think the OP is getting a bit too much blame for a 19 year old girl’s CHOICE. And I go back to my original statement earlier in this thread…I am sensing her Catholic foundation was already a little shaky, if she could let someone who doesn’t even believe in God, dismantle her life like this. Just my two cents.

I agree though in principle with what you’re saying, but this girl has made choices too…she needs to cope with the consequences of her choices, just like he does. They both have to face the music, now…together. He isn’t more culpable for having sex with her, than she is…she freely said yes, and while she might be in love…she still makes the choice. I teach my now 13 yr old daughter that someday, she will run across boys who will want to use her for sex. To be on guard, to be aware. If she chooses a different path, I won’t blame the boy…I will blame her. (unless the boy literally forces himself physically on her, and that is NOT happening in this scenario in this thread)

Just my vantage point. *

 

[whatevergirl]

Maybe. Certainly the way some go about “educating” others around here with judgment and insult, deaf ears are sure to develop. As previous posts describe, he and I were not much different. Lecture, insult, warnings didn’t bring me around. And I suspect most others don’t respond positively to it either.

The Devil separated me from Christ. My arrogance, ignorance and some “religious fanatics” helped to maintain that distance for many, many years. Maybe this form of attack works for some, but I think that the “lightening bolt” method works better for God and not people.

My point is that everyone here speaks the truth about the situation from the perspective of their opinion of what is going on which is not in accordance with proper respect for human kind. In other words, there are many good points and painfully truthful ones in these posts but to deliver the points with a slap to the face does not do CAF, Christ nor the confused, any good.

He came here with true concern for his girlfriend and a complete misunderstanding of the Catholic faith. He doesn’t have to stay and listen to damnation. The biggest thing I learned to help me on the right path is that the Church is patient. We, as Christians, need to be moreso with those that come here wanting to understand but don’t know how.

If anyone here thinks that by insulting the sinner, the ignorant or misinformed will somehow miraculously transform them, I think you are fooling yourself. Jesus call those with cold hearts names because he knew their hearts. We don’t know these people’s hearts but we are called to evangelize. God has the power to judge and he will do so. He doesn’t need our help for that.

Above all we are to treat our guests here on CAF with charity. After all, if we are the representatives of Christ, we are called to love, not judge those that threaten not only us and our faith, but remember, they are a threat to themselves, as well. We may not reach them, today, as we can’t turn a weed into a stalk of wheat, either. We can plant the seeds of our faith and hope for a good harvest in the future.

I enjoyed reading this post of yours. You and Liberano make excellent points here. .

 

[Liberanosamalo]

He came here with true concern for his girlfriend and a complete misunderstanding of the Catholic faith. He doesn’t have to stay and listen to damnation. The biggest thing I learned to help me on the right path is that the Church is patient. We, as Christians, need to be moreso with those that come here wanting to understand but don’t know how.

Gee, Newbetx, you talking about me?



Go back to the beginning and read his proud posts about how he ruined her. Yes, he came here with true concern. And he asked for the Catholic viewpoint. He got it. How did he respond? In a way that would have made us back off and educate him? No. He bragged about how much pleasure she got from her hookups with him and he told us he wasn’t going to listen to us unless all his other big ideas didn’t work. He blamed her parents for their reaction to this situation. He told us even after we advised him that he just couldn’t “help himself” and he continued to have sex with her. When was he going to stop and maybe listen to us? After she maybe attempted suicide?

Let’s reframe the debate.

Boy comes here after taking money from girlfriend’s bank account. Yes, she gave him the password and PIN number. He has started withdrawing funds. She needs that money for her living expenses. She is getting depressed because she has no money. He comes here and asks us what to do to cure her depression. After all, when he met her, she was rich and happy. Now she is unsure where her next meal is coming from. We tell him to stop stealing from her bank account. He comes back and tells us “Well, I might consider that after all other options fail. But I like stealing her money. It buys me stuff. And since I don’t believe in God, I can just keep taking her money. After all, she gave me her PIN. I’ve been stealing money from my girlfriends forever. I even was making withdrawals on a friends bank account, but when I met this one, she was richer so I stopped taking the other girl’s money. And she gives me money. By the fistful. She insists I take it. It makes her happy to give me all her money. So I can’t help myself.”

Would we react in “charity” to this and say, “Well, a fool and her money are soon parted” and tell him to go ahead and make her completely destitute?

Newbetx, do you have teenage daughters? If someone were doing that to your daughter, would you want the world reacting to him with love and patience after he persuaded her to empty her bank account (that you saved and contributed to for 18 years yourself to ensure she had a good college education?) What about the charity owed to this girl and her family, who have been hurt by Persuader?

