Relatively few catholics prefer the TLM

[Just_1_hr_a_wk]

***The TLM cannot have been ‘unjustly denied’ anyone.

It was the Church’s decision to change and the Church decided how to roll out those changes.***

 

[AlexV]

Sorry, try again.

The TLM was never abrogated. Therefore, its use can be said to be “unjustly denied”, especially after the POPE SAID TO BE GENEROUS IN ALLOWING IT.

Banning it is not “generous” by ANY definition.

In any case, the Church has indeed decided to change. July 7, 2007.

 

[universalindult]

The so-called TLM was unjustly denied to countless Catholics for four decades.

It’s still being denied by clergy (and laity, in some cases) who cannot stand the idea of this liturgy being offered in their territories.

One pastor near here told a family in his parish not to dare to request the TLM (knowing they had traveled to the indult in Pittsburgh in the past.) He subsequently told other parishioners that there was no demand for it and no requests for it.

Another pastor was asked in the fall when he would offer the TLM. His response? “Over my dead body.”

The subject was raised with another pastor in this diocese who replied, and this is a direct quote, “There’s no way I’ll ever offer that [expletive deleted] mass!”

Don’t believe ANY clergy that claim there is no demand for the TLM!

 

[LarryRay]

***The TLM cannot have been ‘unjustly denied’ anyone.

It was the Church’s decision to change and the Church decided how to roll out those changes.***

I hope and pray that when the day comes (and it is coming) that the traditional Latin Mass has retaken its proper position as the majority form in the Roman rite, we’ll be more generous and charitable to the elderly hippies who adhere to the Novus Ordo than they’ve been to us.

 

[Just_1_hr_a_wk]

***It was the Church’s decision to change.

The Church decided how to roll out those changes.

Nothing changes that fact.

---

 

[brotherhrolf]

Don’t forget many WALKED AWAY from the church then too - including priests and religious.

And one has to wonder why. I attended 8 am Mass for a number of years after 1969 because there was no singing. By the mid-70s that had changed and yes, I did walk away. When they brought the a’strummin’ and a’grinnin’ folks to sing at what used to be a tacit Mass, I bailed. It means and meant that much to me. I am not a protestant, I am a Roman Catholic. That’s a pretty simplistic explanation to a complex problem but it has served me well over the years.

What you fail to understand is that the transition from the TLM to the NO was not embraced by all of the faithful. Here I am close to 40 years down the line. I am appalled at what has happened in those years. One thing that has changed is that those of us who kept our mouths shut in the sixties out of obedience to HMC have learned from the rest of y’all. Our mouths are open and there is much shock.

 

[pnewton]

The TLM cannot have been ‘unjustly denied’ anyone.

On a case by case basis, if a priest or bishop allowed either his laziness or his prejudice to influence his decision not to have an indult Mass, as allowed by the Church, then it was a sin against justice. I read an analogy earlier in this thread that every priest needs to remember. The good shepherd will leave the 99 to seek the one sheep that is lost. While I understand the practicality of time restraints and that all these traditionalist Catholics can be headache , but it is a pastor’s obligation to be the hand of Christ in reaching out to them, as much as it is to children, gays, hispanics, etc.

 

[AlexV]

Correct. The Church HAS changed. And that change of July 7, 2007, established DEFINITIVELY and JURIDICALLY that the liturgical books of 1962 (not just the Missal!) are a PART of the Roman Rite, NOT by indult, but because they were never abrogated, and their use cannot be banned in the way it was from c. 1970 to c. 2007.

 

[lukewarm]

I hope and pray that when the day comes (and it is coming) that the traditional Latin Mass has retaken its proper position as the majority form in the Roman rite, we’ll be more generous and charitable to the elderly hippies who adhere to the Novus Ordo than they’ve been to us.

I don’t think that’s going to happen, I wouldn’t mind it myself. I can live with the Novus Ordo but I think going back to Latin all over the world would help truly make the Catholic Church catholic.

But honestly I think that ship has sailed, I don’t think they’ll go back to the TLM as the majority form.

 

[pnewton]

Don’t forget many WALKED AWAY from the church then too - including priests and religious.

And remember too that brotherhrolf is speaking from experience. Of course some walked off. They have for 2000 years, since the rich man left Jesus because he was a man of much wealth. We must respect the wisdom that experience brings those older than those. Brotherholf is describing the general attitude of most Catholics at the time of changes, not every situation. He was there. I wasn’t. If you weren’t either, then listen to his experience and learn from it. I think it also speaks volumes for people like him who have remained faithful through all these changes.

 

[Just_1_hr_a_wk]

On a case by case basis, if a priest or bishop allowed either his laziness or his prejudice to influence his decision not to have an indult Mass, as allowed by the Church, then it was a sin against justice. I read an analogy earlier in this thread that every priest needs to remember. The good shepherd will leave the 99 to seek the one sheep that is lost. While I understand the practicality of time restraints and that all these traditionalist Catholics can be headache , but it is a pastor’s obligation to be the hand of Christ in reaching out to them, as much as it is to children, gays, hispanics, etc.

MY comment was to the remark about the NO being forced and the EF being unjustly denied.

