Relationship in the gutter.

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I have really enjoyed this thread and am gripped by Persuader’s story. I don’t know if it’s true or not - but even if it is not literally true it speaks to the experience of many young people.

As for use of language, I’m British and live in the UK. I often use American English (including colloquialisms) online as it ‘feels’ right to do so and most of the posters here and on the only other site I post on are American. I mentioned ‘asap’ to a Russian from Moscow who has English as a second language - he knew exactly what it meant and he uses it, along with fyi, in his correspondance and emails.
 
It’s just an opinion 🤷. I haven’t lived in the UK for a long time now and the language there is constantly changing and absorbing many Americanisms. I was startled when I was back to visit to hear people say “he’s hot” and “she’s hot” which was a purely American term before I left, and was new to me when I came to the states. Of course chat boards and social networking sites have also exploded in the last 15 years so who knows?

This still doesn’t pass the smell test for me however.

Who knows the motivation for this discussion if it is not a real situation? You never know who might be affected by this thread, including Persuader - after all so many people have been praying for him!
 
A couple, for a good reason ,say spacing their children apart,health reasons,economic etc,can if they wish have intercourse outside the fertile times-it is a God given loving gift which God bestows on married couples.A person on artificial contraception might claim, well we are achieving the same result-no pregnancy, so what is the difference between the two.
I have for example a bag of $10,000 in my right hand which I got cashing a cheque in payment for work.In my left hand is a bag containing $10000,this I got from robbing a bank.Both hands contain the same amount of money,look at each note-all legal tender,so what is the difference?I could buy the same things with each bundle of money,so I cannot see what your problem is,correct.But you would say-one is the right way of obtaining it and the other is the wrong way.This example can be applied also to IVF, remember this when next time you see an IVF child paraded in a womans’ publication!Look at the child ,see the wonderful result-- are we not so clever,therefore they conclude, how could such a "miracle baby"be wrong.(not the baby’s fault,he or she is the innocent party-God always honours His part in creation,breathing in a soul) What is scientifically possible is not always morally right.Now apply this principle to relationships-The right way leads to God,the wrong way always leads to the gutter!Big difference!
Thank you God The Creator for giving us, mere humans ,a co-sharing in the creation of another human person,who will live forever.Amen
 
Persuader said:
Something has happened, and I don’t know what to think. :confused: You people will probably be pleased, though…

My gf ambushed me today with an ultimatum. She said that I were to suggest a timeline for marriage before we go to celebrate Christmas or else! That’s by the end of the week! 😦 Apparently she had a transformative, religious experience (theosis?) through prayer. I am absolutely shell shocked… I tried to reason with her, but she wouldn’t listen to me. She told me she needed me to show my commitment to our relationship (what is this nonsense?! We’ve been together for less than 10 months!). Then she gave me a list of ground-rules and requests, kissed me and left! I have never felt so confused or conflicted in my entire life… :confused:

I haven’t decided if I will call her on her bluff or not. Even though she put up a strong front today, I am not certain she will see it through. I don’t think she will leave me anyway. Deciding on marriage by 20? That’s hard. If I didn’t love her so much, I would kick her to the curb for putting me in this position. Ultimatums are for children. :mad:

I have gotten sound advice from some friends about the non-religious stuff, but I really need your help with this list. Is there religious reasons for what she is saying, and how do they relate to the fact that I am only her partner, and not actually catholic myself (I remember some of you said that condoms were fine since I was not a catholic)? Here is the ground-rules:

A: No more sex before marriage.
B: She will not use contraceptives (she apparently made an appointment to remove the Implanon).

These are the requests:
  1. No porn.
  2. No condoms.
  3. I accompany her to some kind of introduction/instruction (I’m unsure about the exact word) at church (do you know what this could be?). (I will ask her more about what this is when she will talk to me)
  4. I accompany her to a charity.
I need to find out about this asap, so I can decide what to do about it. I only have a few days to decide. Thanks in advance.
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Well, I’ve always sensed that she was a pretty strong and somewhat controlling personality. She seems to have found a way out of her dilemma. Marriage is usually the “next level” of relationship these women desire. It’s been often said that “Women use sex to get love.” I think as much as you like to think you control everything with this relationship, you are finding you don’t. 10 months is a long time given how quickly you started a sexual relationship. I know of a few relationships like this that made the leap to marriage way sooner than 10 months.

