M
Marilynclssc
Guest
I am a new Catholic and will take the TLM over the NO any day.
- Status
L
LilyM
Guest
What happens, if the TLM is worthwhile, is that the people currently interested in the TLM bring children, grandchildren, friends, what have you. Who then keep going after the older members of the congregation pass away.So If I get you right Eilish Maura, You want the EF available for people who request it. But you dont want it pushed any further. What happens when the groups who did request it pass away? Does the EF pass away into history books? Also who could the time between 1988 and the MP been a growing period. The EF was essentially an underground movement that alot of Bishops ignored and suppressed. Only after the MP did we see a surge in interest because the “indult” on it’s use was basically abolished and any priest wanting to celebrate it could without Bishops approval. In all due respect, I see your comments as wanting to keep the EF at a set number of people and never expand on it.
In addition, if the TLM is worthwhile, then it, like Catholicism and Christianity itself, automatically attracts people in and of itself.
You don’t see Catholics agitating for laws requiring a certain number of Catholic churches to be built in any new town, to make the number of Catholics grow, do you? Because for one thing it simply wouldn’t work anyway.
And yet the number of Catholics has naturally grown anyway. Same with the TLM. Supply follows demand, it doesn’t create it.
O
otjm
Guest
You seem to state some things rather boldly; it would be mice if you could let everyone know the sources of your information.
Over time, things will sort themselves out; and by time, I am talking in years and not months.
Having said that, perhaps some perspective will help. I do not know the source of your information as to how many parishes are celebrating the EF; but let’s just say it is 600.
There are 19, 081 parishes in the US according to CARA statistics. That would mean that about 3.15% of the parishes in the US are celebrating it (and I have no idea how many as I have found no legitimate source for determining this).
It certainly is more parishes than were celebrating it before the MP.
As to bishops , I don’t know that there has been an accurate count of how many have actually banned the EF from their diocese. As to others who may not be moving as fast as some might want, whether that is legitimate or not has not yet been determined.
It will take a goodly bit of time before any realistic comparisons can be made; time for people to request the EF; time for priests to be adequately trained in it (I have heard some things said that are beyond laughable as to how little training is necessary; one only has to look at what training was required by the Church before V2 specifically in how to say the Mass to get a clue); and time for the parishes where it is said to sort it out as to how many people will go regularly.
Time will tell, and not much else.
O
otjm
Guest
The distinction that the Cardinal made was a rather fine distinction in church law, and he did not make that distinction for quite some time after the OF was introduced.
As a practical matter, Rome treated the issue as if it had been abrogated, and so did everyone else. It was not that anyone was misleading anyone else; it was that most people considered that what had been done by the promulgation of the OF was an abrogation, and no one particularly challenged the issue from a legal standpoint.
Keep in mind that JP2 twice approached the issue from the standpoint of an indult, which in practical terms treated the OF as if it had been abrogated. B 16 took a different approach, in large part because the indult was not widely granted; I don’t think anyone ever really bothered to examine the legal aspect of it until he did; and if the indult had been widely granted, I doubt he would have persued the legal issue. There would not have been a need to.
U
universalindult
Guest
This has been said repeatedly, but still needs repeated:
How many Catholics “preferred” the Novus Order when it was imposed?
This thread is offensive by its very nature, and does not belong in this subforum.
How many Catholics “preferred” the Novus Order when it was imposed?
This thread is offensive by its very nature, and does not belong in this subforum.
O
otjm
Guest
It is great to speak with round and fulsome words. As to the “writing on the wall”, let’s look at a few things that have been scribbled there.
Per CARA, Mass attendance (poll results from 2005):
Pre Vatican 2 (born before 1943): 52% every week
Vatican 2 (born 1943 - 1960): 38%
Post Vatican 2 (age 31 - 43): 22%
Post Vatican 2 (age 18 - 30): 21%
While all the talk is going on about the die off of the older generation and the move to the EF as a result, only about 1 in 5 of the younger generation that is supposedly going to rock the Church even goes to Mass regularly.
And please, spare me the bit about how they don’t go because it is so irreverent; the ones who should be most appalled at lack of reverence are the ones who attend the most; and they are not the “hippie” generation. There are a multitude of reasons people don’t go to Mass regularly; the largest one is lack of adequate catechesis.
P
pnewton
Guest
The TLM is a topic of traditional catholicism. Discussing it sure seems to belong here.