I go back to an early question in this thread. What would Jesus have said to someone who corrupts the innocence of young people? He spoke of millstones and people being thrown in the sea. On many occasions He spoke of bundles of chaff gathered up to be thrown in the fire. He said, “It would have been better for that man had he never been born.”

He didn’t sugarcoat it so that those who used and took from innocent people would feel good about themselves. He turned over tables and used a whip when the moneychangers
corrupted the sanctity of the temple with their sinful cheating. What about the temple of this girl’s body? How much more precious is that to Christ, who traded his life for her immortal soul? Persuader comes here and says that because he doesn’t believe in Christ that sacrifice is meaningless to him. And he can use that girl’s body at will.

If you reread 31 pages, you will see a scattershot of various approaches. Kind, stern, understanding, sympathetic, harsh… nothing seems to have gotten through this poster’s head. He is going to do what he wants to do until outside forces change the situation. Till someone hotter comes along, till this girl has a complete breakdown, till she gets pregnant despite her BC, or one of them (probably him) gets bored.

And when 100 percent of the people he asked for advice told him the same thing, he didn’t listen.

You don’t do the truth any favors when you blame the messengers for the fact that in spite of the hours people have spent trying to communicate with him he persists in his world view that coincidentally benefits him more than anyone else.

If that was your daughter, would you be so warm and fuzzy about his arrogance and pride in convincing her that there was no God who loved her.

See, he wasn’t content to live in his own world. He had to change her view (because in the beginning he thought it would be good if she were unleashed from all that pesky morality that kept her from jumping into bed with him like all those other girls who didn’t have such moral codes stopping them from doing it alone or in groups.)

You think someone like that doesn’t deserve at least a verbal slap in the face? Many of us are taking this from the point of view of parents. Do you have kids? If someone was teaching your kid that the Church had no validity and there was no God and working and arguing your child out of their point of view because they had more practice arguing against the notion of God than your child had in defending it, would you be so generous in spirit toward a person? Especially if that person was talking your child out of that position so they could take your child’s virginity?

continued

 

[Liberanosamalo]

How much real concern for his girlfriend did he have if he wouldn’t stop having sex with her (even the next day he did it again!) because people who knew about the guilt and the denial she was going through told him to stop for her sake.

The problem with this world is everyone is so worried about the feelings of criminals, predators, users, and victimizers and not worried enough about the damage they do to others.

He came here hoping we’d what? Tell him to bang her more to really kill what was left of her conscience?

Give me a break.

He came here with deaf ears. He wanted advice on how to talk to her family after giving them the biggest insult someone could give devout parents of a teenage girl.

 

[whatevergirl]

*I am wondering if her parents are hurting also, because deep down, they realize that on some level, their daughter wasn’t as devout as them. It happens.

I pray for Persuader and his gf…that he converts (I’m still holding out hope for that) and that his gf realizes that this is not a good way to live her life, and comes back to the faith. May the Holy Spirit impress that upon them both, very soon. *

 

[whatevergirl]

How much real concern for his girlfriend did he have if he wouldn’t stop having sex with her (even the next day he did it again!) because people who knew about the guilt and the denial she was going through told him to stop for her sake.

The problem with this world is everyone is so worried about the feelings of criminals, predators, users, and victimizers and not worried enough about the damage they do to others.

He came here hoping we’d what? Tell him to bang her more to really kill what was left of her conscience?

Give me a break.

He came here with deaf ears. He wanted advice on how to talk to her family after giving them the biggest insult someone could give devout parents of a teenage girl.

Well, you and others have planted lots of good seeds. It’s up to God now, to bring about a harvest in his heart. It won’t change overnight. He won’t change overnight. Embedded sins and habits take time to not only let go of, but it takes time to change one’s ways from bad to good…to following Christ. I would not feel that your posts have gone in vain, if nothing else, others who have read this and have not posted, have learned tons, and will take the advice to heart. Hopefully, Persuader does, too.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Whatevergirl, I agree she is 19. So she owns her choice. But not completely. With someone else, maybe the guy may have felt guilt too and stopped. And she would have been freer to admit the real reason for her depression. Instead this guy wants her to go get pills or something and treat the symptom, not the cause. Her faith may have been young and shaky. Does that give someone an excuse to tear it down so they can get in her bed? When he met her she was doing good in the world, working with people in a volunteer capacity. Being the light of Christ to others. Now she is useless even to herself.