Now should you agree to marriage at this point, and you decide that going into it divorce is a future option, you aren’t really committing to the relationship. Again, I ask. What is this committed relationship to which you reference?

If she did actually get the help she needed to get out of her funk, this is likely the type of advice she was given. And Christmas is an excellent time to desire an engagement ring. You may think she hasn’t been listening to her Mother lately, but I can assure you she’s listened to her for 19 years. Some of it has certainly sunk in.

As for being a troll, I don’t know. Others have posted some pretty wild stories here over a period of time. And then they disappear. Based upon what outrageous things are in the press about celebrities, our government leaders and those on Jerry Springer, I’m not surprised about any story I see here. If I’m a sucker, so be it.

Many years ago, the point of control of a “shotgun wedding” was that the father carried the shotgun. My experience is that the women themselves now will carry the gun if they find it in their interest. Seems to me that she’s planning on a relatively long engagement unless you are close to graduation.

BTW, there is a six month premarital instruction period provided by the church for engaged couples. This might be the instruction she is thinking about. You wouldn’t happen to be graduating in June, would you?

I still suggest you get the Real Love book that I suggested, and I still recommend it to anyone in College to understand what is proper and what is not as far as relational behavior. It will answer a lot of your questions even though you think you know all the answers, already.

Well, persuader, you seem to be in the same situation as the guy that has the tiger by the tail. If you truly cared for and were committed to this woman, marriage wouldn’t be so frightening. And if you didn’t want the sex so much, leaving the relationship wouldn’t be such a problem either. You could part as “friends” and leave it at that. See. Sex “complicates” uncommitted relationships. As we’ve been trying to tell you.

You have two choices at this point.
  1. You tell her you don’t love her, aren’t in love with her and are sorry to have given her that impression. Then run like heck, and hope she can’t track you down,
    or
  2. get use to saying “Yes, dear.”
Oh, BTW… pleased? Not really. I think you both do not have the proper formation of conscience nor circumstances to go forward with or from this relationship. I don’t know that either of you have properly learned from this exercise. It’s a bad situation and it will only lead to another bad situation in the future unless you get your priorities straight.
 
newbetx said:
Well, persuader, you seem to be in the same situation as the guy that has the tiger by the tail.
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😃

All your wishes came true, Persuader. You said you wanted her to find her faith again, and be happy and full of life like she used to be. It seems to me your gf just made a giant leap in that direction. You better rejoice now, Persuader. 😛 And get on your knees and pray to God for wisdom, even if you don’t believe in him. God still loves you and will give you the wisdom you need, just ask him. 👍 😃
 
Dear Persuader,
Best wishes to you and your gf.
Persuader said:
These are the requests:
  1. No porn.
    …
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I know it’s not the main topic of your thread, but this request is a good idea even from a non-religious, good-for-society point of view.

This is a link to a thread started by buffalo called “New Study: The effects of pornography on individuals, marriage, family and community”
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=406739
which in turn links to the actual report at
ccv.org/downloads/pdf/The_Effects_of_Pornography.pdf
(This is a report prepared for the Family Research Council and posted on the website of “Citizens for Community Values” in Ohio, which is affiliated with Focus on the Family.)

After reading the report, it seems to be written and researched quite well, and contains extensive references to published psychological and sociological studies. It includes quite a bit of data about the negative effects on partners and families. Any person who loves their spouse or gf would probably not want to put them into that risk category.

