Relatively few catholics prefer the TLM

[Just_1_hr_a_wk]

Yep. It’s a monarchy. With Christ as the King. And he has invested his Vicar with authority to bind and loose.

And that Vicar says that the TLM was never abrogated. And he says that all priests have the authority to offer it. And all of the faithful have the right to request it.

As much as that fact seems to eat at you and as much as you seem to dislike his decisions the fact remains that they are his decisions to make.

Get over it.

James

Saying it has never been abrogated is not the same as making it all an open choice - especially NOT one for the laity.*

 

[James0235]

No such choice existed when I was a teenager in high school and an altar boy during the little over two years it took us to transition from the TLM to the NO.

The point was that the Holy Father says the legally there was a choice. The 1962 Missal was never abrogated and was always lawful.

In practice many bishops refused to allow it in their dioceses saying that it was abrogated. But as the Holy Father says the TLM** “was never juridically abrogated and, consequently, in principle, was always permitted.”

**James

 

[BenFischer]

I’m confused. I’ve watched Mass on EWTN many times. Their daily Mass is still the Novus Ordo, though with many Latin responses, like mine. Am I missing something?

John

The Novus Ordo can be celebrated in Latin, just like it can be celebrated in any other language. There’s a parish in my diocese that has a Latin NO mass every Sunday. I guess the EWTN would be a hybrid between all English and all Latin.

 

[JW10631]

It seems some people feel quite threatened about the return of the Mass according to the 1962 Missal. Why they feel threatened about it, I can’t say.

Of course, here in the USA, we speak English, and any other language is to be SCORNED. After all, Latin is dead, and there’s always someone to drag up the old quote about how Latin killed off the Roman Empire, and now it’s killing me.

Well, break out the Pampers and the baby wipes. Latin can be used for medicine, law and science, but not worship?

I like the T-shirt - “Don’t worry. Satan hates Latin, too!”

Are there really that many people who love holding hands during the Our Father, who love handing out Communion, and singing Marty Haugen’s Greatest Hymns?

Maybe they are bothered with the idea of wearing somehting other than blue jeans, a t-shirt and Nikes to Mass.

The Latin Mass and Latin in its entirety was ditched right before I started Catholic School. We got to sing wonderful songs like “God Mixes with Man” and the unforgettable Terry Jacks’ top-40 hit “Seasons in the Sun” during Mass, along with our felt banners. Such wonderful catechesis my parents paid for!

And look at the fruits! Declining vocations, ugly church buildings that look like college lecture halls inside, Marty Haugen, Bob Dufford, *O Flowing River, *yeah, it was so important to get rid of the Mass that was celebrated when the Spanish, Portugese and French evangelized 2/3 of the Western Hemisphere. It was so much better to have every Tom, Richard and Harriet hand out Communion than it was when we used an altar rail at Mass - such as when King Jan Sobieski and his Polish Hussars routed the Muslim Turks on September 11, 1683 - or when Queen Isabella attended Holy Mass in Granada on January 2, 1492 - the day Spain completed its 791-year Reconquest.

What an awful thing it is that some of us actually prefer the Mass as it was for centuries - celebrated among so many different cultures, in so many different countries.

If the Latin Mass threatens YOU - maybe it should.

 

[pnewton]

It seems some people feel quite threatened about the return of the Mass according to the 1962 Missal

I do not know why it would threaten anyone. It’s not like one can’t find a Mass in English. This is unlikely to change.

 

[universalindult]

It seems some people feel quite threatened about the return of the Mass according to the 1962 Missal. Why they feel threatened about it, I can’t say.

They don’t like it, and they fear it will replace their preferred vernacular mass. So its not enough to just be magnanimous towards those who prefer the TLM. They feel that, out of a sense of self-preservation and self-interest, they need to oppose and deride the TLM.

As to whether “few Catholics prefer the TLM,” I suspect that honest polling of those who grew up with the TLM will consistently find that 5 to 15% desire a return to it.