I say he has such a cheap view of sex that he doesn’t understand its power in binding two people together. That’s why God put it in marriage alone. The two become one. This girl has become him, not the other way around. How sad that outside of a grace filled marriage the story couldn’t have been the reverse: Young atheist meets beautiful girl. Entranced with her, he waits. He marries her. And in their union she changes his world view and brings him to a vision of God’s presence and grace and changes his heart for the better. He sees the world and eternity through her eyes, not the other way around.

THAT would have been a beautiful story.

This is tawdry.

I feel horrible for every parent out there who sends their child out hoping they gave them enough in 18 short years to confront the world, and all it takes is one persuader to undo 18 years of work and prayer.

 

[whatevergirl]

*Yes, I hear you, Liberano. It has to be very tough. I pray for my kids and everyone’s I know, that they make wise holy choices when they become adults. It has to be heartbreaking to raise one’s kid a certain way, and it ‘‘gets undone.’’ But, it doesn’t get undone without a person’s permission. I do agree that love taints a woman’s vision…clouds her judgement. On some level, she HAD to abandon the faith in order to keep this going…can’t serve man and God. So, that is what has probably befallen her now, that in order to BE with this guy, she has to abandon God. That’s a pretty sobering concept, I feel for her. Hopefully this experience though will bring her back to holiness. *

 

[PeterMuz]

Hello, catholics. I hope this is the correct place for this kind of post.

I am not a catholic. In fact, I’m an atheist/agnostic, and personally I’m fine with that, and this has been managable in my relationship with my girlfriend. We have had our discussions and fights over these things, but it has been good.

Lately this have changed. I think I’ve gradually won her over to my way of thinking, but unfortunatly, she has not adopted my positive way of thinking about a life without God. It seems she has lost faith, and not only in God, but in life as well.

In the beginning, I thought it would be good that she lost her faith, but the consequenses have been terrible. I have tried to advance the positives of a life without God, but she isn’t buying it, and I am almost ready to give up on trying to make her adopt a more positive world view.

If I cannot persuade her on this point, I feel that I have destroyed her, and that our relationship will be over. Part of the reason I fell in love with her was because she was full of life. Now it seems that is completely gone, like a needle popping a balloon.

I have been thinking about trying to make her believe again, as this seem to be the only way to fix her. Maybe this is the last chance for our relationship, and maybe the last chance to make her what she used to be. But I have no idea on how to do this. Any advice on this, or some other way to fix things, would be greatly appreciated.

Well, I’m not going to lie, I did not read all the posts between the first and now. There are way too many for that. I did see the discussion about contraception though. On that front, the fact that you asked for a book and then said you were not going to make it a priority says a lot. I also think that it shows a real lack of openness to the truth. For now we don’t need to define truth, but if you are not open, then you’ve wasted all you time with your posts.

I would recommend Contraception Why Not by Janet Smith. You can look it up online and get a free cd or read the talk on the website. This may help convince you of some of the negative side effects of contraception or at least help explain why your gf seems down. I will say, that it does not surprise me one bit that she is less attractive(and I’m not saying just physically) to you then when you started dating.

Life without God is not a more positive life. Thinking of a life without God is not a more positive way to think. It may feel that way temporarily, because when you are denying that God exists you are really just making yourself your own moral authority, which means you can justify whatever you want. However, being your own moral authority carries a ton of weight, which is not really something I would want to carry. I think a book you really need to read is on moral relativism. Peter Kreeft wrote a book called “Refutation of Moral Relativism” that is really good. I’ll give you a link to it at the end of my post. Then you can figure out the contraception thing. It will make more sense logically in that order. In the mean time ask yourself this question: “what if I am wrong and there is a God?” “What if contraception and sex outside of marriage is morally wrong?”

I think if you ask those questions and you are open and honest, you would stop using contraception and stop having sex until you do your research. It is actually a more positive thought to realize that God, who created you, has a plan and cooperating with that plan is most is when you are most free.

Take sex for instance. What is more “free” sex using contraception, or sex without it (using NFP if you do not want to get pregnant)? When you use contraception, you have to put all your trust in a contraceptive. You actually in a sense become a slave to that contraceptive. What if that contraceptive fails? What if you become a father while you are still a student, what does that mean for your social life? What if there really is a God and contraceptive or sex outside of marriage are morally wrong? You have to justify these things. You have to have an answer, that is without a doubt correct.
If you use sex how God created it, within the confines of marriage, the only thing you have to ask is are you ready for a baby? If not, you abstain during the days of the month when the woman is fertile.