Peace to all,
  • curl
 
Persuader said:
Something has happened, and I don’t know what to think. :confused: You people will probably be pleased, though…

My gf ambushed me today with an ultimatum. She said that I were to suggest a timeline for marriage before we go to celebrate Christmas or else! That’s by the end of the week! 😦 Apparently she had a transformative, religious experience (theosis?) through prayer. I am absolutely shell shocked… I tried to reason with her, but she wouldn’t listen to me. She told me she needed me to show my commitment to our relationship (what is this nonsense?! We’ve been together for less than 10 months!). Then she gave me a list of ground-rules and requests, kissed me and left! I have never felt so confused or conflicted in my entire life… :confused:

I haven’t decided if I will call her on her bluff or not. Even though she put up a strong front today, I am not certain she will see it through. I don’t think she will leave me anyway. Deciding on marriage by 20? That’s hard. If I didn’t love her so much, I would kick her to the curb for putting me in this position. Ultimatums are for children. :mad:

I have gotten sound advice from some friends about the non-religious stuff, but I really need your help with this list. Is there religious reasons for what she is saying, and how do they relate to the fact that I am only her partner, and not actually catholic myself (I remember some of you said that condoms were fine since I was not a catholic)? Here is the ground-rules:

A: No more sex before marriage.
B: She will not use contraceptives (she apparently made an appointment to remove the Implanon).

These are the requests:
  1. No porn.
  2. No condoms.
  3. I accompany her to some kind of introduction/instruction (I’m unsure about the exact word) at church (do you know what this could be?). (I will ask her more about what this is when she will talk to me)
  4. I accompany her to a charity.
I need to find out about this asap, so I can decide what to do about it. I only have a few days to decide. Thanks in advance.
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Praise be to GOD! He is so GOOD! Listen your girlfriend is serious. I suggest you take this very seriously. If you cannot do these requests then you have to leave because you will foster resent in her. Even if she doesn’t leave you right away (due to her being attached), she will begin to resent you and eventually your relationship end in pain and suffering. Don’t hurt her anymore she is probably hurt that you watch porn. Porn is an addictive problem in society and it makes people perverted and makes them objectify other humans. Read Christopher West’s book on The Good News about Sex. I have been in this exact situation and I know. It is better that you be truly honest with yourself and her. Decide if you are really willing to commit to her and to commit to give up “premarital sex, porn and contraceptives”. If you love your girlfriend you wouldn’t lose her over these temporal things. And if you sacrifice for her I believe you will see the Love of God throughout the rest of your life.

If you decide to stay with her and give up on your old ways be prepared for it to take time to heal her. Whether it is good or not most women have a sense that someday they are going to meet a good, faithful man who will only have eyes for them. She probably trusted you were such. But you tarnished her image of you. Which is normal because no one is perfect but the porn usage is so painful for women. Even if we understand its intrigue and addictive nature.

Good Luck I will pray for you both.
 
flyingfish said:
I don’t understand why you are so hateful toward Persuader. He has expressed again and again that he loves his girlfriend.

If he was using her for sex, I doubt he would be posting on a Catholic forum asking Catholics for advice about how to help her with depression over losing faith.

People are not so black and white, plenty of good people have sex before marriage. Most people nowadays have sex before marriage. Those who wait are few and far between. Are they all evil people just using each other for sex?

There are far worse sins than premarital sex, sins of the flesh are some of the least bad sins. Plenty worse things that have to do with a lack of charity, pride, hatefulness and the like.

It’s really beyond me why nearly everyone focuses on sexual sins almost to the exclusion of all else, as though sexual sins are the worst kinds of sins.
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I disagree. I think sexual sin is a spiritual sin and I believe that God despises it more than eating too much or smoking cigarettes. It is also committing adultery on your husband or wife if it is premarital. I read a paper by the Vatican that said God particularly despises sexual sin I will look for it for you. I know men have a harder time with this but I think that is because it is easier for a man to become numb when society constantly objectifies women.
 
Jesuslives said:
I disagree. I think sexual sin is a spiritual sin and I believe that God despises it more than eating too much or smoking cigarettes. It is also committing adultery on your husband or wife if it is premarital. I read a paper by the Vatican that said God particularly despises sexual sin I will look for it for you. I know men have a harder time with this but I think that is because it is easier for a man to become numb when society constantly objectifies women.
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The Scriptures has a great deal of stories where people are killed because of improper sexual relations. Not many stories on people eating badly or not taking care of their health as reasons for death in the Scriptures. I’m guessing plenty of people had bad health habits. Though I do remember there were prohibitions on food for cleanliness. However, those did not seem to merit death unlike sexual sins did.
 