I suspect that a polling of weekly mass attending Catholics will find that 2 to 5% of the general Catholic population desires access to the TLM.

I suspect that these numbers will grow with time, not shrink. Practicing Catholics try to be obedient and do not usually resist their pastors and bishops. Their pastors and bishops have told them for 40 years that they were being “bad” or “disobedient” Catholics if they openly expressed a desire for a return of the TLM.

Now that they can no longer be coerced into believing they are being “bad” or “disobedient” Catholics if they openly express a desire for the TLM, they will start expressing that desire. But it will take a little while longer yet before the stigma of that desire (rightfully) fades, so the demand for the TLM will build slowly.

The Cardinals, bishops, and priests held that stigma over the heads of Catholics for 40 years, and it has only been lifted for 3 months. You cannot expect the laity to know they have this right when Cardinals, bishops, and priests openly continue to try to undermine Summorum Pontificum, and you cannot accept at face value the claims, by the same Cardinals, bishops, and priests, that there is no demand for the TLM and none to be forthcoming.

By the way, if only 2 to 5% of American Catholics desire the TLM at present, that is still between 1 and 3 million of the most committed Catholics in the Church.

Those today who are self-described as “conservative Catholics” will almost all be TLM attending Catholics in 10 to 20 years. That is the natural trajectory of those honestly seeking truth and holiness.

 

[pnewton]

I think I would like to challenge the basic premise here. Not the future predictions, which I find hard to swallow, but the basic idea that anyone is afraid of the TLM. So I ask in this large forum of Catholics, is one, even one person afraid of the TLM?

 

[Seamus_L]

I’m not a 100 pct against mass in the vernacular, and I’ve even seen it done reverently in a few churches, but I also someday hope to see mass in the vernacular become as rare as Latin currently is.
Of course the vast majority of people who attend mass now prefer the vernacular, but then again they also prefer not going to confession, not saying the rosary, not fasting etc.

 

[brotherhrolf]

The point was that the Holy Father says the legally there was a choice. The 1962 Missal was never abrogated and was always lawful.

In practice many bishops refused to allow it in their dioceses saying that it was abrogated. But as the Holy Father says the TLM** “was never juridically abrogated and, consequently, in principle, was always permitted.”**

James

And I would respectfully reply to the HF that the transition from the TLM to the NO was a “fait accompli”. If it weren’t, why didn’t Paul VI step in?

 

[ac_claire]

The point was that the Holy Father says the legally there was a choice. The 1962 Missal was never abrogated and was always lawful.

In practice many bishops refused to allow it in their dioceses saying that it was abrogated. But as the Holy Father says the TLM** “was never juridically abrogated and, consequently, in principle, was always permitted.”**James

I don’t understand:
The priests, etc. who told the laity that the TLM was illlegal back then…Did they truly believe that was true or were they purposefully misleading?

And is this quote from B16 the first time that anyone’s pointed out that the old mass was never outlawed?

Thanks!

 

[brotherhrolf]

Do I absolutely positively have to have the TLM? No. I would be happy with a reverently celebrated NO like I saw on EWTN on All Saints Day - in Latin and in English. I don’t want to see my heritage (read tradition) as a Catholic thrown out, diiscarded, and trampled underfoot which is precisely what has happened since 1970. If the question was phrased differently what a shocking answer might be given. We threw out most of our traditions in 1970 in an effort to make the Mass more relevant.

If the question was something along the lines of “How many Catholics regret the loss of our traditions?” , what kind of answer would we get?

 

[jflare29]

Quote:
“The Novus Ordo can be celebrated in Latin, just like it can be celebrated in any other language. There’s a parish in my diocese that has a Latin NO mass every Sunday. I guess the EWTN would be a hybrid between all English and all Latin.”
(Sorry everyone, I haven’t yet mastered the text editing methods on this site.)

I think I misunderstood your original intent; I thought you meant that one could view a TLM on EWTN routinely, which surprised me because the Mass I’ve seen is definitely an NO. I thought maybe you were catching programming at a different time or something.