I know you mentioned what type of contraceptive your gf uses but I do not remember. If it is a chemical/hormonal contraceptive, then that is probably a big reason why you seem to be less attracted to her. Part of what draws to people together are the pheromones. Hormonal contraceptives alter the pheromones, thus having an effect on the level of attractiveness you may have for your gf.

These are just a few things to keep in mind. I could go into what sex is meant to be and what it is for, but I think it would be better for me to ask you… What do you think is the goal or purpose for sex?

amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0898707315/theofficiapet-20

 

[jenlovesyu]

I totally agree with Joseph L Varga. It would be nice if the OP’s girlfriend could come here.

She needs to own her own responsibility in this, for if she doesn’t…she will never get out of this sexual relationship, and come back to God. Only when we own our sin, do we venture back to God.

This.
I think that essentially Liberano and Whatevergirl, you both are saying the same thing. Whatevergirl is touching on the fact that yes, this girl needs to own up to what she’s doing because otherwise she will never turn back to the Lord. But Liberano is explaining how difficult that is going to be considering the circumstances.

All of us females can attest to the way a teenage girl thinks. Add sex and “ohh i’m so in luv!” into the picture and there’s no telling when a girl will get her head straight.

When I was in the midst of my past relationship (which is still less than a year ago), I had several people, including Liberano, tell me that I needed to stop what I was doing right away and that the relationship was unhealthy for me. I didn’t listen quite well the first time around. Was it because I was being rebellious and stubborn? No it was because I was hyped up on hormones and stupidity. Even now I am still dealing with the effects of that relationship. Every once and a while I’ll start thinking…“oh I kinda miss him” :doh2:
My past mistakes have taught me just how powerful an effect sex can have on a person, especially a woman. I thank the Good Lord that I was able to stop sinning and start living a more holy life as a new Catholic and new mom

In general though, I think we all know just how easy it is to fall into sin. I hope and pray that the Holy Spirit will help these two see the folly of what they’re doing and help them to lead holier lives.

 

[whatevergirl]

*Yes, indeed! Perfectly put, jenlovesyu. The ultimate problem is that the girl ‘‘gave up’’ God for the relationship, if she gives up the guy…who can she turn to? (this might be what she’s thinking) God never leaves us or abandons us, He is our one, true hope. But, she has strayed, so she might feel a tremendous sense of angst and guilt, and sometimes, that keeps people from turning back to God, interestingly. *

 

[Persuader]

I am happy to learn about the catholic faith, but this nonsensical abuse concerning my sexual morality has to stop. It seems like some of you can’t help yourself. Apparently, I’m a user without any real feelings for the people around me – I just throw them away like they are nothing (what a despicable thing to say to a fellow human being that you hardly know). Apparently, I’m only interested in sex, treat women disrespectfully, and might be giving them STDs.

Well, let’s see how those statements compare with reality. I have had one committed relationship before my gf. It lasted for over 2 years, and we split up after we realized that love was gone, and that we were not right for each other. We have been friends since. Did I mistreat this girl? No

Generally, I have not misrepresented myself in my sexual encounters. I haven’t led women on, telling them I was interested in a relationship if that were not the case. Nor have I ever cheated. Not with my ex or my current gf. This is because I respect my fellow human beings.

I did not have sex with my gf until she decided she was ready (4 months in to the relationship). Initially, I thought she wouldn’t have sex outside of marriage, but then she decided it would be so. I even asked her if this wouldn’t clash with her religion, and she explained how her views had developed to accept premarital sex. Saying I’m only interested in sex, given this relationship, is just ridiculous. Moreover, I have always protected myself, and before me and my gf started having sex, I took an STD-test that came out negative.

My sexual morality is based on safe sex between consenting individuals. As far as sexual encounters outside a committed relationship goes, I am careful in my choices. I try to make sure I’m not dealing with a woman who will read too much into it, and take it the wrong way. You can never be completely certain (even of yourself), and feelings can develop even if you do not want or intend it. I have already acknowledged that there potential risks and problems connected with having sex outside of a committed relationship, but sound judgment greatly reduces those risks and problems. The females that live in my country doesn’t expect an exclusive relationship after a ONS (I’m quite sure it’s the same in the US). When it comes to FWB, it is already agreed by both parties that there is no romantic interest there. If something develops from one party, that party is supposed to communicate this. If the romantic interest isn’t mutual, you should break it off before it develops further.