P
pnewton
Guest
Is this Mass attendence, or U.S. Mass attendence. I tried to search it but failed.
O
otjm
Guest
Lavada? Afraid? No. He was our archbishop for a period of time; the man may be afraid of what scandal may do to the Church (we went bankrupt from the lawsuits over abuse); he may have been afraid of offending those in Rome (he was good friends of Ratzinger, and that is probably how he got his present job) but if there ever was a nuanced politician, he would be numbered among them. However, afraid of the Ef was not one of his issues. He had a diocese to run and a hat to persue. I don’t suspect that if Ratzinger had been made archbishop of San Francisco, the he would have had an easy time with the bunch down there, and Lavada is no Ratzinger. I think his reaction was way more in terms of keeping the peace among his priests than it was anything to do with either hate of or fear of the EF. and ultimately, he had to play the cards he was handed, and by all accounts, the SF diocese is not one for the faint of heart.
O
otjm
Guest
US.
O
otjm
Guest
Contrary to brotherhrolf, a whole lot of people preferred it, and a whole lot still do. It was not because of changes in rubrics anywhere near as much as the change to English. The vernacualr held, and I suspect will hold much more sway than it is given credit for.
As been said elsewhere in this thread, many people then, and many people now do not have any expertise in liturgy, nor are they much interested in gaining it; they go to Mass to worship. They may be reasonably well catechized; certainly not to the level of some within these fora; but they are not complete ignoramuses either. They wouldn’t know Bugnini from a Lambrogini or a Massarti (and I have probably mis-spelled both - but you get the point), and their eyes would probably start wandering about 60 seconds into an exposition of who he was and what he did or didn’t do. They are people like at my parish, who do sing the hymns in the (God forbid!) OCP hymn book, and they are the same ones who attend 24 hour perpetual devotion, and volunteer on our joint soup kitchen with some Protestant churches, and volunteer at funerals to staff and present the funeral luncheons, and serve on the Knights of Columbus or the prolife group. They are also part of the parish that started the first Catholic grade school in 40 years. They are neither particularly conservative nor liberal; they are Catholic.
As CARA noted: those born before 1943 are the highest in attendance at weekly Mass. They are the ones who should be gone, left in droves over the horrible impostion that the OF was; but they didn’t leave and they are still here. And talking with them, repeatedlyI hear the number one thing they like about the changes after Vatican 2 is “the Mass in English”.
Not the changed rubrics. English.
Is my survey scientifically accurate? Of course not. But I speak to older people, and I haven’t found more than 1 in 50 who is upset with the vernacular. Other issues? Lack of reverence where they have found it? Yes. But not the vernacular.
Keep in mind that the rubrics didn’t all go to hell in a hand basket in the first 6 months after the change; we have had close to 40 years for that to develope.
B
Brennan_Doherty
Guest
I have noticed also that some of the older folks (i.e. born pre-1943) are some of the most faithful mass-goers. I think this has a great deal to do with how it was ingrained in them that you attend Mass no matter what (upon pain of mortal sin). In fact, I think the people responsible for the liturgical changes should thank all those catechists who ingrained in the pre-Vatican II people the necessity of attending Mass (regardless of how well it is celebrated). Otherwise Mass attendance probably would have plummeted even more after 1965.
B
brotherhrolf
Guest
We do not have either the TLM or a NO in Latin in my cathedral parish. We do have a choir that regularly intones Gregorian chant and sings sacred motets in Latin. We also don’t use OCP, Glory and Praise or Gather. I have seen my parish grow from 200 souls in 1983 to well over 1500 families today. St. Patrick’s in New Orleans offers both the TLM and the NO in Latin to standing room only congregations. Keep repeating your mantra of “all we want is the vernacular”.
It sure was nice to go to Mass in the Cathedral in Sevilla, Spain when I was in the Navy in 1971. It was in Latin and, gasp!, I was able to participate. We get lots of French speaking tourists here and it is sad that they cannot participate in Mass as fully because it is in English. The funny thing is that when they come through in Lent when we chant the Kyrie, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei - they chant right alongside of us.
Baby got thrown out with the bathwater. I’ve said that for years.
It sure was nice to go to Mass in the Cathedral in Sevilla, Spain when I was in the Navy in 1971. It was in Latin and, gasp!, I was able to participate. We get lots of French speaking tourists here and it is sad that they cannot participate in Mass as fully because it is in English. The funny thing is that when they come through in Lent when we chant the Kyrie, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei - they chant right alongside of us.
