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Brennan_Doherty
Guest
No problem at all in losing our liturgical heritage of the past 1,600 years and beyond?! Interesting perspective, to say the least.
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Walking_Home
Guest
Yup – quite interesting. The law of prayer is the law of belief. If our liturgical heritage can be disposed of --that kinda gives us an eye view of where the Faith can go too.
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Eilish_Maura
Guest
There is more to our liturgical heritage than just what was worked on at Trent.
Not having that particular missal in widespread active use is not the same as ‘disposing’ of it.
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Eilish_Maura
Guest
We have lost and regained bits and pieces of that history as can be seen in OF.
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Walking_Home
Guest
So I’ve heard—from the ones who want the Church to return “early” Church model --where Mass was only a meal of praise and people sat around for communion.
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Brennan_Doherty
Guest
Like what? What Trent codified is our liturgical heritage (in addition to some Eastern Catholic rites).
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Eilish_Maura
Guest
“Was only” – “Do this in Memory of Me” did not count then?? They did not have the Real Presence as we do??
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ac_claire
Guest
Well, Walking Home was being facetious. Some anti-Catholic “Bible Christians” take this view of early church history. By what evidence or on who’s authority--
They never seem to have a good answer for that.Of course, the Mass is primarily a Sacrifice, but also a communal supper. We are the family of God. It isn’t eithor/or, it’s both/and… The Church has always been clear on that.
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TMC
Guest
There is at least one prominent liturgist that does not think we the OF represents a loss of our heritage:
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Walking_Home
Guest
With no Holy Sacrifice and an ordained priest to offer the Sacrifice —there is no Real Presense. Niether you or I as lay persons or any other member of the laity — can make this happen.
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pnewton
Guest
I think the point was that the early church did have priests. It is this time that is often alluded to . The Church has always had ordained priest. It’s that whole apostalic succession thing.
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Scottgun
Guest
Going back to the OP, those who are down on the expansion of the TLM need to make up their minds. One the one hand they say no one is interested, on the other hand they say that more allowance of the TLM will explode the Church. Which is it?
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paramedicgirl
Guest
Let the Church explode, then!
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ProMultis
Guest
It’s not hard to see how some might suggest that the TLM is not well-attended; afterall, in many (but not all) parishes where the TLM has been added, the Mass is often relegated to the odd hours of Sunday, or Saturday morning. This is often the case (but not always). Can the Bishop really expect full attendance when the Mass is offered at 2:30 p.m, Sunday afternoon, e.g.?
Also, the orders devoted to the EF (FSSP, ICK, Cannons Regular) are experiencing huge and measurable increases in new vocations. Additionally, recently, the FSSP hosted several seminar-like sessions for already-ordained-Priests who desired to learn the EF. It was supposed to be a one-time session; but it was so successful, and the waiting list so long, that they’ve had to add several more sessions to accomodate the demand.
Yes, there is interest in the EF–we just need to keep praying for increased vocations to the Trad orders, and that all Catholics will come to embrace the EF, and the Mass will grow.
Also, the orders devoted to the EF (FSSP, ICK, Cannons Regular) are experiencing huge and measurable increases in new vocations. Additionally, recently, the FSSP hosted several seminar-like sessions for already-ordained-Priests who desired to learn the EF. It was supposed to be a one-time session; but it was so successful, and the waiting list so long, that they’ve had to add several more sessions to accomodate the demand.
Yes, there is interest in the EF–we just need to keep praying for increased vocations to the Trad orders, and that all Catholics will come to embrace the EF, and the Mass will grow.
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pnewton
Guest
Now this is a good point. It is something that a priest should consider when deciding to expand the TLM or not. Even if the Mass is the smallest of the week, yet the time slot has always been the smallest, then the determination of success needs to take this into account. If attendence of the smallest Mass over time grows, even if it stays the smallest, maybe it’s time to expand to an easier time for more people to attend.
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Eilish_Maura
Guest
It can be both.
The assorted methods to help the pope see that the TLM needed freeing was based, from what I saw and was told by those who wanted it, was there were many many people who already wanted it and or waiting to return to the church because of it.
Now the tone is VERY different and the focus increases toward trying to pull more people into it.
I have to wonder is it those who have “oppose” the TLM or those who support it that need to make up their minds.
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Scottgun
Guest
I’ve never heard a pro-TLM doing such.
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LarryRay
Guest
The horror, the horror. Why do you have a problem with “pulling more people into” the historic Mass of the Catholic Church?
“What earlier generations held as sacred, remains sacred and great for us too, and it cannot be all of a sudden entirely forbidden or even considered harmful. It behooves all of us to preserve the riches which have developed in the Church’s faith and prayer, and to give them their proper place.”
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TMGallyon85
Guest
I don’t know, some folks seem to have this idea that although Paul Vi didnt abrogate the EF, we can’t go back into history or whatever it is they are painting it as. First we had the rad trads saying the missal of paul Vi was invalid. Now we have people trying to Baptize the Ordinary form as somehow the official or superior rite and the EF is still some second class status. It is extraordinary, but surely not sitting in a dusty closet of history. Most especially if the fans of the Ordinary form want the reform of the reform completed, they have to learn some from the extraordinary form on what was lost. Just as much as the Pope wants the fans of the EF to learn from the OF. The Pope even wanted to update the EF’s Calender so that it was nsync with the current calender. Obviously he isnt planning on banishing it to the Vatican Museum.
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Brennan_Doherty
Guest
Certainly one can say that the two missals don’t contradict each other as there is not anything strictly heretical in the OF. However, here is another quote from the same prominent liturgist:
"The new beginning needs “fathers” who would serve as models, who would not content themselves with just showing the way . . . It is difficult to express in just a few words what is important in this diatribe of liturgists and what is not. But perhaps what I have to say will be of use. J.A. Jungman, one of the truly great liturgists of our century, offered his definition of the liturgy of his time, as it was intended in the West, and he represented it in terms of historical research. He described it as “liturgy which is the fruit of development”.
… What happened after the Council was totally different: in the place of liturgy as the fruit of development came fabricated liturgy.
We left the living process of growth and development to enter the realm of fabrication. There was no longer a desire to continue developing and maturing, as the centuries passed and so this was replaced - as if it were a technical production - with a construction, a banal on-the-spot product."
latin-mass-society.org/ratzshow.htm
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