Most of you have advised that I stop having sex. So what is my reasoning for not following this advice? Well, my motivation for following the advice in the first place was based on the fact that I was worried that my gf might need her faith back to be happy. Since I started this thread, my gfs mood has improved greatly. So the motivation for trying this has almost vanished, hasn’t it? Why would I cut out sex when she is improving and neither of us believe in the reasoning behind it? Would I do it if this was the only way for her to be happy? You bet, but that doesn’t seem to be the case.

Hey, I tell you what - if her happiness (as far as I can discern) reach a plateau significantly lower than what was the case a couple of months ago, I will try the religious route. Until this is evident, I have no reason to, and no fair-minded view of yours would suggest that I do. But some of you are hardly fair-minded, are you? Actually, you are disrespectful, narrow-minded, and guided by emotion. You claim I am basing my decisions purely on feelings. How about the string of emotionally motivated assumptions made to cast me in the most negative light possible? You have the nerve to makes these assumptions, and then you turn around and say I’m basing my decisions on emotions? What a joke.

You seem to think yourself entitled to badmouth people that doesn’t conform or believe as you do - thinking you have the right to abuse others because they disagree on how to live life. That might be acceptable if I left scores of crying women in my wake , but that is hardly the case (just one of your many assumptions). Interesting how weak and fragile women are in these made-up scenarios of yours btw. Anyway, what has been my reaction to your abuse? Have I lashed out against your sexual morality or your overconfidence in the truth of your religion? No. You might think it is faultless, but I certainly don’t. Nevertheless, I’m respectful enough to shut up about it. I have simply asked questions to gain a better understanding. This isn’t a thread about trying to win a debate on morality, it’s a thread about learning things that can help my relationship with my gf and her family by increasing my understanding of the catholic faith.

I suggest we continue the conversation about Catholicism and relationships (yes, I think some of you have some interesting views), and stop with the abuse. It accomplishes nothing except making me doubt if I should even bother learning about your religion. Inviting my gf to these forums? It might be a good idea if I wanted to increase the likelihood of her never touching Catholicism ever again. She didn’t appreciate her mother’s ranting, and she probably won’t appreciate yours either. Fortunately her mother has calmed down quite a bit. Let’s see if you can show some maturity and manage the same. The ball is in your court.

 

[flyingfish]

As for morality being something the Catholic Church teaches… well… not entirely. We have standards written in our souls. Natural law.

…
The Catholic Church teaches that stealing from your aged grandmother’s retirement account is immoral. Would Persuader come here and say that doesn’t apply to him because he isn’t Catholic and doesn’t believe in God?

The Catholic Church says that running over kittens with your car for sport is evil. Would Persuader say that since he doesn’t believe in God he is free to do that?

The problem with natural law is that our mind and bodies can’t tell the difference between a sacramental marriage and a love relationship.

That is why if you ask most people, religious and otherwise, they will tell you that there’s nothing wrong with having sex with a person you’re in love with even if you’re not married. That’s why most people, Catholics included, have premarital sex.

I think you would have a strong natural law argument against things like friends with benefits and threesomes, but not against exclusive love relationships.

 

[Monica4316]

Well, my motivation for following the advice in the first place was based on the fact that I was worried that my gf might need her faith back to be happy. Since I started this thread, my gfs mood has improved greatly.

Let me ask you a question… WHAT IF it’s all true? what if Catholicism is real? then, what’s really happening to her is she’s getting used to not believing in God and that’s why she seems more happy. But that sadness she felt at the beginning is indicative of how she felt being suddenly taken out of a relationship with God. It’s possible to get used to anything…doesn’t mean it is good for you. Even if she seems more happy, she’ll still carry around that empty feeling in her heart, but eventually she might get so used to it she’ll think it’s normal. I’m only saying this because I lived through this. I know what it feels like to live without God, and with God… and there IS a difference, even if a person is used to not believing, even if it feels normal to them. If they were to suddenly go back to faith, they would see there’s a difference. And when your girlfriend has sex with you, that does nothing to draw her closer to God…but what if this is what she needs? try to think of this long term not just short term…

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Emotion-based argument? No. Just based on what we were taught. YOU came here and asked what Catholics believe. Find ONE thing in all my posts detailing church teaching that is contrary to Catholic belief. I defy you to do that.

Actually no emotion involved. In fact, I’ve been accused of being cold and harsh. Just the facts. Letting emotion enter it, I would have patted you on the head and praised you for being noble and not two-timing her with the old girlfriend and protecting her from pregnancy. But that would have defied my moral code.

NO ONE here is badmouthing you. We’re just parrotting and describing what YOU told us your sexual practices were. IT DOES sound bad when looked at in the cold light of day, doesn’t it?