 

[Just_1_hr_a_wk]

And remember too that brotherhrolf is speaking from experience. Of course some walked off. They have for 2000 years, since the rich man left Jesus because he was a man of much wealth. We must respect the wisdom that experience brings those older than those. Brotherholf is describing the general attitude of most Catholics at the time of changes, not every situation. He was there. I wasn’t. If you weren’t either, then listen to his experience and learn from it. I think it also speaks volumes for people like him who have remained faithful through all these changes.

***I was there too.

---

 

[Just_1_hr_a_wk]

And one has to wonder why. I attended 8 am Mass for a number of years after 1969 because there was no singing. By the mid-70s that had changed and yes, I did walk away. When they brought the a’strummin’ and a’grinnin’ folks to sing at what used to be a tacit Mass, I bailed. It means and meant that much to me. I am not a protestant, I am a Roman Catholic. That’s a pretty simplistic explanation to a complex problem but it has served me well over the years.

What you fail to understand is that the transition from the TLM to the NO was not embraced by all of the faithful. Here I am close to 40 years down the line. I am appalled at what has happened in those years. One thing that has changed is that those of us who kept our mouths shut in the sixties out of obedience to HMC have learned from the rest of y’all. Our mouths are open and there is much shock.

I am glad you shared your story.

It is sad you that opted to walk away at that point.

 

[lukewarm]

I am glad you shared your story.

It is sad you that opted to walk away at that point.

What’s wrong with finding another Parish because he didn’t like the stupid guitars and folk music? All he did was go look for a more traditionally minded Parish, not a big deal I can’t stomach a folk Mass either. For daily Mass I go to a Parish I know doesn’t do the sign of peace because I can’t stand gladhanding strangers for no reason, it seems so forced and insincere. So I opt for a Mass where the Pastor skips that part.

 

[Just_1_hr_a_wk]

What’s wrong with finding another Parish because he didn’t like the stupid guitars and folk music? All he did was go look for a more traditionally minded Parish, not a big deal I can’t stomach a folk Mass either. For daily Mass I go to a Parish I know doesn’t do the sign of peace because I can’t stand gladhanding strangers for no reason, it seems so forced and insincere. So I opt for a Mass where the Pastor skips that part.

Most parishes had only 1 Folk Mass a weekend back then - we sort of had 2 (the 2nd one was a ‘children’s mass’ and guitars were all we could manage).

Surely there were other masses on the schedule that were tolerable then.

 

[LarryRay]

But honestly I think that ship has sailed, I don’t think they’ll go back to the TLM as the majority form.

It’s not going to happen overnight, but the writing is on the wall. When the majority continuously atrophies while the minority enjoys healthy growth, it’s just a matter of time before the minority becomes the new majority. And the N.O. establishment is collapsing while the TLM is booming. In terms of vocations, have you heard that traditionalist orders and tradition-oriented seminaries are bursting at the seams? Have you heard that traditionalists are having more children and those children are more likely to embrace the Catholic faith? As the anti-traditionalists practice birth control and watch their children cast off their vestigial Catholicism when they reach adulthood, their future is bleak.

 

[Just_1_hr_a_wk]

It’s not going to happen over night, but the writing is on the wall. When the majority continuously atrophies while the minority enjoys healthy growth, it’s just a matter of time before the minority becomes the new majority. And the N.O. establishment is collapsing while the TLM is booming. In terms of vocations, have you heard that traditionalist orders and tradition-oriented seminaries are bursting at the seams? Have you heard that traditionalists are having more children and those children are more likely to embrace the Catholic faith? As the anti-traditionalists practice birth control and watch their children cast off their vestigial Catholicism when they reach adulthood, their future is bleak.

“Traditional” has been the new form of Cafeteria Catholic for quite a while now.

Maybe we will get yet another new liturgy.

 

[stmaria]

lukewarm;3154552]Everyone in my family who remembers the pre-Vatican II Mass claims it was terribly borring and no one even paid attention, old ladies did their rosary or read from cards while everyone else tried to figure out what was going on. Not one of them prefers the TLM over the Novus Ordo Mass.

Take it for what it’s worth, granted my family isn’t the most devout

,

That is why they prefer the Novus Ordo.** Devout Catholics **prefer the Traditional Mass.

but I tend to agree with the Pastor who said relatively few prefer the TLM. A vast majority of** dedicated Catholics may prefer it, but the vast majority of Catholics are not dedicated **Catholics.

I couldn’t have said it better myself. " **dedicated Catholics **may prefer it but the vast majority of Catholics are **not dedicated **Catholics."

 

[Just_1_hr_a_wk]

That is why they prefer the Novus Ordo.** Devout Catholics **prefer the Traditional Mass.

In the days long before Vat II the Devout Catholics were the ones reading prayer cards and praying the rosary while they ‘heard’ mass.

 

[lukewarm]

In the days long before Vat II the Devout Catholics were the ones reading prayer cards and praying the rosary while they ‘heard’ mass.

I still see old ladies do this at times and it chaffs me, it seems so disrepectful to ignore the Mass to get in your daily routine of novena’s and rosaries.

No matter what I think the % that prefer the TLM is a very small minority even amongst devout Catholics. That’s why I think the ship has sailed for the TLM.