I don’t know what to think about the TLM to be honest with you. I’m not happy with the 1 year cycle of readings because I think we do benefit a great deal from hearing most, if not all, of the Bible over three years. On the other hand, I’m less familiar with the TLM, so I’m much more comfortable with the NO by default. While I’m not convinced that I’d like to see it come back to replace the NO, if I married, had kids, and raised them with the TLM, they likely wouldn’t suffer from my…discomfort.

Ultimately, I’d be much happier if we’d settle on one Rite, ensure that it’s as reverent as it should be, and got on with life.
(Oh…wait…I’m told that what the Council intended in the first place…)
Maybe we can eventually re-merge the two as people become better acquainted with the traditional intent??

Here’s hoping!

John

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

I don’t understand:
The priests, etc. who told the laity that the TLM was illlegal back then…Did they truly believe that was true or were they purposefully misleading?

And is this quote from B16 the first time that anyone’s pointed out that the old mass was never outlawed?

Thanks!

Well, legally the TLM was never abrogated but the impression was definitely given that the NO was to replace the TLM period. And pretty much all the bishops and priests implemented that. I don’t necessarily think they were being misleading, perhaps they did not even realize it had not been officially abrogated. Nevertheless I think many were probably happy to get rid of the TLM and go with this new relevant Mass. Plus people often naturally like whatever is easier.

I believe it was Pope John Paul II who commissioned 10 Cardinals (including Cardinal Ratzinger) to do a study to find out if the TLM had ever officially been abrogated. The answer from 9 out of 10 Cardinals was that no, it had not been abrogated. However, pressure was put on the Pope not to officially release those results.

 

[Milliardo]

A priest who is a resident at our parish wrote in a letter to our county paper claiming that the religion writer for our paper was right about the TLM being allowed more. He also stated correctly how that a local SSPX group was not in connection with Rome. But where I disagreed was where he cited some poll saying that more people preferred the pauline rite and that “relatively few” prferred to attend the TLM. The same priest has also claimed multiple times in our parish bulletin that few people understood latin so that is why they got rid of the TLM. Does it ever end? Maybe few people actually prefer it because many never experienced it.

That is correct–many don’t prefer it because many have not experienced it. I think if people experienced it, then there would be an informed choice, and thus people will be able to choose what they prefer in a better way.

 

[AlexV]

The bottom line usually is, people were lied to…intentionally or unintentionally.

I remember bringing a Missal to school to show my religion teacher (Catholic nun). I had found it at home…St. Joseph’s, 1961. The nun almost suffered apoplexy then and there. She ranted such as I have never seen about how “We don’t do that anymore! Vatican II changed all that! Do you want Father to face the wall and mumble?”

In other words, the Pol Pot School of chronology…everything began at Vatican II, and everything from before must be repudiated and vilified.

In 1990, the cardinal archbishop of a major American city said in print that the “Holy Father was shocked” that people were bringing children to 1962 Masses, since he had only meant the permission of 1988 for those who were both alive and adult in 1962 (which would be bizarre, for starters…I mean, it would imply that the Holy See felt you could deal with the Novus Ordo from 1962 to 1988, but not afterwards).

Very quickly, the Ecclesia Dei Commission issued a statement saying that no, sorry, there is NO AGE LIMIT on the 1988 permissions. But wouldn’t you know it? Until the very present day, some Catholics…even prelates…have tried to argue that if you had no experience of this liturgy before Vatican II, or no affilitation with the SSPX, that it’s not for you.

More deceit, in other words, intentional or unintentional. Some opponents of this liturgy are indeed malicious. Others are just ignorant…and they wield their ignorance like a sword.

 

[universalindult]

The bottom line usually is, people were lied to…intentionally or unintentionally. …
More deceit, in other words, intentional or unintentional. Some opponents of this liturgy are indeed malicious. Others are just ignorant…and they wield their ignorance like a sword.