Sorry you don’t like what you heard. But it’s given you an appreciation of why her mother is so hostile to the whole thing. Just because she’s quiet now doesn’t mean she approves. Because you have proven you can “love” and sleep with someone for 2 years and then “uncommit” yourself. You can help yourself to the deepest levels of another human being and then satiated, walk away for good. There’s no good way to describe that.

A “committed” relationship doesn’t end. Or it’s not a commitment. Don’t you see the irony in that? The door is open. You’re free to leave. A ring and a marriage license is a commitment. And you’re sleeping with her in that temporary context. (Temporary does not equal maybe someday permanent, which doesn’t equal committed.) You never did tell me how you’d feel if you walked in on her and someone else, or… how about if she asked another guy to join you? At least we agree that sex is prone to deeper feelings and emotions. And it’s not just an activity.

You see, it’s not rules you hate. You seem to have more rules about sex than we Catholics do. One set for your pseudo-commitments and another rule for your one night stands. I only have two rules: Don’t have intercourse with someone I’m not married to, and don’t use artificial contraception.

No worries that someone I’m involved with casually might actually start taking me seriously and wanting to make it something more than it is… imagine that! (But that’s the way sex works, and often it’s the girl who becomes clingy because that’s how we are.)

If this girl needs you to be happy, what WILL you do if you decide in a year and a half that you aren’t “in love” anymore and it’s time to get rid of her and find someone “hotter.” (Your word)

See, what you call “nonsensical abuse” about your “sexual morality” is actually horror by people who don’t live by your “sexual morality” knowing the dangerous emotional and physical results from living a lifestyle like that. I think we are probably the first people you’ve talked to who seem to have any standards governing sex that don’t include “do what you want as long as you feel good.”

she explained how her views had developed to accept premarital sex.

Go back to your first post and realize your participation in that development of her views. When you thought it would be a good idea if she stopped believing in God.

You just don’t get what you did.

No, maybe you didn’t lead on your free and easy sex partners who were looking for a quick hookup. But you have an amazingly casual attitude about something that we Catholics do not view as amazingly casual.

Are you interested in more than sex? We wouldn’t know. Because mostly you talk about what amazing sex you have and her orgasms and you’ve told us when you do it. Yes, you did say you had interesting conversations. But you didn’t really respect her integrity. And just because she feels good now doesn’t mean what she’s doing is objectively good for her in the long run. A smoker might feel good, but that doesn’t mean every cigarette isn’t harming her in ways that are not immediately apparent.

You don’t base morality on feelings. No, our posts aren’t emotional. They’re not based on what we THINK or changing emotions about something. They’re based on the truth we’ve been taught as it was handed down for 2000 years of human experience.

continued

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Actually, you are disrespectful, narrow-minded, and guided by emotion. You claim I am basing my decisions purely on feelings. How about the string of emotionally motivated assumptions made to cast me in the most negative light possible? You have the nerve to makes these assumptions, and then you turn around and say I’m basing my decisions on emotions? What a joke.

You did not initially treat the teachings of our faith with respect when you worked to undermine them with your girlfriend. You are narrow-minded because you think those who follow Catholic morality are the wrong ones and that those who live without God are enlightened and it’s a “good thing” to live as you choose. No emotion here. We just don’t have that outlook. No assumptions either… just observations and conclusions based on what YOU described as your actions. You cast yourself in a negative light when you criticized her parents, when you boasted of your conquests and talked about her orgasms and your multiple partners. To some people that DOES look bad. Maybe not in your neck of the woods.

You are the one who prefaces all your choices with “I think” or “I don’t feel” or “If we both decided we didn’t love anymore” You run your life by emotion, not objective truth. Even your sexual behavior with virtual strangers is basically determined by whether the emotions of one changes after copulating and how to get out of a long-term entanglement if it becomes problematic emotionally. Not based on the objective morality of the act itself.

That might be acceptable if I left scores of crying women in my wake , but that is hardly the case (just one of your many assumptions). Interesting how weak and fragile women are in these made-up scenarios of yours btw.

Actually we were all worried about one particular crying depressed woman you left in your wake. The one you described as weak and fragile (Not OUR “made-up scenario.”)

Since you’ve never been a teenage girl, you don’t know that sometimes underneath that facade is a little girl just looking for love and approval that she may or may not have gotten at home, or that she’s seeking to replicate with a man like her father or the exact opposite of her father or a hundred other things. Don’t lecture me about teenage girls. I was one, I have daughters, all my friends were teenage girls, many of them have daughters. And yes, at that age, many are fragile. Like your gf, who is so fragile now she’s under a therapist’s care. Which she wasn’t before she met you. We can only draw our conclusions on the facts you share.