Baby got thrown out with the bathwater. I’ve said that for years.
J
jflare29
Guest
Over 4 tours in the Air Force, I noticed that Mass attendance by Catholics between the ages of 20 and 50 was closer to extinct than to thriving, this despite one duty location having a traditional Mass “readily available” in the city, though not precisely “legal”. A friend and co-worker verified this and commented that he figured that most people didn’t worry much about their faith until they were old enough to be starting to contemplate the cold reality of oncoming death.
I think that’s a more accurate reason for Mass attendance by the elderly than better Catechesis.
Generally speaking, people need to decide they WANT their faith badly enough throughout their adult years to attend; catechesis received during childhood through age 20 may or may not play much of a role.
John
J
jflare29
Guest
I’d be a bit surprised if your French tourists have been hurt much; if they’re traveling the world a bit, they’re likely expecting different languages, including for Mass.
When I was stationed in Europe, Germany specifically, I attended Mass on base in English, in local communities in German, and on vacation in French (Paris). As a side note, I wish we had more Gothic cathedrals here in the US. The Dom in Regensberg and Notre Dame in Paris were wonderful!
Anyway, point is that vernacular Mass works very well, all over the world, even if the local language is not one’s own native tongue. We don’t have an obligation to have everything in Latin.
I’m almost chuckling on this one, really. I went to a TLM yesterday morning; I noticed that it’d be easier for me to “keep up” with the priest if he would:
- Say it in English
- Say it loud enough for me to hear
- Slow down!
B
brotherhrolf
Guest
People have been making that argument since 1968. Actually, the French tourists always look like fish out of water…and, they stand during the consecration while the rest of us are kneeling. Forty years ago, that wouldn’t be the case.
For those of us who grew up with the TLM:
- We understood the Latin
- We knew where we were because we were given missals from the time we made our First Holy Communion
_ It is quite possible to complete the NO in under 25 minutes - particularly at a vigil Mass.
B
Brennan_Doherty
Guest
Catechesis might not really matter from childhood through age 20? Well, that’s a unique perspective probably unheard of in the Church from anyone responsible for the welfare of souls.
I certainly don’t think the statistics were skewed toward the elderly prior to Vatican II. Rather it seems as if the more exclusively people (as in the young) have grown up with the new liturgy (and what passes for catechesis in most churches these days) the less likely they are to go to Mass.
B
Brennan_Doherty
Guest
With the plummeting of Mass attendance after Vatican II and the coincident lack of knowledge and practice of the Faith I don’t see how the vernacular can said to be much of a success (although I don’t blame it all on the vernacular itself). And also there are the poor translations (which becomes a battleground).
Further, it creates instant division in the Church when everyone becomes segregated according to their language group. The Spanish have their Spanish Mass, whites have their English Mass, etc.
B
brotherhrolf
Guest
Hey! I’m not dead yet! And I don’t think that I am elderly in my mid-50s.
But age is a factor precisely because we were catechized so very differently from our children today. We were catechized to recognize that we were entering “into the sacred”. All too often today, the emphasis is on community, fun, and festivity (as posted on another thread).My oldest son at 26 (who grew up in a reverent NO cathedral parish and was exposed to Latin chant and motets) has taken it upon himself to learn the Latin prayers I learned as a child. I think that there is every bit as much yearning to "enter the sacred " in the younger generations as in mine. But, we shall see, won’t we?
I
IrishAm
Guest
I believe to state one’s “preference” in a poll on this matter tends to make the poll immediately suspect.
If I am thinking of just myself, if I had to pick a Mass to attend the remainder of my life to the exclusion of the other, it would be in the venacular.
If, however, I had to pick a Mass that the HMC, the universal church, would use forevermore, it would be TLM.
Mostly, however, I find both of these forms to be important parts of my spiritual life and growth. What a shame that our beautiful liturgy, our sacrificial prayer, has become a cause of dissent within the church.
If I am thinking of just myself, if I had to pick a Mass to attend the remainder of my life to the exclusion of the other, it would be in the venacular.
If, however, I had to pick a Mass that the HMC, the universal church, would use forevermore, it would be TLM.
Mostly, however, I find both of these forms to be important parts of my spiritual life and growth. What a shame that our beautiful liturgy, our sacrificial prayer, has become a cause of dissent within the church.
- Status