Well said.

 

[Beret]

A priest who is a resident at our parish wrote in a letter to our county paper claiming that the religion writer for our paper was right about the TLM being allowed more. He also stated correctly how that a local SSPX group was not in connection with Rome. But where I disagreed was where he cited some poll saying that more people preferred the Pauline Rite and that “relatively few” preferred to attend the TLM. The same priest has also claimed multiple times in our parish bulletin that few people understood latin so that is why they got rid of the TLM. Does it ever end? Maybe few people actually prefer it because many never experienced it.

FAR more people prefer the Mass of Pope Paul VI, at least around here. The attendance is easily 100:1 in my diocese, and Tridentine Masses are conveniently located throughout the diocese. At 100:1 that ratio could change dramatically and what your priest would still be true: “more people prefer(red) the Pauline Rite.” The same goes for his other comment – "“relatively few” preferred to attend the TLM.

While perhaps not 100:1, I suspect both of his comments hold true in your diocese as well.

 

[Beret]

We are facing a time of reckoning in my diocese. For years our bishop did not allow the Tridentine Mass. With our new bishop came strong support for the motu proprio. The Tridentine Mass is now located throughout the diocese in nice, centrally located parishes.

The Masses receive a great deal of support from the bishop. He ensures there are plenty of priests willing and available, he helped procure all the necessary furnishings and it gets considerable attention in our diocese bulletin.

At first there was talk amongst some of a “TLM-only parish” which struck me as being rather divisive. Silly actually. Now I think the focus is to pray that the Tridentine Masses don’t die-out on their own from lack of attendance in our parish.

What has stopped thank God is the constant carping of some – “If we ONLY HAD a Tridentine Mass…” Well we do and they aren’t attending…

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

FAR more people prefer the Mass of Pope Paul VI, at least around here. The attendance is easily 100:1 in my diocese, and Tridentine Masses are conveniently located throughout the diocese. At 100:1 that ratio could change dramatically and what your priest would still be true: “more people prefer(red) the Pauline Rite.” The same goes for his other comment – "“relatively few” preferred to attend the TLM.

While perhaps not 100:1, I suspect both of his comments hold true in your diocese as well.

As others have pointed out, the Pauline Mass was imposed on the laity. There was no choice. After the imposition, a large number of Catholics apparently preferred no Mass attendance at all. It reminds me of the communist revolution. After 1917 I suppose one in Russia could say, “Look how many of the people prefer communism! After all, there are so many communists and so few of any other party!”

Now that the TLM is becoming more widely available there is still the prejudice that has always been directed at it: “It’s too complicated. I can’t follow it. I don’t understand Latin.” And it’s true that the TLM is quite counter-cultural (particulary with busy, superficial American culture.)

Well, I believe over time the TLM will grow and make inroads against these prejudices.

 

[Beret]

As others have pointed out, the Pauline Mass was imposed on the laity. There was no choice. After the imposition, a large number of Catholics apparently preferred no Mass attendance at all. It reminds me of the communist revolution. After 1917 I suppose one in Russia could say, “Look how many of the people prefer communism! After all, there are so many communists and so few of any other party!”

Now that the TLM is becoming more widely available there is still the prejudice that has always been directed at it: “It’s too complicated. I can’t follow it. I don’t understand Latin.” And it’s true that the TLM is quite counter-cultural (particulary with busy, superficial American culture.)

Well, I believe over time the TLM will grow and make inroads against these prejudices.

While I think both the Tridentine Mass and motu proprio are wonderful things, it’s well within the Church’s purview to “impose” liturgies on the people – we don’t poll the faithful. It’s certainly not tactful or perhaps even wise, but it’s certainly within the Church’s authority to do so.

This really is a time of reckoning for lovers of the Tridentine Mass in my diocese. For years they almost seemed to subsist on hatred stemming from being denied the Tridentine Mass. With the new bishop that has all changed yet they are not supporting the Masses.