What other conclusion can you expect us to draw? Even your motivation for acting (and sleeping with her or not) is based on HER fragile emotions and how SHE is feeling at the moment. Tell us again how you’re not basing your decisions purely on feelings?

Most of your posts are a series of contradictory statements and justifications just like that.

Your gf didn’t appreciate her mother’s rantings. Guess what? Neither did I when I was a teenage girl. Funny how different life looks when you add children and years and responsibility. My mother could have written everything I did. Your GF’s mother also.

If you wanted insight into the Catholic faith, then what you have observed is it’s not a mush of “feel-good” emotionalism and spirituality based on doing what makes you “happy” at any given minute. Happiness is like chasing a butterfly. Very elusive. And what makes you happy at age 7 doesn’t do it for you at age 18 or 30 or 50 or 80. Morality doesn’t change. It’s not based on emotions. The guy who sees nothing wrong with having sex with a girl when he’s 18 often has a very different view of such things when he’s 45 and the girl is his daughter and some 18 year old boy is lurking around. Morality didn’t change. Just his appreciation of why some things are wrong changed. He saw the world from the other point of view.

We have spent 30+ pages trying to show you what the other point of view is. Catholicism isn’t for wimps. No, it’s not an easy religion, which accounts for why many young people drop out for a few years when they want to take the easy way. But it’s the true way. Which you may come to see in the years to come if you really wanted to look at it honestly.

For the most part you have been respectful. I’ll give you that. But just because a lot of jaded girls didn’t cry when you climbed out of their beds doesn’t make that lifestyle right or good. (Yes, they’re jaded to give themselves away like that to different people over and over. Don’t argue with me about that. You’re not a woman and don’t know how that goes.)

continued

 

[Liberanosamalo]

I bowed out of this conversation about 20 pages ago. Did not intend to return. Some more outlandish comments got my attention, though. I’ve said everything about this subject I care to. Sorry you don’t like the message or the messenger. Sorry if I don’t sugarcoat my thoughts about a lifestyle that is deeply degrading to everyone involved in ways they won’t understand till they look back on it in retrospect. So many of our world’s problems are because too many people view sex as a leisure activity and other people as something to use, have fun with, leave, or fall out of love with. THAT is worse than “nonsensical abuse.” It’s a tragedy that has ruined families and broken hearts. Your story isn’t over. You can’t guarantee a happy ending for yourself or your GF. So please don’t lecture when people say that often stories like yours end predictably and very sadly. And it will be more sad for her than for you, because you were her one and only. She is your one of several/many.

You’re used to it. You’ll move on and survive. She has no life experience to guide her in breaking up with the only person she has ever had sex with.

You should be a little bit afraid for your own future and hers and the possibilities. And a little less angry at us for describing the scenario based on much more life experience than you have had.

Go in peace. I’m done.

 

[Liberanosamalo]

I think you would have a strong natural law argument against things like friends with benefits and threesomes, but not against exclusive love relationships.

Flyingfish, as many posters here and even P would have to admit, the problem with non-marital so-called “exclusive” love relationships is they are exclusive only until they are not exclusive any more. And you can’t see it while you’re in it that they are not going to last. Until they are ending.

They are not permanent. By their very nature they are only a reflection of what one or both “intend,” which may change after a month, a year, a few years.

How many posts have there been about people shacking up in an “exclusive” relationship, only to find that when it comes time to be married, one of the parties wasn’t as exclusive as they had led on to be. And it was really more one-sided than that. That one person viewed it more as a friends with benefits thing. And the other deluded themselves that this was enduring and exclusive. When the two viewpoints collide with reality, someone’s heart is broken. And someone has to find a new place to live.

Walking down the aisle removes a lot of that doubt. Both have to sign on the dotted line.

Even that is problematic as intent can be muddy and God knows my annulment was based on someone else’s shoddy idea of “permanent.”

The problem with natural law is that our mind and bodies can’t tell the difference between a sacramental marriage and a love relationship

I beg to differ. I know our minds can tell the difference. In a marriage there isn’t the doubt and uncertainty that a mere love relationship has. Or there shouldn’t be. Doubt and uncertainty is what love relationships thrive on. Those couples don’t want to marry because that commitment might “ruin” everything. Meaning: No escape = let me out of here now! Some like the “option to leave” the relationship and that’s why people like George Clooney don’t marry. And if it didn’t really matter so much, why do so many women pressure men to marry them if there was no real difference?