Liberanosamalo

As for your analogy about sunscreen, do you hear yourself? ABC and the pill are SO invasive and altering of the woman’s body that her very psyche is changed radically to get her to desire a different kind of man than she’d choose if she wasn’t chemically altered. And yet you don’t think hormones powerful enough to do this have any effect on her???

Could you please give the study or articles where you get the information regarding a woman’s “psyche” being altered and that she’ll choose a different kind of man due to birth control pills?? I would be VERY interested to read that as I’ve heard it as a “rumor” but never actually seen any study done.
God Bless
Thanks
Rye
 
So I got the stomach flu yesterday (still pretty sick). Fortunately, it proved itself a mixed blessing since my gf came over. We had some good conversation, and have decided on how to move forward. I have agreed to try to go church, and join a charity. As far as the sex goes, we will take a break.

We’ll see how it goes over the next couple of months, and if things are looking good, I will propose on our anniversary.

As far as suspicions of me being a troll, I’m a little surprised. I would think a troll would be more confrontational. I think I have been very polite, especially considering the abuse I have been getting from many of you. Your points on my English is a bit strange. It might’ve been the case that British English was preferred in the educational system before, but now I don’t think so. Coupled with all the other influences (TV, internet, music, books etc.), you would be hard pressed to find someone who doesn’t write in a more American way. When it comes to the internet/SMS lingo, I’m surprised that you do not know how widespread it is. Knowing internet lingo for people my age is a given.

So why did I choose a forum like this? The reason I am here is simple. If you take a look at religion in Scandinavia, you will quickly notice how few Catholics there are. If there were many, I would be more inclined to contact them, but it is difficult seeing how they mostly know each other, and I would have to visit a different big city to insure I meet any catholic priest not known by my gf. And even that would be a risk since they mingle at gatherings and such. Too much of a hassle.

What’s the point of excessively showing my emotions on an internet forum? I am not here for emotional support. I cannot really prove who I am or where I am from, short of giving away my identity or let you ping my IP-address. If you have a way, you could test me in any of the following Scandinavian languages: Swedish, Norwegian or Danish. They are similar, and I understand all of them.

I don’t have the energy to argue over this given my bad case of the flu. So you do what you like. I feel things are more resolved in my relationship now anyway, so it’s not so important anymore.

PS: To the English chap: Hey, I’m a Liverpool-fan. Sorry state of affairs, wouldn’t you say? Those damn Yanks!
 
I’m sorry that you are suffering with stomach flu. I’m trying to get over H1N1 and its complications at the moment. Personally, I’m a Coventry City foootball supporter (my home city); although I’m much more interested in Tennis and am a really big supporter of Andy Murray.

I have to say that the quality of your writing is excellent. You write in an engaging and fluent way that is refreshing to find on an internet forum.

Anyway, I hope that all goes well with you and those in your life.
 
Persuader said:
So I got the stomach flu yesterday (still pretty sick). Fortunately, it proved itself a mixed blessing since my gf came over. We had some good conversation, and have decided on how to move forward. I have agreed to try to go church, and join a charity. As far as the sex goes, we will take a break.

We’ll see how it goes over the next couple of months, and if things are looking good, I will propose on our anniversary.

As far as suspicions of me being a troll, I’m a little surprised. I would think a troll would be more confrontational. I think I have been very polite, especially considering the abuse I have been getting from many of you. Your points on my English is a bit strange. It might’ve been the case that British English was preferred in the educational system before, but now I don’t think so. Coupled with all the other influences (TV, internet, music, books etc.), you would be hard pressed to find someone who doesn’t write in a more American way. When it comes to the internet/SMS lingo, I’m surprised that you do not know how widespread it is. Knowing internet lingo for people my age is a given.

So why did I choose a forum like this? The reason I am here is simple. If you take a look at religion in Scandinavia, you will quickly notice how few Catholics there are. If there were many, I would be more inclined to contact them, but it is difficult seeing how they mostly know each other, and I would have to visit a different big city to insure I meet any catholic priest not known by my gf. And even that would be a risk since they mingle at gatherings and such. Too much of a hassle.