I think there is a difference, based on the experience of many people I talked to. Even physically they say sex is “different” in marriage. And before marriage they’d tell you there was no difference and it was okay as long as you were in a “love” relationship.

Go back to those people after they’ve found someone who loved them enough to marry them and ask them THEN if their premarital encounters are still okay and if they didn’t regret it knowing what they know now. And if they had to do it over, would they wait.

Lots would want a do-over. Lots are sorry they mistook a temporary feeling of love for the real thing and gave themselves to someone who didn’t love them as much as their spouse did. Lots see the premarital sex as playacting compared to the real thing.

But that’s something you can only see in retrospect. Life does look very different in the rearview mirror.

 

[Joseph_L_Varga]

Persuader, I’m willing to have an intellectual discussion with your gf if you invite her here. My thesis is this: if you want to know whether God exists, you should not go based on your feelings. Whether God exists or not, is not based on whether I feel him. The thing is somewhat complicated by the fact that God chose not to come to a plenary meeting of the UN and reveal himself like that. God chose this very strange thing - when Jesus was born, he sent some angels who appeared to a bunch of shepherds, some simple people, on the outskirts of Jerusalem. The shepherds saw these luminous, supernatural beings, and the angels told them to go find this baby, in a poor manger, in a stable with oxen and donkeys, and they went and worshipped him. You see, God didn’t send the angels to the Sanhedrin of Jerusalem (the council of 70 leaders of Israel made up of the chief priest and other big shots), and they totally missed the big event that they were waiting for for hundreds of years, they missed the birth of their “anointed one” (=Messiah), which was foretold by prophets hundreds of years before. I don’t know why, but this is how God operates. Also, just to take the apparition of Holy Mary in Fatima, Portugal, in 1917, only three children of ages 10, 9, and 7 saw her. But in this case there were a series of public miracles culminating in a most dramatic one, on October 13, 1917, which was foretold on July 13, so that an estimated 70,000 people showed up to see what was promised to occur at noon on Oct 13. And, as promised, something supernatural happened - the sun was dancing in the sky, and this was photographed by several journalists and carried by the newspapers of Lisbon. You see, trying to deny this is like trying to deny that the national soccer team of Hungary beat England 6-3 in 1953, in the Wembley stadium of London. It was seen by tens of thousands, photographed, carried in the newspapers. Same thing. God has shown enough signs for us to know that he exists.

Why is this important? I own a Mazda, and I use the instruction manual that the makers of that car provided. God is our maker, and he provided his instruction manual, too, in order for us to be safe, happy, and have eternal life. That instruction manual deals with sexuality in detail, and this is what it says: stay abstinent, or else marry and be faithful to your wife/husband.

And God’s truth is very “intolerant” and “aristocratic”, like any other truth. Intolerant just like 8 by 7 is 56, never 55, 57, or some other number. There’s just one correct answer regarding how to use our sexuality, the one provided by God. It’s also aristocratic in the sense that not everybody will come to possess it. In the 1950s there were a handful of scientists who suspected that the brain produces hormones that control various functions of the body through an effect on the pituitary gland. Two (2) scientists put in some 20 years of work while most others were skeptical and wouldn’t “waste” their time on something like that. Finally, these 2 scientists (Schally and Guillemin) found the truth, discovered those hormones, and got the Nobel prize. For all those years while they were the only ones searching for this truth, they must have felt lonely. Then, when they first isolated the hypothalamic hormones, they were the only two people on planet earth who possessed this truth. This is what I mean by the aristocratic nature of truth. God revealed his truths through the Bible and through the Church, but he chose not to appear in a visible way to everyone. Yet, he also promised, “you will find me when you will search for me with all your heart”. I’m a happy man today - I searched for God with all my heart, and I found him indeed. I know today that God exists, and I experienced that following his commandments as taught by the Church brings happiness.

I feel for your gf who doubts the existence of God, and I will try to help her if she comes online. The other posters will also try to help her. But, LOL, be prepared that we will tell her too, to stop premarital sex.

 

[flyingfish]

I beg to differ. I know our minds can tell the difference. In a marriage there isn’t the doubt and uncertainty that a mere love relationship has.

I was talking more about the biological desire for sex, and the sensation of it being right. Not the intellectual awareness of the differences. On that level people are in love, they feel like they want to be with this person forever, it feels a lot like marriage and it’s natural that it should given how love changes brain chemistry.

Of course marriage is different, and people want marriage for different reasons. Some want it to formalize the permanent commitment, some people want it for legal reasons (women especially might want it for the security in the event of children, alimony in the case of a divorce and the like), some for religious reasons.