What’s the point of excessively showing my emotions on an internet forum? I am not here for emotional support. I cannot really prove who I am or where I am from, short of giving away my identity or let you ping my IP-address. If you have a way, you could test me in any of the following Scandinavian languages: Swedish, Norwegian or Danish. They are similar, and I understand all of them.

I don’t have the energy to argue over this given my bad case of the flu. So you do what you like. I feel things are more resolved in my relationship now anyway, so it’s not so important anymore.

PS: To the English chap: Hey, I’m a Liverpool-fan. Sorry state of affairs, wouldn’t you say? Those damn Yanks!
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Persuader! WELCOME then. I hope God blesses you both. Read some of Pope John Paul’s writings on the marriage relationship they are quite beautiful.
 
Jesuslives said:
Persuader! WELCOME then. I hope God blesses you both. Read some of Pope John Paul’s writings on the marriage relationship they are quite beautiful.
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I concur. Blessed Pope John Paul II is a brilliant thinker. One of the best analysis of the mind I have ever seen. And he is even better when it comes to the heart. The recent popes have all been amazing, but check him out. He’s quite in tune to this generation of youths that seek love, truth, and joy.

Here are a few of his works. He wrote volumes and volumes of material so you can probably find more than enough to read if he perks your brain.

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2TBIND.HTM
This one in particular is about marriage and how Catholics understand it. It’s excerpts, since this series of homilies and lectures ranges over 700 talks over 5 years.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_jp-ii_exh_20030628_ecclesia-in-europa_en.html
This one is an exhortation on the Church in Europe.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/homilies/2000/documents/hf_jp-ii_hom_20000910_jubi-univ-teachers_en.html
This one is the Jubilee of Professors during the Year of Jubilees.

In case you want other works from the late great pope, here is the directory. It has multiple languages for you to choose from as well.
 
So, I attended mass with my gf today (with the aftereffects of stomach flu and a proper hangover). It was a strange experience, not entirely unpleasant, but quite boring at times. When entering, you were supposed to wet your fingers in a water bowl, and cross yourself. I did that (awkwardly). Afterwards it was a lot of standing up. And then down, and then up again. Apparently, they couldn’t decide what they wanted. 😛 Obviously, I didn’t receive communion or anything like that, but as far as I understood it, Catholics actually believe that the bread and wine turns into the blood and body of Christ. I have to say that I find that a bit silly.

After the mass, there was church coffee (is that normal?), and I was introduced to some people. The people were pleasant enough, even the priest. I didn’t receive the evil eye as far as I could tell. However, my gf was prancing about a little too smug for my liking. I think I need to take her down a notch or two (too bad sex isn’t on the table anymore). When the thing was finally over, I was exhausted. At least it pleased my gf, but I don’t know if I want to do this again. Just doesn’t make any sense to me. I don’t know how will I survive doing this with her family for
Christmas. :eek: Just thinking about it makes my stomach churn. God, help me! (don’t get excited, it’s just an expression)… If there is some non-believer in similar shoes, I would appreciate some advice.

Oh, and one thing I was wondering about:

My gf told me about how she regained her faith. As I said earlier, she went to see a psychologist about her loss of faith. The psychologist gave her some meditation exercises to get in touch with her spirituality. Clearly, it worked. Now, I think I have a pretty good explanation for why it worked, but I am reluctant to share it with my gf. I don’t want to ruin her good mood. Let me give it to you, just to gauge it’s potential for damage.

Obviously, her spirituality is entangled with her religious faith. She has, after all, grown up with the catholic faith. Because of this, she will associate her spiritual experiences with the religious dogmas she has been taught. Or more precisely, her spirituality will have specific, religious content. If you look at the experiments with the god helmet (google it), this hypothesis seems quite uncontroversial. You could say that the content or religious faith is really not supported by her spirituality. If she had been taught a different set of dogmas, she would associate them with her spirituality, and see that as confirmation of her beliefs when it really isn’t.
 
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